Before bed on Keto?

RE: Before bed on Keto? (danmirage)

Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:23:52 GMT

during swim today i was thinking about what u said about protein wasting enzymes

if i do decide to try the low carb bulking approach with carbs about 32-33% and protein at about 41% is it possible that i could actually gain more fat pure 1lb. gained because my body is wasting so much protein from a high protein diet that it can afford to put on fat but not much muscle? i was thinking about it and it's something i thought would be a good idea to ask u about first

Its more complex that even that.

Control it through controlling stress, recovery, nutrient timing, training duration, overall nutrition, hydration, etc....

You have more protein than you need and not as much carbs as your brain wants for basic function (you are borderline) so it starts cluconeogenisis...production of glucose from proteins....or protein wasting. It does this to feed the various systems and processes that require glucose, since you are not suplpying a ready source of it.

Fat production is not one of those processes. You should be favoring glucagon production vs insulin. Glucagon helps to break tissue down where insulin helps to build it up.

RE: Before bed on Keto? (danmirage)

Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:18:49 GMT

Got it!

RE: Before bed on Keto? (David1991)

Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:46:43 GMT

alright thanks,
to be honest i kind of want to keep the lower carbs because ive seen others get good gains with low carbs and high protein and i wanted to see for myself how my body responds. i will make sure to take everything u've said into consideration but at the same time i dont want to be one of those people who never try anything different/controversial just because its against what ive heard, especially considering that in the past ive tried a ratio of about 41c/33p/26f and similar ratio's but have never tried low carb bulking. again, i know its not 'ideal' and i have definite doubts but idk if im comfortable just switching to so much higher carbs all of the sudden without even giving myself time to see how bulking with lower carbs works.

RE: Before bed on Keto? (danmirage)

Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:58:34 GMT

Ah, ok, that makes sense. Not drastic but more of the same.

When you lower the protein and bump up the carb %s you will likely stop most of the weight and muscle loss.

My opinion
I would step down to here...with a training week off.
160g protein 250g carbs 62g fat
2220 cals about 30p/45c/25f

And give it a week.

After a week if you still lose muscle weight...then come up to 2400...the next week you are ready to go into bulking.

The following week (week 3) bring up the carb/fat calories (2600 at 25p/45c/30f %) only unless there is still muscle loss, then raise it accross the board. But you should be maknig gains already so just hold tight until they level out, then raise the carb/fat to 2600 at 25p/45c/30f %

Make sure you get carbs/protein pre and post all your cardio during this week. Any cardio that lasts more than 30 minutes, sip carbs and BCAA if you have them. Just sip it fairly diluted and still drink your water.

You want to keep preserving muscle!

RE: Before bed on Keto? (David1991)

Sun, 13 Jan 2008 05:48:18 GMT

ORIGINAL: danmirage

What diet change did you make before that 1.5 loss? From what to what.

Respond to changes after drastic alterations in diet and training very conservatively.

Go at least two weeks before making additional drastic changes based on measuremnts in this case.

What you experienced on a brain starvation diet (Keto) is not really comperable to experiences on a normal balanced diet.

my diet was
TOTALS: 2216 calories, 249.4g protein, 167.825g carbs, 60.34g fat
45.1% protein 30.35% carbs 24.55% fat

i lost .75lb. and changed it to...
TOTALS: 2409.25 calories, 268.75g protein, 181.355g carbs, 69.53g fat
44.33% protein 29.91% carbs 25.80% fat

and lost 1.5lb. (and like i said this most recent week i did 1 extra cardio session [3 swim practices and 1 HIIT session, compared to the 3 HIIT sessions and like 13 laps the week before])

RE: Before bed on Keto? (danmirage)

Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:28:58 GMT

What diet change did you make before that 1.5 loss? From what to what.

Respond to changes after drastic alterations in diet and training very conservatively.

Go at least two weeks before making additional drastic changes based on measuremnts in this case.

What you experienced on a brain starvation diet (Keto) is not really comperable to experiences on a normal balanced diet.

RE: Before bed on Keto? (David1991)

Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:20:27 GMT

ORIGINAL: danmirage

increases in calories

Dial it back.

