weight gaining issues for an ectormorph

hey guys, as u can tell from the title i am an ectomorph, am 5'7 and 112 pounds, its ok to gasp now, i'm used to that kind of reaction whenever i announce my weight, haha!

looking to eventually put on a LOAD of lean mass, put some inches to my arms, and increase my chest size. and also broader shoulders.

i am planning to commit to a massive mass gaining program, and thats where i need your help.

basically i've done my research, mostly reading articles from bodybuilding.com on my body type (the damn skinny people), but i still need some confirmation from some of you here.

to spark off this program, i went to my nutrition store and got myself 2 tubs of weight gainers, if u could take some time off and review it, its right here : http://www.gnc.com/sm-gnc-pro-performance-weight-gainer-2200-gold-chocolate--pi-2133631.html  (click on product info tab to see nutrition content)

i know for an ectomorph, i gotta EAT BIG, lift big and get enough sleep, that is why i thought weight gainers would be a good investment. this is what i plan to eat in a day :
1 serving of mass gainer (2200 cal)
my 3-5 meals
lots of snacks and nutrition bars (so that my body is constantly digesting something)

i figured the total amount of calories would come to about 3500 <-- thats the minimum.

i got some questions regarding the weight gainer i just bought. the instructions for preparing is :

Mix 3 rounded scoops to 24 fl. oz. of cold water or 2% reduced-fat milk. Blend throughly until dissolved

if i do so, am i suppose to consume the whole serving (2200 cal) at ONE GO? or would it be better to take 1 scoop at a time, 3 times a day?

next, my training schedule, i plan to go to the gym 3 times a week, doing low reps, low sets and high weights (which is the most advisable for people of my build). it made sense to me that the serving of weight gainer would be fully utilised on a day that i work out. what about the rest of the days where i don't do weights, will the serving go to waste? (considering that i intend to consume the mass gainer everyday regardless of whether i do weights)


basically i jog quite often. but i read that for people who are looking to put on some weight, jogging should be kept to a minimum. because that combined with my fast metabolism rate burns the fats that i need too rapidly. what are you views on this?

also i do light jogging before every weights session to 'warm up', but i make sure that i get enough rest so that i am at my peak while lifting. is the jogging part necessary? or what are some other ways to warm up?


hope to hear from you guys soon, till then take care!! massive mass gaining starts in 4 days time ;)

first let me say that i'm an ectomorph also, and this is from my experience
first things first measure your bodyfat% fat dosen't go into the amount of food you need to consume.
Then next thing is results take time and dedication.
You need a goal just saying looking biggers not it, how much lean body mass are you looking to gain?
You should be eating 4-5 meals + a post workout shake, the weight gainer shake counts as a meal
Now the weight gainer i would take the weight gainer once a day, and one scoop a day thats all you need if your getting 4 other meals but if your in a rush then you can take it more then once.
and cut the jogging if it's not being used to warm up
also how did you come to the conclusion that you need 3500 cals at the minimum?
you should see gains in you weights at 2700 cals. even at 7% bodyfat
the low reps low sets are better for incresing strength, why don't you try 8-12 reps with 3 set useing weights that allows you to have good form, weights wont do much if yours stoping half way through.
the weight gainer isn't going to waist on your non-workout days since your body rebuilds after you workout and takes about 4-7 days to fully rebuild a perticular muscle group.
and it would be wise to invest some money in some Whey protine and take it post workout
 

nah i didn't conclude that i needed 3500 cals, in fact u're right, i only need 2787 of cals if i followed the calculation method discuss in another part of this forum. what i meant was, if i followed the instructions behind and took 1 serving per day, it would amount to over 3500 cals including the other stuffs that i eat during the day.. would the extra calories do any harm? or rather would it even help? if it doesn't then i'll just consume enough so that my powder can last longer :D


i've read more articles than i can count, and all of em recommend High Intensity Training (HIT) for big/fast gains and i must say i'm pretty convinced.. its not about 'stopping halfway through', more of pushing yourself to failure. years back when i first got my own dumbells, i did 2 sets of 12 biceps curl (1st set 12, 2nd set to failure) and for months i couldn't see results. if HIT doesn't work for me i'll try what u suggested ;)

