Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (jheft)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:34:23 GMT

Yeah, there's more to it than just diet for sure. I mean, their whole body structure is adapted to a different way of life and environment.

Obviously, you've got some pretty stressful stuff going on right now, so don't sweat this thread or whatever. Just take care of yourself. Maybe at some point I can tell you about all the stuff that makes me so warped to cheer you up.

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (twistedlink)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:25:19 GMT

well the inuits jheft mentioned apparently have 10 year shorter lifespans or something(could be wrong here, dont quote me on this), but to be honest that could be from all kinds of reasons, to be quite honest again i also dont care much anymore, not that im doing anyone down posting of late, i just want to forget this thread really. Lock it up and/or delete it if a mod comes by-if its within your power.

Again-sorry

And sorry for your loss Nj, whenever i used to say "sorry for your loss" it was out of politeness, but this one isnt, i truly am sorry, as it were...

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (raidendavidb)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:10:55 GMT

Why do you say it was never designed to do that, when the capability is obviously there, and is utilized under the right conditions? Many mammals (carnivores) have low-carb diets and they get by with similar or identical brain chemistry as humans. Also, many non-agrarian human cultures in the past have had to survive on low carbohydrate diets. Take, for example, the Inuit, whose diet consists almost entirely of fish and meat.

Seems to me that the human brain has evolved to be adaptable to different sorts of diets depending on what's available. The human body is very adaptable!

Jheft I think the body can survive on different things but it wont work as well as Twisted said and it might cut your potential life span. I imagine it would take ages to truly adapt to drastically different diet, sure it won't have a huge effect but it probably will be enough to damage your health and possibly cut your life span.

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (twistedlink)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:05:56 GMT

Why do you say it was never designed to do that, when the capability is obviously there

sometimes the body(or anything in it) can compensate and still function, just not as efficiently, i mean i dont know if the brain runs better on glucose or ketones, it can cope with both, but i assume it runs better on glucose, and thats why its its number 1 "preference" as it were.

I've reread this and some of the **** i've posted is just nuts since this afternoon, sorry.

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (jheft)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:59:29 GMT

ORIGINAL: twistedlink
which it was never designed to do
Humans evlved so muscles use ketones and fats, nervous tissue and the brain uses glucose.

Why do you say it was never designed to do that, when the capability is obviously there, and is utilized under the right conditions? Many mammals (carnivores) have low-carb diets and they get by with similar or identical brain chemistry as humans. Also, many non-agrarian human cultures in the past have had to survive on low carbohydrate diets. Take, for example, the Inuit, whose diet consists almost entirely of fish and meat.

Seems to me that the human brain has evolved to be adaptable to different sorts of diets depending on what's available. The human body is very adaptable!

If you inject synthetic steroids into your system your testicles stop producing natural test until quite some time after stopping the injections unless you have good PCT if im correct?

well its sort of the same principle, youre stopping insulin being made by the body which has evolved to do, and if its done for many years, who's to say the liver wont change over that period of time at becoming less effective at producing insulin?

Well, that's a little bit backwards. The body's own production of testosterone slows down or stops because of the presence of lots of exogenous testosterone. Likewise, lots of insulin (caused by high blood sugar or from exogenous insulin) can cause insulin resistance (which if severe enough, can become type II diabetes). Lowering insulin levels for an extended period of time can actually actually increase insulin sensitivity and/or reduce insulin resistance the same way cycling off steroids can restore the body's own testosterone production.

Look i really dont wanna fight, i had to go because of something very sad to me happened this afternoon, and i might not post for a while, im just upset right now so sorry if i seem a bit pissy.

You posted this while I was composing my previous message. I don't want to fight either, I'm a pacifist. I just can't stay out of these internet fights -- it's like a compulsion, and you're especially good at drawing me in. But I know how life **** can really throw a person's attitude all askew, so I empathize with your situation.

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (twistedlink)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:44:10 GMT

This thread wasnt meant to turn out like this, i never once stated it was 100% fact, and i knew it wouldnt be an in-depth major study to make someone crumble at there knees,

all it was meant to do was put in some relatively advanced science ive learnt and read and put it against articles to see how it panned out, i knew BB.com wouldnt yield major results, it was just the start.

when everyone was dissing dapunisher and sending him nasty PM's i was the one who stuck up for him, im not here to say keto is bad, but like any diet that causes some form of off board spectrum towards a certain hormone/macronutrient-its gonna have side effects, i just wanted to practice what i learned, bundle all the facts you know from the chapter, work through them all, and put them against the source, i did that all the time at college, its what i was taught, and usually-i got to the right solutions according to the teachers

I just wanted to apply that method here, i knew it had maaany other facts i dont know, but whatever.

