Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet???

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (MikeMahony)

Sat, 05 Jul 2008 12:08:28 GMT

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: twistedlink

They might have enough for everyday tasks...but most people with a carb diet have trouble in workouts as there glycogen runs low...

I know tissues can use fats (apart from nerve) but theyre much more efficient at using sugars, i guarantee if you slowly crept onto a normal carb diet youd gain a tonne of endurance and strength...but it doesnt matter if youre looking for size lol.

not really. my strength on a keto diet didnt suffer at all. you have enough for everyday tasks with just a standard keto diet (skd). with a tkd/ckd you generally have enough for intense workouts.
i've talked to a lot of people doing a CKD or TKD and i'd say maybe 5-10% say they feel weaker. the rest either say they feel the same in strength or experienced a big jump in strength

David is correct. I have been making some great gains in the gym while doing AD. Strength isn't an issue. My lifts are increasing tremendously. I have no complaints there.

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (David1991)

Sat, 05 Jul 2008 08:54:33 GMT

ORIGINAL: twistedlink

They might have enough for everyday tasks...but most people with a carb diet have trouble in workouts as there glycogen runs low...

I know tissues can use fats (apart from nerve) but theyre much more efficient at using sugars, i guarantee if you slowly crept onto a normal carb diet youd gain a tonne of endurance and strength...but it doesnt matter if youre looking for size lol.

not really. my strength on a keto diet didnt suffer at all. you have enough for everyday tasks with just a standard keto diet (skd). with a tkd/ckd you generally have enough for intense workouts.
i've talked to a lot of people doing a CKD or TKD and i'd say maybe 5-10% say they feel weaker. the rest either say they feel the same in strength or experienced a big jump in strength

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (twistedlink)

Sat, 05 Jul 2008 08:48:53 GMT

They might have enough for everyday tasks...but most people with a carb diet have trouble in workouts as there glycogen runs low...

I know tissues can use fats (apart from nerve) but theyre much more efficient at using sugars, i guarantee if you slowly crept onto a normal carb diet youd gain a tonne of endurance and strength...but it doesnt matter if youre looking for size lol.

Ehhhh...I dont really have enough time to read it really, i have 3 jobs now and im also doing supplementary uni work...so right now im totally worn out to do anything.

Lately ive been doing workouts after work and i come back home and just literally pass out on the sofa and sleep for like 5 hours, and then my evenings gone and i have to work the next morning, bastards!

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (David1991)

Sat, 05 Jul 2008 08:34:12 GMT

i understand what your saying twisted. i cant keep arguing/debating about it though, i'm getting worn out

just one point about what you said earlier. it's not that the body gets more "used" to using fat and better at it, it's that it has to use it for the most part since it doesnt have adequate carbs. and the tissues that do need glycogen have enough with a CKD/TKD

if your at all interested i have a book online i could send you about it, it's about 300 pages and goes into the basic science of it as well as applying it

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (twistedlink)

Sat, 05 Jul 2008 08:20:12 GMT

Here's the deal though. All the research I've done indicates that good fat increases testosterone and growth hormone production in the human body.

Heres the deal though. All the research I've done indicates that steroids increases testosterone and growth hormone production in the human body.

This is my point.

Just because it gets results doesnt mean its good for you

Down to the chemistry, if glycerol is turned into sugars (glucose rings) and glycerol is on a fat molecule of a 1:1 ratio, then every mol of fat will make 1 mol of glucose.

1 mol of fat weighs a lot MORE than 1 mol of glucose, as the other parts of the fat arent used.

I mean, for every 1 fat there is 1 glycerol molecule, therefore every 1 mol of fat, there is 1 mol of glycerol, and as glycerol is also converted to glucose at a ratio of 1:1 from my knowledge (i got this from mike who posted the glycerol part, if its not 1:1 ratio thats not my fault) then surely every mol of glycerol makes 1 mol of glucose.

1 mol of salt has 1 mol of sodium and 1 mol of chlorine, 1/2 mol of salt has 1/2 mol of sodium and half a mol of chlorine

1 mol of fat has 1/2 mol of fatty acid chains, and 1/2 mol of glycerol.

I may very well be wrong in this...But this is stoichiometry...and without getting into yet another academic battle, im sh!thot at stoich, the only thing i may have wrong is the 1:1 ratio of glycerol to glucose, i didnt research into that, mikemahony told us that.