Keep the jogging to a minimum and do some starting set before every workout. 

i did 2 sets of 12 biceps curl (1st set 12, 2nd set to failure)

The bicept is a very small muscle group and if you weren't training your back chest, and most importantly legs, you won't see real gains.

i've read more articles than i can count, and all of em recommend High Intensity Training (HIT) for big/fast gains and i must say i'm pretty convinced..

almost every type of workout will give you results as long as you keep at it, you should be fine with that form of a workout, but i would try and change the excercises you do every 2 weeks or so since your body adapts. for example if you've been doing tricep pull down for a few weeks do tricep kickbacks

would the extra calories do any harm? or rather would it even help? if it doesn't then i'll just consume enough so that my powder can last longer

well the extra cals, could lead to fat stroage or could just flush out of your system. eat your your target cals for how much you need to gain weight. and you don't need 3 scoops a day thats just overkill. Those weight gainers put a real hole in your wallet, so i wouldn't waist it.

lots of snacks and nutrition bars (so that my body is constantly digesting something)

this really isn't needed if your getting your cals throug your meals then the snacks are just a wasit of money. it it takes an hour+ for your body to digest something so you should be good if you eat something every hour and a 1/2 to 30 but not more then three hours. also if you'r having trouble counting your cals protein and stuff in meals go to www.fitday.com, it saved my life.

A weightgain shake is NOT a meal, you should NEVER substitute a meal for ANY supplement. Supplements are liquids and can be easier absorbed than solids, as a result having a meal of 1 shake is not really effective, ALWAYS have a shake WITH a meal-you'll get better results.

your 100% right infact i'm not using any gainer right now eather, i didn't mean he should be taking the weight gainer alone thank you for the correction, its best if your get some fibrous veggies along with your meals too.
but i still suggest he try and the amount of cals he came up with for a week and if he dosen't see gains raise em 500 cals.

Also strength is not 3 sets of 12, thats size

were you correcting me on that becasue i think thats what i said.
btw link in by no means did i think you went into the  gym pretending to lift

actually i don't really know how to calculate the calories of my meals, lets just say each of my meal is 500 - 800 cals average 

i'm hearing two things here, eat excess calories or my 'needed' (normal +20%) calories?


i shall try out 2 sets of 8-10 since both of u suggested the same thing. then again, how many exercises should i do per muscle group?

Sied technically is more correct with the calories-i am saying you should have more, all im saying is, as a seriously prime good example of a ectomorph (I lose weight constantly even on 3000 calories a day-unless i lift) i personally from experience have found that the calorie calculator puts me in at around 2800 calories I lost nearly 15lbs in 4 months on 3000 calorie diet, so 2800 will get me nowhere

i really didn't use a cal calculator, i was not workning out for 3 months and i wasn't losing weight so i counted thoses cals and they were my mantance calories. you are right that the calorie calculator do not give a perfect estimation. i used the cal calculator and put me mor at 2450 cals but i have to be at 2700 to see weight gains.

 I lost nearly 15lbs in 4 months on 3000 calorie diet, so 2800 will get me nowhere

well you must take in to accuont that your weight is considarbly higher then his, i think by the time he reaches your weight he will need the same amount of cals per day. i think that if he startes at the maximum amount per day then he'll never have the chance to see if the medium works.
ya you should deff bring that up to 3 sets, the intensity is much diffret if your doing 2 sets as apposed to three
one more thing DO NOT LIFT MORE WEIGHT THEN YOU CAN, theres no need for ego, your form will suffer and you won't see as good gains becasue of that.

hmm oh here's another question, when i do sets of 8-10 reps, am i suppose to train with weights that would only allow me to do no more than 10 reps (after mustering all my strength), or am i allowed to use weights that i can do over 10, but stopping at the 10th rep?