This was here just to see how keto turned out

I was halfway through another source before the pissing match started and it contained a lot of blue, rather than black.

And thankyou Nj...This is a first for me and i dont quite know how to deal with it.

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (njmuscle66)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:36:56 GMT

I am sorry for your loss-I can understand totally. I actually lost my father a few weeks ago. He had a massive heart attack at 68. Take care of the more important stuff-we can banter back and forth some other time -Hang in there-Chuck

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (twistedlink)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:31:02 GMT

Im sorry for the sarcastic tones, ive explained why above.

Actually, that's part of the point of a ketogenic diet. After being on it for a period of time, the brain (which usually prefers to burn glucose), will switch to burning ketones.

which it was never designed to do

Humans evlved so muscles use ketones and fats, nervous tissue and the brain uses glucose.
It is beneficial to epileptics it seems, but what health hazards are there?
The brain is very complex, and the substance it uses for energy has changed, different chemical formulas, it cant all yield positive things and if it does, then thats extremely lucky.

You're confusing the absence of evidence with evidence of absence. I'm saying that there is no evidence (at least, none that I've seen) that a ketogenic diet can cause diabetes. I did not say there is evidence that it cannot cause diabetes, which is an entirely different claim. It isn't possible to prove the negative. If we were to extend you analogy, we'd have to assume that anything can cause any disease until it's proved otherwise.

I agree, i just find "forcing" the body into abnormal insulin regulation and formation to make a possible gateway to diabetes, more-so with longterm use of the diet.

If you inject synthetic steroids into your system your testicles stop producing natural test until quite some time after stopping the injections unless you have good PCT if im correct?

well its sort of the same principle, youre stopping insulin being made by the body which has evolved to do, and if its done for many years, who's to say the liver wont change over that period of time at becoming less effective at producing insulin?

Isnt that quite common with organs? stopping certain functions because something was obstructing it?

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (njmuscle66)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:23:09 GMT

ORIGINAL: twistedlink

Nj, youve been on this diet for 5 years, and admitted yourself your system "doesnt agree with carbs" which funnily enough, neither does a diabetic.

As to entirely fat, no its not, sorry for that slight imperfection there.

Because 70-80% fat has always been a part of human diet, and our ancestors, we have indeed evolved to tackle that type of diet, with no repurcussions whatsoever, silly me, mustve overlooked that

Darn, and there was me thinking our diets mainly comprised of meats and carbohydrates from fruits, which i now understand to be total bull****, thanks for the enlightenment Nj!

I'm sure it's an excellent textbook, but that doesn't mean the passage cited is going to detail all the caveats and special cases, particularly when those cases are approaching the edge of our current knowledge. Sometimes the consequences of a complex system can be very counterintuitive.

As an analogy to another field, think about gravity. Any two masses are attracted by the gravitational force between them. That usually means, absent other forces acting against gravity, those two masses are going to move closer to one another. However, there are certain circumstances where the gravitation force attracting two objects can cause them to move further apart! For example, the Moon is moving further away from the Earth because of tidal forces caused by the gravitational attraction between the two bodies.

For once il actually agree with you, but i still dont think keto diets stop gluconeogenesis, the body does start burning ketones, but the brain and nervous system require glucose, if youre not getting ernough in the diet-itl perform gluconeogenesis.

You suggested that diabetes was a likely consequence of a ketogenic diet. There isn't evidence of that, and in fact, there is good reason to believe the opposite.

There was evidence thalidomide was a perfectly safe pre natal anti morning sickness pill

Go tell all the limbless people in the world that.

I don't believe you've checked the references yourself. You seem to assume the authors are motivated by money based on nothing other than the fact they disagree with you. It's a bit unfair to impugn their motives since you don't even know who's paying them. They could well be university researchers working of a professor's salary (i.e. not much) or a university grant. And even if the source of funding isn't unbiased, that doesn't necessarily mean the research is invalid. That's why we have peer-review to weed out fake or poorly executed studies.

lol, theres always controversy between scientists in pretty near every subject, the latest one being GW (just an example, weve said our part there, im just using an example) yet studies from both sides of the camp manage to get away with saying theyre right, when only one can be right, so???