However glycerol weighs 92 grams per mol, glucose weighs 180, and 2 grams will be lost from the hydrogens being eliminated from the structure, making 180 grams, so its 2 glycerols per glucose, but that doesnt change much, it just means the glucose i calculated has to be halfed, but it still ends up as a LOT of potential glucose.

Im not trashing this diet, i know it works, i understand how it works, all im trying to say is be careful with it, you want me to do a little research?

Okay, the littlest research possibe would be wikipedia (despite its admitted innaccuracies)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet#Adverse_effects

Hypoglycemia is not something that fun, and it states it can happen on "Initial dieting"

Meaning your first one, temporary short term or not.

And thats just doing a little research, imagine what i could dig up if i had the time to research it properly?

As to your body getting more used to using fats as energy, right, the body already does that, thats WHY it stores fat, that was an evolutionary response, the body is great at burning fat, thats why it stores it, because its energy on tap, and it can burn it like wildfire if it NEEDS to.

Some tissues require glucose, not to mention most tissues perform better on glucose, such as brain tissue, and muscle tissue.

Glycogen reserves take a lot longer to replenish on a low carb diet, because the body has to synthesise the glucose>glycogen itself, rather than simply make glycogen from blood sugar levels.

It cant because your blood sugar levels are mind boggingly hypoglycemia-esquely low.

It gets results, but it has a price.

Im not saying its a bad diet, im not saying its a great diet either, all i ever meant was its an extreme diet, it changes metabolic pathways to an extreme, as a result, treat it with respect and caution, thats all i ever meant by my posts, by all means do the diet, and by all means love your gains, just be cautious, respect your body, and get occasional bloodwork done etc etc and make sure youre doing okay, if you are, good, carry on if you wish to, if youre not, consider a time off stage.

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (MikeMahony)

Sat, 05 Jul 2008 07:43:41 GMT

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: MikeMahony

David,

In a sample meal plan for one week, the Metabolic Diet (Anabolic Diet) site has a 3000 calorie plan that has 135 g. of carbs on Monday, 137 g. of carbs on Tuesday, 101 g. of carbs on Wednesday, 138 g. of carbs on Thursday, 125 g. of carbs on Friday, 316 g. of carbs on Saturday, 283 g. of carbs on Sunday.

As you see, he definintely does not insist on 50 g. of carbs at all. In fact, one of the cool aspects (as mentioned in a previous post) is the flexibility built into the plan.

that surprises me that he has it that high.

the thing is though, the AD diet is different than a keto diet. clearly it works for many people and i believe cycling low carbs with high carbs is a good idea regardless of if it's keto or not. im just saying that diet would clearly not put you into ketosis. doesnt mean it wouldnt work just as well (or better) than a keto diet for some.

mike whats your workout split like as far as which days they fall on?

Right now I workout Monday, Wednesday and Friday on a full body routine. It is arranged in supersets with push/pull. It works quite well for me. I am in and out of the gym in just under an hour. I do cardio Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (David1991)

Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:24:31 GMT

ORIGINAL: MikeMahony

David,

In a sample meal plan for one week, the Metabolic Diet (Anabolic Diet) site has a 3000 calorie plan that has 135 g. of carbs on Monday, 137 g. of carbs on Tuesday, 101 g. of carbs on Wednesday, 138 g. of carbs on Thursday, 125 g. of carbs on Friday, 316 g. of carbs on Saturday, 283 g. of carbs on Sunday.

As you see, he definintely does not insist on 50 g. of carbs at all. In fact, one of the cool aspects (as mentioned in a previous post) is the flexibility built into the plan.

that surprises me that he has it that high.

the thing is though, the AD diet is different than a keto diet. clearly it works for many people and i believe cycling low carbs with high carbs is a good idea regardless of if it's keto or not. im just saying that diet would clearly not put you into ketosis. doesnt mean it wouldnt work just as well (or better) than a keto diet for some.

mike whats your workout split like as far as which days they fall on?

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (stalloneIs#1toMe)

Fri, 04 Jul 2008 17:47:03 GMT

wow you guys made my brain blowout

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (MikeMahony)

Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:52:12 GMT

David,

In a sample meal plan for one week, the Metabolic Diet (Anabolic Diet) site has a 3000 calorie plan that has 135 g. of carbs on Monday, 137 g. of carbs on Tuesday, 101 g. of carbs on Wednesday, 138 g. of carbs on Thursday, 125 g. of carbs on Friday, 316 g. of carbs on Saturday, 283 g. of carbs on Sunday.

