the best time to bulk?

simple enough question. Is it better to bulk during strength training, or hypertrophy?

Hypertrophy occurs through eating, strength occurs through adding weight to the bar. Train for strength and eat for hypertrophy, you don't "train" for hypertrophy. Size is determined by caloric intake, energy consumption VS expansion. Train for strength and eat for hypertrophy and you'll get big and strong.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

is it possible though that a bulking diet would be more effective with a high volume/hypertrophy program for muscle size vs. like a strength program because more calories would be converted to muscle instead of fat? When do most people here bulk up?

nomis_simon


is it possible though that a bulking diet would be more effective with a high volume/hypertrophy program for muscle size vs. like a strength program because more calories would be converted to muscle instead of fat? When do most people here bulk up?

High volume or high intensity workouts will both drain you. Volume workouts is something that the pros use, but keep in mind they're genetic freaks on anabolic steroids. High intensity workouts train mainly the fast twitch fibers, although the slow twitch fibers would still be utilized.

If you were to go on a high calorie bulking diet and a "strength" program like Bill Starrs, you wouldn't get fat. The calories would still be used, if you're worried about obesity you can add cardio in on your off days. I love lifting sessions on MWF and cardio sessions on TRS. Simple and effective.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


Hypertrophy occurs through eating, strength occurs through adding weight to the bar. Train for strength and eat for hypertrophy, you don't "train" for hypertrophy. Size is determined by caloric intake, energy consumption VS expansion. Train for strength and eat for hypertrophy and you'll get big and strong.

wut?

Hypertrophy routines are a specific way of training.

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whether you believe that their are specific programs for specific things, hypertrophy begins with a caloric surplus.

No one is getting any bigger on any program if they arent eating enough.

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whether you believe that their are specific programs for specific things, hypertrophy begins with a caloric surplus.

No one is getting any bigger on any program if they arent eating enough.

Exactly.

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But the OP was asking if it's better to bulk with a strength routine or hypertrophy routine, not how hypertrophy occurs.

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There's no such thing as a "hypertrophy" routine. If you're referring to the routines like HST, that's just a name. Just like "Bill Starr 5 X 5" yet all days don't involve 5 X 5, it's just a name.

No routine is the result of hypertrophy. Hypertrophy is in the calorie surplus and if you have a calorie surplus it results with any routine. If won't result with any routine without the surplus making no routine for "hypertrophy".

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Again I'll say, the OP was asking whether a strength routine, typically classed as a 5x5 routine or low rep high intenstiy, or routine classed as hypertrophy, typically higher rep with an alotted period of weeks to adjust your rep and weight range over, was better for bulking. There is such a thing and difference between strength work and hypertrophy work. These are seperate terms from what hypertrophy 'is'.

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_Virtuoso_

Again I'll say, the OP was asking whether a strength routine, typically classed as a 5x5 routine or low rep high intenstiy, or routine classed as hypertrophy, typically higher rep with an alotted period of weeks to adjust your rep and weight range over, was better for bulking. There is such a thing and difference between strength work and hypertrophy work. These are seperate terms from what hypertrophy 'is'.

Again, I'll say exactly what I said earlier. 5 X 5 and 3 X 10 does not make one "hypertrophy" and one "strength". 5 reps is not the determining factor, "strength" training is simply adding weight to the bar to attempt a myofibrillar hypertrophy, you can do this with any amount of volume. 5 X 5 just allows better progress, 3 X 10 and 5 X 5 is a 5 rep difference, an extra 5 reps does not determine if you gain size of not.

Most people that choose 5 X 5 simply allows them to progress in weight more, but if they're eating over maintaince they'll get stronger. A "hypertrophy" routine would produce hypertrophy regardless of caloric intake seeing the routine is suppose to produce hypertrophy. Not true, hypertrophy (muscle gain) and cutting (weight loss) is all determined by calories. Not rep range, not routine.

And there is no such thing as hypertrophy "work". It's done in the kitchen, no routine, no rep range, no exercises will produce an increase in size without calories, your body would have nothing to grow from. With this in mind, any routine will produce hypertrophy if the calories are right.