Most major scientific journals provide access to their publications online (usually to paid subscribers), and resources like pubmed let researchers search for applicable papers. Obviously, any citation should reference a proper publication and not a web page, but that doesn't mean research can't be done online.

lol i dont wanna pay to read that kinda stuff.

hmmmmmmmmm I would think that me being a little carb sensitive in that I dont assimilate high dosages of carbs well in my opinion (low energy, fat gains) and someone being an insulin dependent diabietic such as my ex wife, mother and father, might be slightly different.

And has for you acting like a sarcastic smart ass rather than having some quality dialouge just furthers my reasoning for staying out of these types of debates

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (jheft)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:21:24 GMT

ORIGINAL: twistedlink
For once il actually agree with you, but i still dont think keto diets stop gluconeogenesis, the body does start burning ketones, but the brain and nervous system require glucose, if youre not getting ernough in the diet-itl perform gluconeogenesis.

Actually, that's part of the point of a ketogenic diet. After being on it for a period of time, the brain (which usually prefers to burn glucose), will switch to burning ketones.

There was evidence thalidomide was a perfectly safe pre natal anti morning sickness pill

You're confusing the absence of evidence with evidence of absence. I'm saying that there is no evidence (at least, none that I've seen) that a ketogenic diet can cause diabetes. I did not say there is evidence that it cannot cause diabetes, which is an entirely different claim. It isn't possible to prove the negative. If we were to extend you analogy, we'd have to assume that anything can cause any disease until it's proved otherwise.

lol i dont wanna pay to read that kinda stuff.

Well, you'll have access to your university library, so you can do you research there.

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (twistedlink)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:09:04 GMT

Look i really dont wanna fight, i had to go because of something very sad to me happened this afternoon, and i might not post for a while, im just upset right now so sorry if i seem a bit pissy.

all i did was try and help with the info i knew, i never stated it was underlying truth

The thread is called theoretical

I mentioned to raiden i cannot state specifically anything, im just using techniques taught to me, and using them the way i was taught.

Im not saying keto is a killer, my only intention to people was to allow them to know that its an unconventional diet and might cause problems.

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (twistedlink)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:06:27 GMT

Nj, youve been on this diet for 5 years, and admitted yourself your system "doesnt agree with carbs" which funnily enough, neither does a diabetic.

As to entirely fat, no its not, sorry for that slight imperfection there.

Because 70-80% fat has always been a part of human diet, and our ancestors, we have indeed evolved to tackle that type of diet, with no repurcussions whatsoever, silly me, mustve overlooked that

Darn, and there was me thinking our diets mainly comprised of meats and carbohydrates from fruits, which i now understand to be total bull****, thanks for the enlightenment Nj!

I'm sure it's an excellent textbook, but that doesn't mean the passage cited is going to detail all the caveats and special cases, particularly when those cases are approaching the edge of our current knowledge. Sometimes the consequences of a complex system can be very counterintuitive.

As an analogy to another field, think about gravity. Any two masses are attracted by the gravitational force between them. That usually means, absent other forces acting against gravity, those two masses are going to move closer to one another. However, there are certain circumstances where the gravitation force attracting two objects can cause them to move further apart! For example, the Moon is moving further away from the Earth because of tidal forces caused by the gravitational attraction between the two bodies.

For once il actually agree with you, but i still dont think keto diets stop gluconeogenesis, the body does start burning ketones, but the brain and nervous system require glucose, if youre not getting ernough in the diet-itl perform gluconeogenesis.

You suggested that diabetes was a likely consequence of a ketogenic diet. There isn't evidence of that, and in fact, there is good reason to believe the opposite.

There was evidence thalidomide was a perfectly safe pre natal anti morning sickness pill

Go tell all the limbless people in the world that.

I don't believe you've checked the references yourself. You seem to assume the authors are motivated by money based on nothing other than the fact they disagree with you. It's a bit unfair to impugn their motives since you don't even know who's paying them. They could well be university researchers working of a professor's salary (i.e. not much) or a university grant. And even if the source of funding isn't unbiased, that doesn't necessarily mean the research is invalid. That's why we have peer-review to weed out fake or poorly executed studies.

lol, theres always controversy between scientists in pretty near every subject, the latest one being GW (just an example, weve said our part there, im just using an example) yet studies from both sides of the camp manage to get away with saying theyre right, when only one can be right, so???