As you see, he definintely does not insist on 50 g. of carbs at all. In fact, one of the cool aspects (as mentioned in a previous post) is the flexibility built into the plan.

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (MikeMahony)

Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:51:19 GMT

Here's the deal though. All the research I've done indicates that good fat increases testosterone and growth hormone production in the human body. If you read through the Optimum Anabolics program he suggests adding some EFA into your PWO shake because it increases testosterone and growth hormone production. I researched it (I don't like believing everything I read) and found it to be true.

The premise behind the Anabolic Diet is that by decreasing your carbs and increasing your protein and fat, you manage to keep a good caloric number (something that generally fails to happen on most low carb diets) and you force your body to burn fat for fuel rather than carbs for fuel. Your body eventually (fast too) becomes accustomed to using fat for energy and will look to its own fat stores for energy needs. At the same time, your body is getting the benefit of the EFAs in your diet, increasing testosterone production and growth hormone production.

My own discovery came when I tried the Velocity Diet. I found that my body rapidly dropped fat when I was on a high protein diet. I also noticed that I didn't really crave carbs. When I was done with the Velocity Diet I wanted to bulk, so I started reading about the Anabolic Diet and liked everything I read. In addition, the science behind it fit with what I already knew.

The system is much more flexible than David leads us to believe. The doctor says that if you find that you have low energy mid-week, carb up a little on Wednesday. He even makes comments that with this type of diet (low low carb Monday through Friday, high carb Saturday and Sunday) if you found yourself at a birthday celebration at work and a slice of cake was offered to you, you sould do the socially acceptable thing and eat the cake because you've kept the carbs so low that your body won't even flinch at the slight blip in carbs that day.

I personally find the AD easy to stick to. I don't have to think very much about what I'm doing with food. I just eat and eat. I'm gaining muscle and losing fat simultaneously. My body just likes the mix I'm getting of carbs/protein/fat. Obviously the key to all of this is finding what works best for you.

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (twistedlink)

Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:06:43 GMT

why would you think half a mol of fats can make half a mol of glucose. if you have half a mole of fat only about 1/20 of a mole of glucose would be made from the triglycerides being broken down. that basically makes the rest of your calculations pointless unless i'm missing something

wrong, the body wont just have glycerol sitting in it, its going to use most if not all glycerin, it does this by converting it to glucose, and glycerin is on every fat molecule, if you eat half a mol of fat, youre going to get half a mol of glucose, thats simply chemistry.........

Il explain it better later.

A balanced diet can make slower gains yes, it depends on bodytype

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (David1991)

Fri, 04 Jul 2008 07:01:54 GMT

ORIGINAL: twistedlink

Half a mol of fats can obviously then make half a mol of glucose from the glycerol.

Half a mol of glucose...glucoses RMM 180 grams per mol

why would you think half a mol of fats can make half a mol of glucose. if you have half a mole of fat only about 1/20 of a mole of glucose would be made from the triglycerides being broken down. that basically makes the rest of your calculations pointless unless i'm missing something

ORIGINAL: twistedlink

There is also evidence this diet does cause diabetes...If you read any unbiased science book about the krebs cycle, and then diabetes, you can see a direct link between ketogenic diets and diabetes...but whatever, you clearly love the keto diet and will hear nothing about it.

i dont love the keto diet, but i think it can work well. so can a balanced diet obviously. and i would love to see a real study showing that a keto diet can cause diabetes any more so than a balanced diet

ORIGINAL: twistedlink

Its a bit silly to preach about keto and say nothing ill of it david, everytime a little snag is hit its always defended by "but thats not much of a problem"

the reason i talk about the good in it is because people here are obsessed with talking trash about it without ever having tried it or spending the time to do a little research. of course it has some problems but not too many IMO, especially if only done for a short term

ORIGINAL: twistedlink

Maybe not to you personally, but when it comes to crunch time all diets have ill effects and problems.

A balanced diet does not, however a balanced diet grows muscle relatively slower compared to other methods (such as keto, carb cycling, protein cycling etc etc)

a balanced diet grows muscle slower than a keto diet or carb cycling...?

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (twistedlink)

Fri, 04 Jul 2008 00:31:21 GMT

Right, you use carb up periods to handle the workouts etc.....thats my point, why not just have the carbs all the time?

