Fat Burn + Muscle Growth

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (Yet)

Sat, 24 May 2008 11:05:01 GMT

I'm impressed how civil you guys kept this.

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (kingkebabs)

Sat, 24 May 2008 07:39:46 GMT

Yep, recovery is more than healing muscle tissue.

The benefit a person reaps from massage will depend on style, intensity and rate of recovery which is often reflective of their level of experience.

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (coldfire)

Sat, 24 May 2008 06:19:31 GMT

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

"Recovery" is advancement in healing.

Stress and associated damage is the opposite of healing.

Massage of muscle tissue in any form helps to elleviate tightness working individual trigger points in the muscle which allow the muscle tissue as a whole to work more efficiently usually beyond that of the previous (un-massaged) state. The collective problems pertaining to the muscle tissue is a direct result of stress.

You specifically asked why sports massage works in an attempt to defend your theory that supplemental work has little use.

Massage is one such plausable method which proves my hypothesis correct. Accessory / supplemental work does have a use.

I'm simply stating that if you disagree then you'll have to present to me your information (factual or theory) relating to why massage is not effective in recovery. This is the simple structure of debate.

There's little point in ripping apart heart and lungs and the anatomy of the shoulder and benefits of massage if the ultimate raw argument pertaining to all factors is; "Is accessory work beneficial when performed alongside regular weight training?" of which is the answer is "yes".

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear.

I don't view recovery as recovery of the muscles. This is not very useful for average trainee. Maybe some elite athletes require massage to work on their trigger points or something else.

I view recovery as something more global. Recovery of the soft tissue is only a small part which doesn't matter much IMO to someone who is not a professional athlete.

This is why I think that for the average trainee accessory training is of little use.

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (kingkebabs)

Sat, 24 May 2008 05:55:10 GMT

"Recovery" is advancement in healing.

Stress and associated damage is the opposite of healing.

Massage of muscle tissue in any form helps to elleviate tightness working individual trigger points in the muscle which allow the muscle tissue as a whole to work more efficiently usually beyond that of the previous (un-massaged) state. The collective problems pertaining to the muscle tissue is a direct result of stress.

You specifically asked why sports massage works in an attempt to defend your theory that supplemental work has little use.

Massage is one such plausable method which proves my hypothesis correct. Accessory / supplemental work does have a use.

I'm simply stating that if you disagree then you'll have to present to me your information (factual or theory) relating to why massage is not effective in recovery. This is the simple structure of debate.

There's little point in ripping apart heart and lungs and the anatomy of the shoulder and benefits of massage if the ultimate raw argument pertaining to all factors is; "Is accessory work beneficial when performed alongside regular weight training?" of which is the answer is "yes".

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (coldfire)

Sat, 24 May 2008 05:17:39 GMT

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

Why wouldn't dedicated focus upon a problem be beneficial to solving the problem?

You are attempting to argue with what should be common sense.

Squatting with light weight is not recovery. It's stress in a lighter form.

Instead of me going in depth about autogenic inhibition and the like - of which reliable, factual information is readily available, you give your explaination why foam rolling and sports massage is not beneficial to recovery.

I'm sure your controversial theories will be sought after in the world pertaining to physiology where many people who practice these methods on a regular basis with great effect would beg to differ.

Break some ice.

OK, then what is considered recovery?

I have no controversial theories. I am asking you how foam rollers help and what problems are you solving. I am not sure why you feel the need to defend yourself.

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (Yet)

Sat, 24 May 2008 05:12:13 GMT

Coldfire and KingKebabs discussing something is pretty good to read, since they're both pretty similar.

This thread delivers.

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (kingkebabs)

Sat, 24 May 2008 04:32:55 GMT

Why wouldn't dedicated focus upon a problem be beneficial to solving the problem?

You are attempting to argue with what should be common sense.

Squatting with light weight is not recovery. It's stress in a lighter form.

Instead of me going in depth about autogenic inhibition and the like - of which reliable, factual information is readily available, you give your explaination why foam rolling and sports massage is not beneficial to recovery.