The whole 8-12 reps = hypertrophy, 4-8 reps = strength is just a myth. I went from 130lbs to 190lbs using low reps like 3 X 5 and 5 X 5 and during this time period my bodyfat had not even increased by double digits, I started at 130lbs @ 14% bodyfat and within a 2 year period was 190lbs at 20%, . I spent a year before hand not going below 8 reps and gained a little bit of nothing. For me, lower reps have produced more hypertrophy. This was also taking six months break in between cycles.

"Rep range" and / or "routine" is not the determining factor for size. Muscle grows from progressive overload and high calories, workout to workout progress in any form. Whether that form be though increase of reps, sets, exercises, weight, it doesn't matter. If you're eating over maintaince and making workout to workout progress  you grow. Regardless of your routine, regardless of your current rep range.

A progressive resistance approach decreases volume in order to make linear increments in intensity, people grow from those all the time.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I skimmed through that post in about 5 seconds because your'e missing the point. It's not about rep range, I never said it was -  not alone. It's about adjusting that rep range along with the intensity over a set period of weeks, knowing what your rep maxes are - for example 15 rep max, 10 rep max, 8 rep max etc. and attempting to add a percentage to your max as you progress through your scheduled weeks. I'm not going to bother continuing on with this conversation though, because I honestly don't think you have looked into what hypertrophy routines actually are, nor do I want to sift through internet pages to prove it to you.

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There is no such thing as a "hypertrophy" routine.

Hypertrophy occurs when enough of the proper calories are consumed and progressive overload, any routine allows this.

If you're eating for size you'll gain it with any routine.

Some routines just have that name for the attention, like HST.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Hypertrophy routines are not saying 'this is a routine for hypertrophy to occur as opposed to a strength routine'. Routines listed as a hypertrophy routines will have a certain way of training that relates them to other routines regarded as hypertrophy routines, and that seperates them from other routines which don't have these same principles. Forget the names hypertrophy and strength. Call them A and B. Routines called A have a set way of training similar to all others in category A that seperates them from B and any other letter.

Just google the phrase and you'll understand how to train 'hypertrophy'.



It does not mean this routine promotes hypertrophy (the building of muscle) more than another routine.

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I still say hypertrophy is something that you eat for.

If you train for strength and eat for hypertrophy you'll get big and strong.

Bodybuilders tend to use high volume workouts because 1) they're on steroids and 2) they're on an advanced level of training. They workout for the "pump" and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which is mainly fluid.

Hypertrophy routines are just a name.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


I still say hypertrophy is something that you eat for.

If you train for strength and eat for hypertrophy you'll get big and strong.

I agree with this statement.
Theres no magic routine that going to blow you up all of the sudden.
Eat plenty
Progressively overload the muscle
get plenty of rest
You'll see results!

Current Stack: HDROL,Celltech,Superpump 250, Glutamine,Beta alanine,Whey protein.

bulkingup

I agree with this statement.
Theres no magic routine that going to blow you up all of the sudden.
Eat plenty
Progressively overload the muscle
get plenty of rest
You'll see results!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Ok so I will agree that training for hypertrophy and muscle size begins with diet, however, the idea of hypertrophy training involves nailing every fiber of the muscle and causing the whole micro tear mumbo jumbo, often times this will require a bit more reps than a traditional strength program, I notice a difference, but then again you can cause hypertrophy with a strength program and calorie surplus as well as something with a bit more volume.  Main concern will always need to be the calories consumed.

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Seos-Log-2008-m442008.aspx

Seo that's because every rep range works. 8-12 reps work, their pros are more micro damage and their cons are less weight. 4-6 reps work, their pros are more weight and cons are less micro damage.

The difference in 3 X 10 and 5 X 5 is 5 total reps. That's not enough to determine you're going to get strong on one and big on another.

3  X 10 = works

5 X 5 = works

3 X 5 = works

3 X 3 = works but will take longer ... due to low volume

4 X 10 = works

Bodybuilders tend to use 5 X 10 and etc. and it works for them but I don't imagine a beginner would gain much from it. So reps and level of experience are to be considered too.

Every program ever made will work if you stick with it, so will every rep range that ends up with a total volume of 15-40 reps.