Your body obviously needs glucose, in large amounts, lets go with that Equation

Glycerol is formed of C3 H8 O3 which weighs 92 grams per mol

Fats in general are branches about...10 carbons long to 15 carbons long, lets go with 13, 13 carbons with hydrogens (however its unsaturated so there will be less) is around 135 grams per mol.

So thats 227 grams per mol of fat (average of course)

125 grams of fat equates to about half a mol per day of fats (I dont need this to be terribly accurate to prove my point)

Half a mol of fats can obviously then make half a mol of glucose from the glycerol.

Half a mol of glucose...glucoses RMM 180 grams per mol

we have made half a mol, equating to 90 grams of glucose made possible from the fat intake, then lets take into account he has 70 grams also in there, which will be broken down into glucose, and we get a nice 160 grams

It however doesnt stop there, lets say you lose a modest 1lbs of fat weight during that week, thats 450 grams of fat, which is around 2 mols of it,, and 2 mols of fat makes 2 mols of glucose, which is another 360 grams, i would divide it by 7, but saturdays and sundays are carb up days so its doubtful fat will be burned to any degree at all then, so il divide it by 5

360 / 5 = 72 grams, so now the glucose weight is up to 232 grams

You can also take into account the possibility of gluconeogenesis from alanine, however thatd just be pedantic.

My point is if the body needs it, itl do its best to make it, and chances are under your keto diet, your body is making all the required glucose, which of course, is great, but why not just give it direct glucose?

Why make your liver go through such hard tasks of converting all that glycerol?

Its not designed to do that on large everyday scales, only starvation scales.

You have a business, you can be self sufficient and get your own materials, or you can buy them off someone else and have to increase your prices for the same profit

whats better?

I dont see the point in FORCING the body to make glucose when its much easier to simply eat carbs.

not that it's necessary to actually be in ketosis to get many of the benefits of low carbs

you also said ketosis isnt nessecary for the benefits of low carbs, so what does low carbs do???
Biologically speaking?

You dont have to be in ketosis (high fats) to benefit low carbs, but then you question mikemahony for having high protein, well if ketosis isnt important for low carbs, then surely him having more protein is not a problem at all, in your quote above logically goes to this conclusion.

What does low carbs do?
All it does is force the body to make them, which is my point, youre on a low carb diet, but your body is still internally carb moderate, carb neutral.

It takes what it needs and stores the rest as fat, its the same here, itl make the amount it needs, and thats it, your starving your body of carbs for no damn reason, as itl just make them, its just putting unnessecary pressure on the body

There is also evidence this diet does cause diabetes...If you read any unbiased science book about the krebs cycle, and then diabetes, you can see a direct link between ketogenic diets and diabetes...but whatever, you clearly love the keto diet and will hear nothing about it.

High carb diets have problems
Low carb diets have problems
High protein diets have problems
Low protein diets have problems
High fat diets have problems
Low fat diets have problems

No bodybuilding diet will be truly "problem free" because were purposefully making out bodies a lot bigger than theyre designed to be, sure they CAN grow, it doesnt mean they should, its still putting the body under pressure.

Its a bit silly to preach about keto and say nothing ill of it david, everytime a little snag is hit its always defended by "but thats not much of a problem"

Maybe not to you personally, but when it comes to crunch time all diets have ill effects and problems.

A balanced diet does not, however a balanced diet grows muscle relatively slower compared to other methods (such as keto, carb cycling, protein cycling etc etc)

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (MikeMahony)

Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:37:31 GMT

ORIGINAL: David1991

100g? i havent completed the book (dont know if i will) but he always said keep it under 50 if i remember, better if 30.

still thats a ton of protein, but im getting about 2g per pound of BW right now and thats been fine.

whats ur workout split like? i would think you'd want to have an intense workout saturday morning.

He's got meal plans that show higher calories and higher carbs. At 2 g. of protein per pound, I'd be at 400 g. of protein and clearly I'm way under that.

RE: Keto Diet? I dont understand how you loose fat on a high fat diet??? (David1991)

Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:23:50 GMT

100g? i havent completed the book (dont know if i will) but he always said keep it under 50 if i remember, better if 30.

still thats a ton of protein, but im getting about 2g per pound of BW right now and thats been fine.

whats ur workout split like? i would think you'd want to have an intense workout saturday morning.