if ur refering to 'with weights that only allow me to do no more than 10 reps' , then i imagine that the 2nd and 3rd reps would be do-to-failure? cuz its unlikely that i'll be able to lift past the 7th rep.. if thats what y'all meant then i'll change it to 3 sets..

and what do u think of throwing egg whites into the blender together with my weight gainer? how much protein does egg whites provide?

one egg white from a large egg provids roughly 3-4 grams of protine. i'm not to sure about the egg whites in the weightgainer,i wouldn't do it becasue the gainer has protine and your supposed use that as a supplement to you meals
you should use weights that allow you to go to muscualr faliure aat 10 reps if thats your target, then you rest a minute and do it again, if the last set i find most of the time that people quite on a 7th or so rep becasue they lose motivation and think they can't do it, but if you've reached mucualr faliure at 7 reps thats fine.
btw muscular faliure ir reached when you are unable to preform an excersise with good form not when you can't lift your arm anymore.

go to www.fitday.com register, its free and it will tell you exactly how much nutrition is in almost every food you can think of.

my real name is syed, yous should go into those eating contests like that chinese you'd be world champ. ya it's the same thing with me only not to the same extent as you. When ever i lower my cal by 200-300 cals i start leaning out like crazy. But i usually only lose fat. Last time i did this i lost 7 pounds of fat and .5 pounds of lean body mass

juxtrkov you seem to be very concerned with the the protein you take concidering that it is only 35% of your diet. have you given any thought to where your gona get the other 75%. you should post what you are planing to eat in one day. It dosen't have to be perfect just something so we can get an idea of what you need to add and take out.

1 serving of weight gainer
1 litre of soya bean milk (that would be mixed with gainer) contains 40g of protein in itself
3-4 meals, the food varies, but i try to get at least 30 grams of protein in each of it.
snacks distributed throughout the day, bout 10g protein 600 cals

and fruits

feel free to comment or suggest ;)

ok i have a ball park of how much protein you are getting a day. but you should be getting a certin amount of carbs and fats to balance that out.  also don't think that protein is the only important thing, reacerch has shown that "good" fat increace the level of testosterone and reduce bodyfat as well as lowering muscle catabolism (that should be very important to us since our body type find it somewhat difficult to retain muscle mass).

snacks distributed throughout the day, bout 10g protein 600 cals
and fruits

cut the snacks out for now you should be getting enough nutrince with your meals.
also eating most fruit, and sugary snacks,(alone) alone will result in a sharp insuln spike with will cause your body to only use only glocuse as fuel and will not draw its fuel from fat stores, therefore compiling more fat stores. 

1 serving of weight gainer

if you must drink the weight gainer i would recommend you take it with some fibrous veggis, and some almonds(i am giving you what you need at the very least, since school is comming up and you might not be able to carry around a whole meal with you.) do not take the Meal replacement as a meal it will never be as good as the real thing it's just a replacement.
did you go to fitday yet?

yup i've created an account there
  
oh and i failed to mention, i got a month of holiday starting today!! hehehe that is why i decided to commit right now..

also could you tell me what i can do about the 'good fat' thing? how to get it settled etc.. i'll definitely do some research on it, but after i come back from chalet in 2 days time (weds)..

the fats that you would be looking to get would be poly-unshaturated omaga-3 fats (found in fish, flax seed, sunflower seeds, ans soy beans), poly-unshaturated omega-6 fats (derived from plants and plant oils aswell as flax seed oil), and mono-unshaturated (found in olive oil canola oil and nut, as well as flax seed oil)
*they should say the types of fat the hae on the back if you don't want to look it up.

ive used the weight gainer 1850 from gnc and along with a diet where i was eating about 300 cals a day put 5 solid punds on in about 3 weeks.  Good Luck

Monday: legs/ back / forearms

Squats – 2 x 8-10
Leg press – 2 x 8-10
Stiff leg barbell good morning – 2 x 8-10
Standing calves raises – 2 x 8-10
Seated calves raises – 2 x 8-10


