squats vs leg press?

So i am 20 yrs old and have bad knee problems (hereditary i think) but nothing has helped, joint juice, glucosamine...nothin! And when i squat it kills them, light or heavy weight. I hate this cuz i know squats are important for mass building which is my goal. When i do leg presses it doesnt seem to bother them, so my question is if i switch leg presses for squats will they still be as effective with gaining mass? thanks

They wont be as effective at releasing your test but pain is your bodys way of telling you to stop. I've just switched squats for leg press also due to squats putting massive strain on an injury. You shouldn't be risking anything in your goal for a better physique at the end of the day, so if leg press solves the problem then do leg press.

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

Leg presses should effect them just as much, as with any other quad movement, since it involved knee extension. The only difference is you can utilize hip drive and go a bit lower (involving more of the posterior chain) with a squat.

You're probably not squatting below parallel and probably squatting with  bad form. Post a video so we can critique.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

lol...

leg press will put just as much stress if not more on the knees.

in fact proper squating technique will help strengthin your knee's. Perhaps you should read/watch/look up how to squat properly.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

thanks for the fast replies guys, i appreciate the advice!

I wonder how your foot placement and knees relative to toes (knees beyond toes or not) compares between the two exercises.  If they are the same and the depth of the move are the same, seems like similar stresses would occur.  Can you do bodyweight squats w/o pain?  Do knees go beyond toes?  It would be great if you could learn a pain-free way to do squats.  They're the king of them all, imo.
 
Also what about leg extensions, which have more tension at full extension than squats or leg presses.  May be a way to strengthen knee area tendons, etc.  Also do you work hams well w/SLDLs and leg curls.  Sometimes when you don't balance the push with the pull, you run into trouble.  What say you experts:  Am I off my rocker or on the $?

I think it's fair to say that if squats are causing pain and leg presses aren't then it's enough of movment difference to make a reasonable strain difference on the knees. It's daft to continue squatting if your knees are telling you 'this is causing damage', which is essentially what pain is. My advice is not to squat, but it's your choice.

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    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

Check your form on squats.


If not, just keep up the leg presses. It won't be THAT huge of a deal.

Red PittBull's Log.

My friend whom I workout with claims the same thing.  He had knee surgery and cant do squats, but said leg presses are fine.  I've watched him squat tho, and he does high bars with a torso that is too vertical.  That's enough to make anyone's knee hurt.  

I'm not sure if I buy the "can't do squats but can leg press", but then again I haven't been in that situation so I don't know.  All I know is when I had low back pain, leg press hurt it alot more than squats, but never been able to test it with knee pain tho.

I don't buy it at all, they require the same motion, extension at the knee during the concentric contraction. The similarities of the two movements are neither are hardly ever done right.

If you squat below parallel, the tension from the knees shifts to the glutes and hamstrings and this combination with the lower back is what we refer to as the posterior chain.

The reason the squat overloads more of the posterior chain than a leg press is not all of the dependence during the action is given to the knees, the hips take a big more of the workload allowing slightly more posterior chain utilization than just simply pushing with your knees at a 45 degree angle.

You should never extend your hips during the squat, you should always pull them back, kind of like you're sticking your ass out at the person behind you and you should shove your feet out at a comfortable angle. Most people say 30 degrees but I don't do 30 degrees, I find it bastardy awkward and feel it limits my range of motion. You should never keep your feet parallel though, your toes should be pointed out and your knees will naturally follow your toes. 

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

And knees should never be beyond toes, right?  That's what the butt back accomplishes, right?

knee's go over your toes, dont buy into that nonsense.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Knees go beyond toes or knees don't exceed the toes?

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

they will travel past your toes, however knee movement occurs during the first part of the descent idealy and wont travel any further during the rest of the movement. 

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Isn't your knees and hips suppose to break simultaneously?

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


Isn't your knees and hips suppose to break simultaneously?

NO!!!

u always want to break at the hips first

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

Not according to Mark Rippetoe. They break simultaneously.

CR: So you initiate the descent with the knees breaking first, before the hips?


MR: No, the knees break at the same time the hips break. The knees then quit moving forward when they get as far as they will go.


CR: I’m glad you cleared that up. I was almost under the impression that you wanted the knee break to occur prior to the hips breaking, and this surprised me.


MR: No, the knees do not break before the hips break. It is simultaneous. The best way to handle this is not to tell them to go forward with the knees but coach them to push the knees out. If they go out, they’ll break properly. The set of cues for each set of individual errors may be completely different. Some people I have to tell to bounce out of the bottom of the squat, some I have to say don’t bounce. Some people will over do things. I know how I want it to look and then I have to explain that to people.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

You sir, are correct. and posted your own proof no doubt, good show old bean.

MVP


Isn't your knees and hips suppose to break simultaneously?