As long as your basic compound pushes and pulls are there, you'll grow.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

You take the name too literally. Just because you are doing a strength routine doesn't mean you are going to gain more strength than when doing hypertrophy, but in general all strength routines have high intensity and low reps. And vice versa with a hypertrophy routine  - it doesnt mean 'this routine is the routine for hypertrophy to occur'.

Take Madcows and Rippetoes basic advisory routines, both are focused as strength routines, both include low reps with high intensity, however one has you using percentages of previous weights to ramp up your maxes. Infact a lot of routines labelled and advertised as 'strength routines' have this same principle of using a percentage of a previous weeks lift and adding it on to the start of the next weeks lift. These are generally strength routines.

Hypertrophy routines generally have you doing isolations whether it's in splitt or fullbody, with more reps and a set period of weeks to adjust those reps and your maxes over.


If you want to you can call hypertrophy routines, 'A lot of reps with a lot of iso's' routines if that would help you understand that it isn't promoting itself as THE routine for hypertrophy to occur best. But the name for this type of training in the bodybuilding world is generally a hypertrophy routine.


If not, I suggest you start writing to a few of the figureheads in the bodybuilding world who are promoting these strength routines and complain. After all, who are they to tell you hypertrophy (a lot of reps and iso's) wont make you stronger? Oh wait, they aren't telling you that.

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_Virtuoso_

You take the name too literally. Just because you are doing a strength routine doesn't mean you are going to gain more strength than when doing hypertrophy, but in general all strength routines have high intensity and low reps. And vice versa with a hypertrophy routine  - it doesnt mean 'this routine is the routine for hypertrophy to occur'.

Exactly. So if both produce hypertrophy what makes one "hypertrophy routine" and what makes another "strength routine"? Both routines can and will produce both if the diet is right. What do you categorize Max-OT as? It has the isolations and low reps.

If not, I suggest you start writing to a few of the figureheads in the bodybuilding world who are promoting these strength routines and complain. After all, who are they to tell you hypertrophy (a lot of reps and iso's) wont make you stronger? Oh wait, they aren't telling you that.

I'm not going to message / email anyone complaining about their program. Every program works. Low reps tend to allow you to progress better in weight. But higher reps being better for hypertrophy is just a myth. I respond better from lower reps. A few others share the same opinion. Sure, 10 reps work for size and sure it can work better for some people than low reps. But when I see a routine with isolations and high reps I don't categorize is as a hypertrophy routine. It's just a regular routine with different principles to me. Some may respond better to it than Rippetoes or Madcow and some may not respond as well, which is why you can't categorize them.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP

_Virtuoso_

You take the name too literally. Just because you are doing a strength routine doesn't mean you are going to gain more strength than when doing hypertrophy, but in general all strength routines have high intensity and low reps. And vice versa with a hypertrophy routine  - it doesnt mean 'this routine is the routine for hypertrophy to occur'.

Exactly. So if both produce hypertrophy what makes one "hypertrophy routine" and what makes another "strength routine"? Both routines can and will produce both if the diet is right. What do you categorize Max-OT as? It has the isolations and low reps.

If not, I suggest you start writing to a few of the figureheads in the bodybuilding world who are promoting these strength routines and complain. After all, who are they to tell you hypertrophy (a lot of reps and iso's) wont make you stronger? Oh wait, they aren't telling you that.

I'm not going to message / email anyone complaining about their program. Every program works. Low reps tend to allow you to progress better in weight. But higher reps being better for hypertrophy is just a myth. I respond better from lower reps. A few others share the same opinion. Sure, 10 reps work for size and sure it can work better for some people than low reps. But when I see a routine with isolations and high reps I don't categorize is as a hypertrophy routine. It's just a regular routine with different principles to me. Some may respond better to it than Rippetoes or Madcow and some may not respond as well, which is why you can't categorize them.

The point is that when people see these a high rep, isolation, set week routine - they do infact class it as just that. Just as when people see a 3x5 or 5x5 routine, it is generally referred to as a strength routine and regarded as an ideal routine to increase your maxes - your strength. My whole point in the first place.

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It's classified that but it doesn't make them hypertrophy or strength routines. Every routine will produce both (if the diet is right), some will produce more than others.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant