To much protein bad for kidneys?

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (ShaqAtack)

Sun, 26 Feb 2006 13:49:33 GMT

I just wanted to bring two more quick points into focus. Most kidney-protein studies are geared towards the common person, not weight trained athletes. If the average couch potato joe were to intake 300+ grams of protein then the protein not needed for repair WOULD excrete higher than average amounts of nitrogen through urine because your body doesn't need all the nitrogen for muscle repair, it only would need energy. So, this is why I say it's relative based upon your level and frequency of training. It would be very unwise to consume excess protein for no reason at all, if your body didn't need it.

Next, let's assume someone IS excreting higher than average levels of nitrogen whether because they're in a catabolic state or just eat too much protein for their activity level. It is up to the scientists to prove it harms the kidneys longterm which simply hasn't been done yet.

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (ShaqAtack)

Sat, 25 Feb 2006 08:50:24 GMT

What do I think happens to excess protein in the body?   I think the body oxidizes it and gets rid of the nitrogen in the amino group through urine, and uses the carboxyl group and converts it to glucose or then to fat.

If you read what I said about someone tested to be in NEGATIVE nitrogen balance at 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight (300 g protein) that shoots the theory in the butt. Because that means there's not even enough dietary nitrogen to make muscle nonetheless pollute the body, even at 300 grams of protein for that individual. In fact, him being catabolic is what would cause a nitrogen overload on the kidneys, not the fact he consumed 300 grams of protein! It's a completely relative thing. The more you train the more protein you need to remain anabolic.

And what exactly did you say is science? There has not been one single study that has "concluded" that too much protein is bad for the kidneys. Just because the body works in such a way that nitrogen is excreted when protein is broken down does NOT mean you can pretend that's science and say it causes kidney damage.   All that is, is kidneys fulfilling their job. I read all the journals and visit all the college research programs regularly so if you think there is one, by all means quote it and show it, and I'll look up the journal.

I'm not saying it's wise to overload on anything in general (ie the thread title of TOO much protein), however, if you choose to partake in intense weightlifting and do so regularly, you must do what is required otherwise you will shrink down to nothing, lose all your lean body mass, and die. So go ahead and eat your RDA 60 grams of protein while weight training and see what happens.

I also mentioned the urea function of the kidneys and how it takes the waste from the blood due to oxidative breakdown of protein, however if all the protein is brought into your muscles for repair via hormones like insulin, there's no EXCESS nitrogen from dietary sources. Nitrogen would only come from natural bodily oxidative processes which will be excreted in the urine like normal.

More protein in does NOT mean more protein out if you are weight training intensely. If you are anabolic you are not secreting much nitrogen at all, compared to if you're catabolic (from not consuming ENOUGH protein). If you're building UP muscle protein, nitrogen cannot be excreted from it, if you tear down muscle protein (normal bodily processes; ie protein turnover) THEN your body separates the amino (nitrogen) and carboxyl (carbohydrate precursor), and excretes the nitrogen.

So let's discuss this in general terms. Your normal bodily processes are that of building up tissue and breaking down tissue. So for normal life to occur you have to intake protein, and then it will excrete the nitrogen from its later breakdown. That's the proces of life, how nature intended it. Indeed, human wastes serve as nitrogen fertilizer for the soils so it works out just great. But let's bring weight training into the equation. It GREATLY increases the breakdown of protein (catabolism) away from homeostasis. So if nothing is done you will break down MUSCLE protein, and excrete a lot MORE nitrogen (which you wanted to avoid) unlike if you consumed MORE protein to become anabolic. So you need to increase consumption of many, many amino acids to stay anabolic the harder you work out. If you're anabolic, hardly any nitrogen will be excreted, but admittedly it's very hard to be totally anabolic all the time, because your body wants to breakdown tissue to replace new tissue. However, maintaining anabolism is a help to your body when you weight train, and then when the body does go through periods of catabolism, it is because of "natural bodily processes" and NOT due to extra protein, that produces the nitrogen for the kidneys to excrete.