I'm sure your controversial theories will be sought after in the world pertaining to physiology where many people who practice these methods on a regular basis with great effect would beg to differ.

Break some ice.

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (coldfire)

Sat, 24 May 2008 04:06:06 GMT

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
The discussion is addressing the methods we use to tend to the imbalances.

You are pressing the claim that imbalances can be addressed in weight training itself and accessory work (in an attempt to prevent injury) has little use.

Yes, that's what I claim. What I was asking is how accessory work helps.

How does sports massage aid recovery?

How indeed?

Do we recover by squatting?

You could, with light weights.

I am just asking for explanation, not just claims.

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (kingkebabs)

Sat, 24 May 2008 03:45:33 GMT

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
Are you suggesting that dedicated cuff conditioning is worthless simply because the external rotators are worked in OHP?

Please elaborate upon your theory that injury prevention practice is actually regular weight training itself.

I don't quite understand what is injury prevention training. Injury comes either from muscle imbalances, bad form with too heavy weight or lack of flexibility (which also causes bad form). So, the only thing I can think of as injury prevention is fixing imbalances and flexiblity. Once you don't have these, how do you train for injury prevention?

The discussion is addressing the methods we use to tend to the imbalances.

You are pressing the claim that imbalances can be addressed in weight training itself and accessory work (in an attempt to prevent injury) has little use.

Rotator cuff injury is usually imbalance between the strength of external and internal rotators. The external rotators are trained well in OH press but not in bench press. Hence, many people who bench press, but don't press, have shoulder problems. These problems were practically non-existent before the bench press. See the connection?

Again, the point of the discussion is fixing the imbalances in training VS fixing the imbalances in training whilst realising the value of accessory training also.

On the contrary most imbalances come as a result of bad habits in everyday life.

ORIGINAL: KingKebabs
For recovery, maintenance of flexibility (and reflective injury prevention)?

ORIGINAL: coldfire

Squats will maintain all the flexibility you need for squatting. You can add stretching to the end of your workout if you want.

It does not take away from the fact that the activity can contribute further towards efficiency and quality of muscle tissue.

ORIGINAL: coldfire
Now, how foam rollers aid recovery?

How does sports massage aid recovery?

Do we recover by squatting?

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (coldfire)

Sat, 24 May 2008 01:12:07 GMT

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
Are you suggesting that dedicated cuff conditioning is worthless simply because the external rotators are worked in OHP?

Please elaborate upon your theory that injury prevention practice is actually regular weight training itself.

I don't quite understand what is injury prevention training. Injury comes either from muscle imbalances, bad form with too heavy weight or lack of flexibility (which also causes bad form). So, the only thing I can think of as injury prevention is fixing imbalances and flexiblity. Once you don't have these, how do you train for injury prevention?

Rotator cuff injury is usually imbalance between the strength of external and internal rotators. The external rotators are trained well in OH press but not in bench press. Hence, many people who bench press, but don't press, have shoulder problems. These problems were practically non-existent before the bench press. See the connection?

For recovery, maintenance of flexibility (and reflective injury prevention)?

Squats will maintain all the flexibility you need for squatting. You can add stretching to the end of your workout if you want.

Now, how foam rollers aid recovery?

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (boomersooner1331)

Fri, 23 May 2008 21:23:35 GMT

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you are absolutely right, yes, you don't have to cycle them, not at all. but in cutting your carbs alot you'll get flat over a certain period of time because you're not fueling your body. if you cycle them, you can work off the weight but still maintain muscle.

Of course my way would take much, MUCH longer, i think it'd be alittle bit better (if you're patient enought)

once again, i'm not trying to start an argument or anything

ok first of all people have to stop quoting 9 billion qoutes lol.

i agree with boomer here except for the fact that he said his way will take much MUCH longer.
cycling carbs will allow u to lose fat quickly like any low carb diet would do except it will prevent losing more muscle and "looking flat". i've recently done NROL FL-1 and FL-2. with 1 i didnt carb cycle and i lost about 1/2lb. of muscle and 1/2lb. of fat.
with 2 i've cycled and i've lost about 4lb. of fat and only about 1/2lb. of muscle.

carb cycling is more efficient and the better option IMO

you're right, i probably over exaggerated the MUCH alittle bit. but you're right

i need to cut a few more pounds off before a competition, so i'm gonna cycle my carbs like that. hope it works

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (David1991)

Fri, 23 May 2008 17:01:22 GMT

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you are absolutely right, yes, you don't have to cycle them, not at all. but in cutting your carbs alot you'll get flat over a certain period of time because you're not fueling your body. if you cycle them, you can work off the weight but still maintain muscle.

Of course my way would take much, MUCH longer, i think it'd be alittle bit better (if you're patient enought)

once again, i'm not trying to start an argument or anything

ok first of all people have to stop quoting 9 billion qoutes lol.

i agree with boomer here except for the fact that he said his way will take much MUCH longer.
cycling carbs will allow u to lose fat quickly like any low carb diet would do except it will prevent losing more muscle and "looking flat". i've recently done NROL FL-1 and FL-2. with 1 i didnt carb cycle and i lost about 1/2lb. of muscle and 1/2lb. of fat.
with 2 i've cycled and i've lost about 4lb. of fat and only about 1/2lb. of muscle.

carb cycling is more efficient and the better option IMO

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (boomersooner1331)

Fri, 23 May 2008 15:56:54 GMT

ORIGINAL: RedJeep

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: RedJeep

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you cant cut your carbs out like that you have to cycle the carbs..IE..full carb days...three quarter carb days and half carb days and they atre cycles according to your body fat measurements...you want to go into a competition at 5 percent or less if possible.....So the advice of just cutting all carbs out can make you flat....and hurt your physique

who was that towards?

my bad. it was for redjeep. i had originally agreed with him, but i was thinking about it and that's what i came up with

I think you just want to argue. I never said cut out carbs completely. I said lower carbs.

trust me dude, i don't want to argue. i never said you said to cut them completely. i was just saying you have to cycle them.

this isn't supposed to be an argumentative post. it's just something i realized alittle bit ago

You dont have to cycle either, that is just one way to do it. why do you think that?

you are absolutely right, yes, you don't have to cycle them, not at all. but in cutting your carbs alot you'll get flat over a certain period of time because you're not fueling your body. if you cycle them, you can work off the weight but still maintain muscle.

Of course my way would take much, MUCH longer, i think it'd be alittle bit better (if you're patient enought)

once again, i'm not trying to start an argument or anything

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (RedJeep)

Fri, 23 May 2008 15:01:09 GMT

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: RedJeep

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: boomersooner1331

you cant cut your carbs out like that you have to cycle the carbs..IE..full carb days...three quarter carb days and half carb days and they atre cycles according to your body fat measurements...you want to go into a competition at 5 percent or less if possible.....So the advice of just cutting all carbs out can make you flat....and hurt your physique

who was that towards?

my bad. it was for redjeep. i had originally agreed with him, but i was thinking about it and that's what i came up with

I think you just want to argue. I never said cut out carbs completely. I said lower carbs.

trust me dude, i don't want to argue. i never said you said to cut them completely. i was just saying you have to cycle them.

this isn't supposed to be an argumentative post. it's just something i realized alittle bit ago

You dont have to cycle either, that is just one way to do it. why do you think that?

RE: Fat Burn + Muscle Growth (kingkebabs)

Fri, 23 May 2008 14:31:48 GMT

The primary function of external rotators is shoulder stability, which is trained well with overhead pressing. The fact that they can cause rotation when isolated doesn't mean they need to be trained this way.

Are you suggesting that dedicated cuff conditioning is worthless simply because the external rotators are worked in OHP?

Please elaborate upon your theory that injury prevention practice is actually regular weight training itself.

About the foam roller, if you are doing that after you have good squat depth, I would certainly ask why.

For recovery, maintenance of flexibility (and reflective injury prevention)?

Let's make this clear. Are you suggesting that aerobic training is what improves circulation, or any type of training that improves cardiorespiratory fitness will work too?

Regular practice of all or any type of cardio will improve circulation.