Most major scientific journals provide access to their publications online (usually to paid subscribers), and resources like pubmed let researchers search for applicable papers. Obviously, any citation should reference a proper publication and not a web page, but that doesn't mean research can't be done online.

lol i dont wanna pay to read that kinda stuff.

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (jheft)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:02:31 GMT

ORIGINAL: twistedlink
Im glad the article goes on to explain, however my book was written and was tested and gone through rigourously by the UK's best university professors, so what shall i believe, paid scientists wanting money, or top university professors, decisions decisions

I'm sure it's an excellent textbook, but that doesn't mean the passage cited is going to detail all the caveats and special cases, particularly when those cases are approaching the edge of our current knowledge. Sometimes the consequences of a complex system can be very counterintuitive.

As an analogy to another field, think about gravity. Any two masses are attracted by the gravitational force between them. That usually means, absent other forces acting against gravity, those two masses are going to move closer to one another. However, there are certain circumstances where the gravitation force attracting two objects can cause them to move further apart! For example, the Moon is moving further away from the Earth because of tidal forces caused by the gravitational attraction between the two bodies.

which is what i said...so whyre you arguing?

You suggested that diabetes was a likely consequence of a ketogenic diet. There isn't evidence of that, and in fact, there is good reason to believe the opposite.

Oh no they know more, but because they know more doesnt mean theyl state the truth if the money is right

I don't believe you've checked the references yourself. You seem to assume the authors are motivated by money based on nothing other than the fact they disagree with you. It's a bit unfair to impugn their motives since you don't even know who's paying them. They could well be university researchers working of a professor's salary (i.e. not much) or a university grant. And even if the source of funding isn't unbiased, that doesn't necessarily mean the research is invalid. That's why we have peer-review to weed out fake or poorly executed studies.

My friends have all gone to university (im the youngest and stayed behind a year) and they always got **** grades using the internet, i dont and no one i really know uses the net, because of the reasons ive posted

Most major scientific journals provide access to their publications online (usually to paid subscribers), and resources like pubmed let researchers search for applicable papers. Obviously, any citation should reference a proper publication and not a web page, but that doesn't mean research can't be done online.

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (njmuscle66)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:29:34 GMT

ORIGINAL: Perrynaytor

Not to jump in and stop the heat of the arguement here, but..

I'm going to do this diet with carbs around the workouts. What I need first, is how many carbs is too many carbs?

I could have a whey shake before and after which would add up to 10 carbs.

Then my casein shake before bed is 7 carbs.

That's 17 total.

Which technically, going by the macros I have now

F: 65%
P: 25%
C: 5%

I'm allowed about 23g perday.

I could always up the carbs a little to maybe 10%, and throw in some milk with the whey shakes, and leave the casein plain with water.

Then that would be 43g a day. With another 4 carbs allowed in on the other meals to equal 47g (10%).

I need some sort of suggestion, though. I could just eat under 30g carbs during each week day, then carb up on the weekend..

Perry-dont count the carbs prework since you will burn it off. I woudl go with a piece of fruit (granny smith apple) since you want to have energy to train.

Also a little plus or minus is not going to make a difference. I think what you laid out is good with maybe using a fruit or oatmeal pre-you want that training energy and it will be burned off

RE: Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet (njmuscle66)

Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:24:17 GMT

I wil say my piece and than move on to other more pressing issues

a) we can't believe science or those who study it HOWEVER we should take as GOSPEL what you said based on some cursory academic knowlege. See this is why I guestioned what you were going to post initially as you already had your mind set on what your analysis would be. That is best illustated by this comment

Im not gonna budge no matter what articles you give, i know the science of the body, and i can piece all them bits together and formulate most likely problems and what will happen.

It is interesting how you can diagnosis me and my reaction to insulin.

And another gem:
A human was not designed to be in a stage of "ketosis", its an effect of putting a certain scenario on the body, through evolution we've never had to live off purely fats, in fact quite the opposite until the mid 20th century

First off a keto diet is not purely fats so lets try to stick to the facts and not make absolute statements -They dont work in taking standardized tests nor do they work in supporting facts

So let me ask you this since you say humans were not designed to eat like this
What was the diet of the caveman and early man.

Like I said I am all for healthy debate but not when one takes an absolute 100% I am right and nothing you can suggest can ever make me change my mind becuase I (twistedlink) know science............

Like I said there is plenty of info out there for people who want to research the eating plan