If you increased FAT..just drop the % back down and see if that helps.

well it was pretty weird actually. i just switched to bulking and even with dropping cardio from 7+ sessions to 3 shorter sessions i still lost .75lb. so i added 200 calories with the same ratio's and had 1 more cardio session (had swim so i couldnt help it) and i lost 1.5lb, (according to calipers 0.77lb. was fat lost and 0.73lb. was muscle lost). i was surprised so i dont think adding calories was a bad thing and i was going to add 250 calories this week (300 on workout days, 200 on cardio days).

about fat though, i never had any problems when on keto. (except acne)

RE: Before bed on Keto? (danmirage)

Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:13:39 GMT

increases in calories

Dial it back.

If you increased FAT..just drop the % back down and see if that helps.

RE: Before bed on Keto? (David1991)

Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:07:31 GMT

alright thanks for all these explanations.

just thinking about what u said for the fats, i wonder if my increases in calories recently or what im eating is bad because my stomachs been upset a lot lately about an hour after i eat

RE: Before bed on Keto? (danmirage)

Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:59:53 GMT

1. u said i should have that baseline and that going lower carb (would that just be for a cut or within a bulk?) should be gradual...should the change from my current ratio's be done all at once or gradually increase carbs/decrease protein?

Make the change all at once with NO change in calories consumed. Use the calories as the baseline calories!

Ideally take a week of. But otherwise train no more than 40 mintes at a stretch at first.

If you are going to cycle cut/bulk style by lowering carbs every other cycle...then a normal say 45/25/30 ratio is the baseline. Then you simply drop carb levels for the lean cycle.

When cutting then you gradually drop carbs from baseline like stairs.

2. is going upto 30% fat going to have any negative affects? i love peanut butter, nuts, olive oil, etc... so i could reach 30% easily and i know fat has anabolic properties.

See how you feel. Optimal is based on YOUR individual chemistry. If you feel sicj after a 30% meal or like you swallowed a brick...then its too high for you.

But generally if you use good fats then you are doing the right thing!

RE: Before bed on Keto? (David1991)

Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:43:06 GMT

ok thanks for clearing it all up. just 2 last things....

1. u said i should have that baseline and that going lower carb (would that just be for a cut or within a bulk?) should be gradual...should the change from my current ratio's be done all at once or gradually increase carbs/decrease protein?

2. is going upto 30% fat going to have any negative affects? i love peanut butter, nuts, olive oil, etc... so i could reach 30% easily and i know fat has anabolic properties.

-thanks again

RE: Before bed on Keto? (danmirage)

Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:58:18 GMT

and what should i expect body composition/weight wise while the enzymes are being replaced?

When you first change, you will not have the same response to protein. Because you are destroying so much...
Make sure you get pre/post work out protein.

Simply, you may not gain muscle fast at first.

modulate carbs down? so it would be ok to go lower than 45%c ur saying? should i make the change to higher carbs from where im at quickly or gradually?

I am saying your normal training diet should be a baseline. Then, when you go low carb, you go lower than the baseline...then you return to baseline.

When you cut you go from baseline to gradually lower points of carbs.

i understand the weight gains would start to slow because my body would get used to the carbs and a lot of the initial weight would be water but when i start getting slower gains why would i think it's making me fat? would a higher percentage of gains be fat?

You already said that is what you think. I have seen this time and time again. Because you are like everyone else and think the worst. Because we are very sensative to any changes in physique. Because you are not using a detailed enough method to measure LBM/Fat changes.

gradually increase calories not protein correct?

Yes, Establish a baseline (say 45/25/30) , wait until the weight settles from the water changes. Monitor LBM changes and increase calories at the 45/25/30 ratio equally..not just protein.

RE: Before bed on Keto? (David1991)

Thu, 10 Jan 2008 14:47:58 GMT

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Remember, it can take a little time for the protien wasting enzymes to fully go away and be replaced by enzymes that properly metabolize carbs and properly utilize proteins for building.

and what should i expect body composition/weight wise while the enzymes are being replaced?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

i was planning on cycling between lower and higher carbs (each about 4 weeks).