The other thing I mentioned was the one thing that should be worried about in consuming excess meat. Excess toxins can build up in the intestine, and even some nitrogenous waste on the insteinal walls (both from intestinal bacteria and meat residues). There is a big correlation between meat consumption and slowing of the digestive tract. And there have been studies showing nitrogenous waste in the intestine under extra meat consumption.  So it's important to intake lots of fiber and focus primarily on the most absorbable proteins like yogurt, fish, eggs, and whey, in which case your kidneys will be perfectly fine provided you weight train most days.

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (ebbearsfb1)

Sat, 25 Feb 2006 07:57:22 GMT

excess protein in ur body u just **** out

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (40 yard dash 2)

Sat, 25 Feb 2006 05:10:55 GMT

Guys, what do you think happens to excess protein in the body? It is not a myth, and it is certainly not paranoid people, it is science. Nitrogen is poison, or nitrogenous waste if not used. This is the NH3 group on the amino acid. Obviously, there is no storage form for protein, so the body has to rid this toxic excess ammonia by way of the urea cycle. That is how the body works.

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (GyM RaT)

Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:08:55 GMT

ORIGINAL: Minotaur

ORIGINAL: Ben

what about kidney damage from creatine?

Myth.

that has happened before due to the excess creatinine the liver and kidneys are working hard to get out.

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (Italianangel)

Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:59:41 GMT

with increased training or harder training or whatever you do in extreme for activity then you will adjust diet or supplement to compliment that so it is relative to your goals and training but I also agree that everything in balance - relative to your needs of course.
What may be too much for your kidneys may not be too much for others...visa versa. If you are within range of 1-2 gm protein per lb bodyweight per day then you are fine.

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (Minotaur)

Wed, 22 Feb 2006 07:05:53 GMT

ORIGINAL: Ben

what about kidney damage from creatine?

Myth.

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (Ben)

Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:44:26 GMT

what about kidney damage from creatine?

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (caffeineaddict)

Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:26:00 GMT

Just make sure you drink plenty of whatever... you should be fine w/proper diet

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (moralski)

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:43:18 GMT

i think you'll be fine. i wonder how old that book is your dad read.

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (Nic)

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:44:28 GMT

ORIGINAL: ShaqAtack

It's wise never to go overboard on ANYTHING.

I think this is the best quote I've ever read on this board !
AMEN !

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (ShaqAtack)

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:39:53 GMT

That doesn't have anything to do with kidneys, however it's good advice. It will help keep your digestion running smoothly in the presence of extra protein. Pineapple, papayas, and red wine should be bodybuilders best friends because of the enzymes they contain which can help digest protein.

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (GyM RaT)

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:07:40 GMT

u need some digestive enzymes

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (ShaqAtack)

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:13:02 GMT

Hi. It's wise never to go overboard on ANYTHING. However, that book sounds like s LOT of supposition and very little scientific fact.   It is true that the more protein you consume the more your kidneys have to work, however the more of ANY nutrient you consume the more your kidneys have to work. It is not wise to go on a meganprotein diet without a balance of good fats and fruits and vegetables. That would NOT be good. You need balance in all food groups.

I'm surprised you needed that book to say too much protein can get you fat!   :)   I don't mean that in a demeaning way, but too much fat will make you fat, too much carbs will make you fat, and yes even too much PROTEIN if you don't exercise enough or intake hundreds and hundreds of grams per day.

Charles Poloquin, one of the premier experts on exercise physiology and kinesiology, and a coach of olympic athletes, said that he's TESTED and seen in real world cases that athletes have actually been in negative nitrogen balance at 300 grams of protein per day or 1.5 grams per pound of bodybweight which kind of shoots your dad's author right in the foot. She has no valid point if there are people in negative nitrogen balance at that much protein. This shows you it's a very relative thing between two individuals.   The critical factor is how hard and consistent your training is, that you need more or less protein. Because if your body has a high demand for it, there will be hardly ANY excess nitrogen. In fact, most bodybuilders beg to be in the positive nitrogen balance because it's so hard.