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

In an ideal squat they break simultaneously, but daniel's post is still important because most people just think about immediately breaking their knees when going down, which tends to shift their weight forward of where it should be and can lead to the knees going too far forward.  Most people learning how to squat should think about breaking their hips first (or sitting down in an invisible chair) and it will make their form alot better.  Once you get the hang of it, you can break both joints at the same time without shifting too far forward, like this:

http://www.youtube.com/...;feature=player_embedded

When it comes to squats, deadlifts, and power cleans. I don't know a better coach than Rippetoe, especially when it comes to form.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Question:  Doesn't the squat form also have a lot to do with the shape of your body frame and the condition of your knees?  I believe I have long legs compared to my torso.  My knees have some issues related to years of running.  My femurs are so long that when they are parallel to the floor my knees would be well in front of my toes were my torso not bent over significantly to maintain balance.  This, I know, puts a lot of the load work on my back/glutes/hams I'm guessing and less on the quads.  I may have that totally wrong.  Help me out.  The mechanics and load forces of the squat just fascinate me.  But in short, does form somewhat depend on the individual?  When I try to max out on the squat my limitation seems to be my back strength as opposed to leg strength.  Does that mean my form sucks?  Or I need to develop low back strength?  Thanks!
 
Also in yoga my instructor is always telling us,  "Never let your knees go beyond your toes!"

damn, i always thought that the hips should break first.

i guess i should start kicking my knees out at the same time. i have always just told people if they asked me to break at the hips first because other wise they would always just break their knees first

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

the only thing that essentially changes is the degree's of the angles your body will make while performing the lift. Its much more apparent with the deadlift then it is with the squat. I believe its even more important for taller people to perform low bar squats.

I have a short torso, long limb body. so distance and angles of my lifts are going to be different and need to be different due to my body structure lets say compared to an average guy at 5'9".

Mvp already explained how the squat works. When you drop below parallel much of the stress is transferred from the knees to the posterior chain.

This is why its important to go full range of motion, because stopping above parallel is having all that weight and stress burdened by the knee's, which is bad.

The knee movement in the squat should happen at the top and break simultaneously with the hips, and at that point have already gotten to their destination and shouldnt travel further no more. If your doing the squats correctly your knees follow your toes, and will pass them. Dont worry about that "No knee's past toes" nonsense.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Leg presses wouldn't affect the posterior chain nearly as much as the squats for two reasons:

1) There is no resistance applied to the back of the body (which is why a front squat recruits more of the quads than a back squat).

2) You cannot utilize force from the hips that would come from the posterior chain.

So leg presses alone is just overdeveloped knee extensors and hip flexsors and underdeveloped hip extensors and knee flexsors waiting to happen. If you can only do leg presses, that as mentioned, I find hard to believe if you're doing squats correctly. You'll need to include some GHR's.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Are there any youtubes you guys know of that show good squat form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kawBY5p29fQ

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP,
    Wow, that is very enlightening!  I thought feet that far apart and feet/legs that angled on the diagonal was called sumo.  No?  I have a tendency to do what he is saying late in a set:  my quads drive the butt up easily but then the torso approaches horizontal and the load on the lower back (and hams/glutes I'm guessing) becomes extreme.  I have to strain to lift the torso toward vertical at that point.  Is my situation common?  How do I address it.  Back extensions, SLDLs, leg curls?  Very interesting video.  I think I've been doing it all wrong.  My feet are maybe 15 inches apart, toes pointing only slightly out rather than forward.  At the start of my set my torso probably stays near a constant 45 degrees except when the legs are straightened.

MVP


Leg presses wouldn't affect the posterior chain nearly as much as the squats for two reasons:

1) There is no resistance applied to the back of the body (which is why a front squat recruits more of the quads than a back squat).

2) You cannot utilize force from the hips that would come from the posterior chain.

So leg presses alone is just overdeveloped knee extensors and hip flexsors and underdeveloped hip extensors and knee flexsors waiting to happen. If you can only do leg presses, that as mentioned, I find hard to believe if you're doing squats correctly. You'll need to include some GHR's.

If it were normally someone saying that squats hurt their knees, then I would agree that their form is likely off, however he has had long term problems with his knees, so assuming his form is correct then there is obviously problems further than form that should be taken note of.

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

Leg presses should be just as hard (if not harder) on his knees than a squat due to limitations of hips and posterior chain utilization in comparison of the two.

The concentric contraction on both lifts require essentially the same motion - knee extension against gravity. The exception is that the squat allows lower positioning with a knees out starting position therefore allowing a deeper range of motion resulting in more demand from the hips and posterior chain therefore less emphasis is placed on the knees in comparison of the two. With this in mind I don't see how the leg press would not affect the knees and squats would, both with good form.

The leg press factors similar motion but without support from the hips, glutes, and hamstrings and if either of the two would be harder on the knees it should be the leg press.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Well there's a lot of conflicting theories and opinion when it comes to squats, such as which are the dominant muscles used, the primary muscles worked, when you should break etc. and even though some will say theoretically squats should stress the knees less, the evidence here says otherwise (in this case at least). Assuming, and all we can do is assume, that he has correct form - then if squats light or heavy kill his knees, then he obviously shouldn't be doing them despite what any squat science says.

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!