Wednesday: shoulders/ triceps

Military press – 2 x 4 -7
Seated overhead dumbbell press – 2 x 4 -7
Cable pushdowns – 2 x 8-10
Close grip bench press – 2 x 8-10


Friday : biceps/ chest

Dumbbell curls – 2 x 8-10
Barbell curls – 2 x 8-10
Bench press – 2 x 8-10
Dip (chest version) – 2 x 8-10


feel free to comment on my new workout plan, i've taken all the 'good' workouts and compiled it together. i also kept in mind not to work 2 big body parts on the same day. there it goes :)

Note: at anytime if i feel that i can take any more muscle destroying, i would go for the 3rd set.

it looks pretty good i'd still saty do 3 sets with a weight taht allowes you to do that.
insted of barbell curls try and do close grip(8-12 inches apart) chin ups, you'll get a much better workout with them. try and keep your workout time under 60 mins.
see what's working for you, if your tries aren't fully recoved from your wed. workout when you workout fri. then you might have to put triceps on monday. Oh and lose the forearm there used in almost every workout you don't really need to do a specific set for them. also put in some ab workout. I know you have a six pack and or you don't wana lose wieght that way or some other excuse that us ecto's come up with. this is for core strenght, abs are a muscle too and they need to get a workout aswell. for now our bulking and you want your whole body to grow you can worry about definition and stuff later.

She asked me "If it came to having sex or eating, which one would you choose?" I answered: "Could we have sex after I ate?"
thats dedication fokes

oh i realised tt i forgot to include forearm exercises too, anyway since u said i can drop em, i'm more than glad to do so, haha.. cuz i actualy found forearms abit difficult to dedicate an isolation exercise to.. and i heard that wrists curls are bad for the wrists ??

yup i plan to do situps after every session, as u know its pretty easy for ppl like us to maintain those 6-packs :D

u also made a point, i think i shall swoop weds workout with monday's.. then there'll be more days of rest between each arm exercise.. that way i can lift at my peak..

why don't you do situps  every monday. that way you can let your abs recover and there not stressed every 2 days. if you like doing abs alot do it mon. and fri. don't do it every seccion. btw your abs workout counts to your gym time which should be around 60 mins.
p.s. your abs might lose some definition becasue your bulking and doing some abs will help abit. my abs have actully become better defind in the time that i'm bulking becasue i do abs. plus there stronger.

She asked me "If it came to having sex or eating, which one would you choose?" I answered: "Could we have sex after I ate?"
thats dedication fokes

in about a week, i have gained almost 3 kg (about 6.6 pounds), tho i doubt any of those could be lean muscles, hah but i think the defining part can come later rite? anyway, can protein bars be considered as a meal replacer? cuz sometimes i got no time or mood to go buy a meal, was thinking of an alternative.. protein bars, good? 

i have gained almost 3 kg (about 6.6 pounds0

thats great!! don't be descouraged if the gains slow down some of that is also water retention.

 tho i doubt any of those could be lean muscles, hah but i think the defining part can come later rite?

your right all of that is prob not lean muscle, i'd say that at the most 3.5-4 pounds would be lean muscle, but remember you also gaind some weight becasue water retention. and yes your bulking right now you don't have to pay much attention to defention. Yet worry about getting to a weight you like and then cut to where you wana be.

can protein bars be considered as a meal replacer? cuz sometimes i got no time or mood to go buy a meal, was thinking of an alternative.. protein bars, good? 

NO!
protien bars are just what the claim a protien bar. You should cook ahead of time have a meal or two on stand by if your leaving and take it with you. If you can't do that, i presume you still have the meal replacment powder from GCN? well take around 1 scoop and put it in some water and grabs some celery sticks and eat that up. That is much better the a protien bar, much. remember a meal replacmet is never as good as a real meal.

She asked me "If it came to having sex or eating, which one would you choose?" I answered: "Could we have sex after I ate?"
thats dedication fokes

No wonder ectos think its hard to gain

This info is gonna make him think he is a "hard gainer!"