That would be cycling between a cutting cycle and a bulking cycle. Problem, the baseline should be the 45c/25p/30f and then your should simply modulate carbs down and protein up. Then return to baseline.

modulate carbs down? so it would be ok to go lower than 45%c ur saying? should i make the change to higher carbs from where im at quickly or gradually?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

but how about i stay on the higher protein (30c/45p/25c) until i reach about 2700 calories (currently at 2400) and then once i stop gaining with that i amount i switch over to something like 40-45c/30p/25-30f? would that be good

Honestly, I don't recommend it for a bulking cycle.
You are consuming high protein with a high caloric cost.
The enzymes are trainined to destroy protein.
Your energy is not likely to be high enough to power intense workouts (so you think you need stimulants that are anti anabolic.)

At some point you will be raising carbs adn drop protein and there will be an adjustment period where you gain up to 10 pounds right away then your muscle gains will seem to freeze or backslide and you will say "See, it makes me fat and does not work."

i understand the weight gains would start to slow because my body would get used to the carbs and a lot of the initial weight would be water but when i start getting slower gains why would i think it's making me fat? would a higher percentage of gains be fat?

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Starting with lower protein and gradually increasing at say a 45/25/30 ratio as you gain muscle is more optimal.

gradually increase calories not protein correct?

RE: Before bed on Keto? (danmirage)

Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:32:52 GMT

To be clear, the objective is to gain a maximum of muscle with minimal fat. In talking about diet, you should understand that there are 3 things that you are working with in the background:

Hormones
Neurotransmitters
Enzymes

Right now your body is producing enzymes that waste protein at a high rate.
Your body is accustomed to using protein as an energy substrate...but you want to use it for building muscle. Currently you are in the wrong hormonal/neurotransmitter state to build muscle optimally.

Remember, it can take a little time for the protien wasting enzymes to fully go away and be replaced by enzymes that properly metabolize carbs and properly utilize proteins for building.

Lowering carbs is ideally a cutting strategy not a bulking strategy.
For muscle gains - insulin is anabolic and if you are training and your diet is optimal that is a benefit.

When it comes time to cut, then you start to modulate carb/protein and sometime fat ratios.

i was planning on cycling between lower and higher carbs (each about 4 weeks).

That would be cycling between a cutting cycle and a bulking cycle. Problem, the baseline should be the 45c/25p/30f and then your should simply modulate carbs down and protein up. Then return to baseline.

but how about i stay on the higher protein (30c/45p/25c) until i reach about 2700 calories (currently at 2400) and then once i stop gaining with that i amount i switch over to something like 40-45c/30p/25-30f? would that be good

Honestly, I don't recommend it for a bulking cycle.
You are consuming high protein with a high caloric cost.
The enzymes are trainined to destroy protein.
Your energy is not likely to be high enough to power intense workouts (so you think you need stimulants that are anti anabolic.)

At some point you will be raising carbs adn drop protein and there will be an adjustment period where you gain up to 10 pounds right away then your muscle gains will seem to freeze or backslide and you will say "See, it makes me fat and does not work."

Starting with lower protein and gradually increasing at say a 45/25/30 ratio as you gain muscle is more optimal.

Would you start training with heavy weights in the 9 rep range and hope to gain muscle when you drop the weight and train in the 20 rep range? Your protein streategy is the same as this...you should start with the LOWEST protein and keep increasing at a stable ratio as you gain muscle.

Your approach is backwards, in short. Your Hormones, Neurotransmitters, and Enzymes will be all wrong to have optimal gains if you do it upside down.

RE: Before bed on Keto? (David1991)

Wed, 09 Jan 2008 16:09:15 GMT

ORIGINAL: danmirage

Actually it is to let your body adjust to lower protein.
Right now your body is producing enzymes that waste protein at a high rate.

Lower carbs = slower growth, higher stress hormones, lower levels of anabolic hormones...

Control fat gain by controlling the quality and amount of calories you take in.
If you switch, you can start at a much lower calorie intake and get gains fairly fast...then, only raise calories as needed to keep gaining.

Which is more important right now: eating more or gaining muscle.

alright i'll keep that in mind. what do u think about this?

i was planning on cycling between lower and higher carbs (each about 4 weeks). but how about i stay on the higher protein (30c/45p/25c) until i reach about 2700 calories (currently at 2400) and then once i stop gaining with that i amount i switch over to something like 40-45c/30p/25-30f? would that be good and what do u think about the cycling on and off idea?