There has not been one study done ever that "proved" that protein causes kidney problems. How about that? This doesn't mean however that they are not "indirectly" linked. For instance, an excessive consumption of meat and dairy products is bad for general health not becaues of something in the meat itself, but because of what man has done to the cows and dairy products. It's all commercial business out there to get out food, so they want to buff up the growth hormone to make little cows huge and produce more meat, they add antibiotics, and instead of eating and cooking meat fresh upon slaughter it has to be transported to us and risk being contaminated.

Next, excessive meat slows down the digestion. Everyone would go to the bathroom 2-3 times a day if they completely avoided all meat and had only milk or yogurt as the sole source of animal protein. That is a clear correlation between meat consumption and slowing of digestive tract. And this can allow toxins and negative things to build up and get in our blood stream in which both the liver and kidneys will have to work harder. But it wasn't the protein that did it. Nature intended us to mix grains with beans, nuts or seeds, to make our complete proteins. Does that book recommend we don't eat beans or whole grains because that's protein too. I mean don't be ridiculous. It's not protein that causes kidney problems because excess unneeded protein is harmlessly excreted through the urine. But the whole point of more protein consumption is that bodybuilders in intense training NEED the protein, so it can be used for bodily repair. So not a whole lot will be excreted if you need it all. Kidneys only cleanse the blood of reoccuring, recirculating toxins like urea and other waste products in the blood. If dietary protein comes in, if insulin and other pathways pull it right into the muscles, then how can it even affect the kidneys?

There are a few helpful keys that can help you on your protein quest and minimize overload. To get your protein, eat many meals per day with 20-40 grams of protein at each, rather than 75-100 at one meal. Just this step alone would minimize any stress of the kidneys beacuse it only has to deal with a moderate amount (a typical meal of meat). Believe it or not we HAVE adapted the ability to eat some meat every now and then without our kidneys bursting. :)

The next step is to eat primilary eggs, fish, and yogurt (whey can be included if its only 24 gram serving) for the bulk of all your protein. These are easily and qiuckly digested as opposed to red meat and poultry. I'm not saying the body can't digest the latter successfully, but it takes longer, and there is more waste from meat and poultry becaue there's less absorption of that type of protein in the intestine. There's hardly ANY waste left over from eggs fish or milk (organic). Poultry and meat should be the secondary sources of protein, not primary.

Another trick you can use is mix beans with whole grains, or mix nuts or seeds with whole grains, or mix milk and dairy with whole grains. That is unequivocally better for digestion and can often make a 20+ gram complete protein meal which is very useful under certain circumstances, like around contest time if you want to keep fat very low.

The bottom line is, Dr. Poliquin just shot your dad's author's whole argument in the butt. This just proves that when you work with real world experiments rather than theoretical books that often your suppositions are just wrong. There's never been any study that has conclusively proved that protein causes kidney problems. If you look at studies see if they say "concludes that" "determined that", or if it says "may lead to" or "may be toxic". If you see each language in a study you know the first one had a result the second didn't. All the kidney protein correlations are the latter. I think many people on the surface of it say what? You have to consume hundreds of grams of protein?   That'll be bad for your system. A typical uneducated remark. First of all, your demand for it is very high IF you train consistently (on rest days consume a little less protein), second you divide it up into many meals per day so there isn't any one overload on the system, thirdly, you have high quality protein sources mainly which means your body absorbs most of it directly for muscle repair leaving little pollution for your body.

Sometimes, it is just best to ask that people respect that you do what you do, and they can do what they do. Because there's no way you can explain all these things to them in a casual conversation unless they ask about your knowledge on the subject.

RE: To much protein bad for kidneys? (hulio82)

Mon, 20 Feb 2006 07:37:24 GMT

if you are scared of getting your kidneys messed up, just drink a lot of water.

A lot of my friends drink 3-4 protein shakes day, but don't drink a whole lot of water. I can imagine this having some effect on your kidneys.