There are so many things not right with this conversation...I would have to work hard to address all the myths that I want to correct!

Let me post something from another discussion in here...
 
Note that this info applies to the "ectomorph" wishing to gain mass not to everyone!

right now my calorie intake is MENTAL, and im gaining little weight, is this my body getting used to high amounts of food?

Sort of.  In some people, the body responds to hypercaloric diets with increased TSH...and thus a hyperactive metabolism.

Start with the LOWEST caloric intake that gets you gains and add food (calories) as you gain muscle.

You DO NOT want to eat more frequently than every 3 hours.  Every time you eat it raises your metabolism!

You do not want to go to sleep on a protein shake that will spike your metabolism and hormone levels...you want to have a balanced whole food meal that will keep the body stable.

 if so would it be better to lower it a lot so my body starts to go into "storage" mode and starts packing on mass

Mmmm, no..then you would likely start to go into survival mode and preferentially BURN muscle and if anything store FAT mass...and lose weight.

Remember that most of the info you hear bandied about is really for the meso and endo morphs.

, because i remember reading a post by you about how the more protein you intake the more your body gets used to it and doesnt intake all you eat

That is combining 2 concepts.

Protein is thermic.  20-25 calories are required to process every 100 calories of protein you consume.

The take-home point here is excessively increasing protein is counter productive to an ectomorph if the goal is weight gain!!!
All ectos seem to do it thinking it is the way to gain weight and then they suffer for it!

The body acclimates to the amount of protein you take in.  Excess leads to increasing the rate of protein wasting...and increased metabolism!

You can modify the RATIO of the nutrients to LOWER your metabolic rate while at the same time still meeting energy needs..but meeting them with fat and carbs so that the body can use the protein for repair and building.

You can look at the info in this post about varying the ratio...
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/For_Gaining_Mass/m_111173/tm.htm

You want to look at a ratio like this:
Fat - 30%
Carbs - 55%
Protein - 15%

Now, it may take as much as 3 weeks for your body to start to respond to the change in diet!
Especially if you are reducing protein intake quite a bit!!!

Give it the time to acclimate.

Meal replacements are not really supplements, they are food.  You should consume a fibrous food with a meal replacement drink.  However, they will cause you to lose weight if you use a lot of them.  This weight is gastric clearing....that is the weight of food and the water it absorbs in the gut.

In the meantime your training...
You want to focus on Hypertrophy specific training...
Mostly in the 10 rep range...with a little heavy work and a little light high rep work.
You do not want to train to failure every workout...
The workouts will be aerobic...

You should not be doing cardio.

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dan, i don't think i ever told him to consume more protien, i think i actully told him to stop focuing on protein so much, becasue that is not the only important thing. also about the meal replasment all i'm traing to say is that they won't work as well as whole foods.
juxtrkov-
that post dan wrote is prob one of the best on this fourm, i learned alot from it and you should read that.

She asked me "If it came to having sex or eating, which one would you choose?" I answered: "Could we have sex after I ate?"
thats dedication fokes

I Actually had to write that twice....in the first pass I said "as Sayed and Lynx said...have a whole food with the Meal Replacement Drinks.."

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i hate when i have to write things twice i alwasy forgot to write something the 2nd time

She asked me "If it came to having sex or eating, which one would you choose?" I answered: "Could we have sex after I ate?"
thats dedication fokes

wow dan posted here! (WooooooooooHOOOOO!!!)


i've read your posts, very informative for begginers like me, keep it up ;) and thx for the new insight

today i did tris and shoulders.. and here's my problem: i feel that both parts collides with one another. cuz the shoulder and triceps exercises seems to depend on each other in one way or another, after i finish doing my tris, i find it harder to lift my max for shoulders, cuz my tris would be kinda sore already, any recommendations anyone??

I assume the effected movement is a pressing movement.
 
Change the order of exercises. 
or Train them on different days.
or Train them seperated by other exercises in the days routine to allow tris to rest before hittin delts.
 
It is like training triceps before chest...you just should not do it.

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