ok...who thinks we need this

ORIGINAL: veggeep
I wasn't aware there was such a thing.  And that in itself may be all the invite you need to proceed, but let's get that cleared up first.

Yeah, there are quite a few these days.
 

Obviously, if you can dispense advice about a substance any of us can walk into the local GNC and obtain without a prescription, then it belongs in the appropriate forum.  Perhaps a whole forum of stickies, one per product, that includes a comprehensive writeup?

 
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.  The only problem is that that will take a lot of someone's (Vaughn, haha) time to do such an in depth article on a bunch of different ph's.  I guess a few people could get in on it and write them, and then Vaughn could go back and edit the articles till they are correct or something tho...

Yes, ignorance abounds, but we need to be very careful about what we educate people on for the sake of dispelling their repetitive and annoying misconceptions.  We spend probably as much time trying to convince non-BB types that creatine is not a steroid, and we do it by explaining what creatine IS, not by giving them a steroid user's manual.

 
True true

Comprehensive sex education reduces rates of teen pregnancy and STDs and doesn't increase risky sexual, and abstinence-only sex-ed doesn't stop kids from having sex. I doubt steroids is any different. So, I'm of the attitude that if they don't learn correct information in a structured way, they're going to learn the wrong info on "the street" from that creepy guy with the trench-coat and the sticky Penthouse magazines.

However, if the forum is going to be hormone-free, there's gotta be a firm policy, because right now, there isn't one. In my opinion, the policy should be locking any and all threads started about steroids/prohormones with a form letter attached. Something along the lines of:

You've posted a question about steroids or prohormones. This is a drug-free board, so you'll have to go elsewhere for the information you seek. However, we advise that the information you currently have - even the information on the bottle - is probably very wrong and will do serious harm to your health. Use of steroids is serious business and must be engaged with extreme caution.

If there's going to be some sort of master thread providing information, it should be as accurate and comprehensive as possible and emphasize the risks. All sex-ed classes emphasize the risks of sex because there's no reason to tell people all the "benefits" of sex (sex is fun), and likewise, there's no reason to tell people about the benefits of steroids. Everybody knows why they're taken. Even moreso, sex is a healthy, natural part of human behavior and steroids... aren't.

Yeah, but the fact is that these are legal products.  Whether or not they're necessary or not isn't the point.  People can buy them at their local supp shop, and they will, and we may as well educate them on the subject...

Vaughn,

Hard Hittin' New Britain haha, used to go up there sometimes while my friends went to CCSU. I'm a Milford man myself, def check it out down here if you like the nite life once and a while. 

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES - NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT THEY
BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

ORIGINAL: jheft

Comprehensive sex education reduces rates of teen pregnancy and STDs and doesn't increase risky sexual, and abstinence-only sex-ed doesn't stop kids from having sex. I doubt steroids is any different. So, I'm of the attitude that if they don't learn correct information in a structured way, they're going to learn the wrong info on "the street" from that creepy guy with the trench-coat and the sticky Penthouse magazines.

Call me a callous bastard, but if someone wants to pursue a course of action after they've been told in very certain terms that there are significant health risks attached to it and that the activity is illegal, then I don't think they're particularly deserving of instruction on how to flout the law "correctly".  Someone would have to be an epic retard, or living in total denial to come to a decision to use steroids without having heard at least anecdotally that doing so is illegal and frought with peril.  If they want to take those risks anyway, and they're too stupid or lazy to do more than pose the question to a self-claimed drug-free discussion group, then they deserve to suffer the consequences of their ignorance.

It's like saying "a lot of people are going to blow up their homes trying to make meth in their basement.  We should spare them the injury of blowing up their home by teaching them safe methods to produce their poison."  Could anything be less logical?  "Compound XYZ is useless.  Let me save you the injustice of wasting your money by showing you how to properly abuse your endocrine system."  It's like robbing Peter to stab Paul.

I don't think we have any responsibility to encourage "proper" cheating simply on the grounds that "people will do it anyway".

And while I agree with your position against abstinence-only sex ed, I don't think it's an apt analogy, because sex -while it can carry specific health risks- is not illegal.  No one is going to haul two people of consenting age to jail for knockin' boots without using effective birth control.

As far as I'm concerned, legality is EVERYTHING in this issue.  I personally have a supply of DHEA that I bought before it made the IOC's list of banned substances, but I never cracked the seals on the bottles because almost as soon as I bought it, I stumbled upon a frenzy of conflicting information about how useless it is.  Toolman says we're talking about "Legal" pro-hormones -and my basic point is we have no business censoring information about legal substances.  Personally, I'm curious;  I'd like to know specifically what legal pro-hormones are available and which are effective, because I'm all about taking advantage of every safe, legal edge you can in your quest for athletic excellence.

Last, let's not forget that just because a substance is legal (as in DEA legal), that is no guarantee that your sanctioning body of choice won't still throw you off the team for using it.  If you show up to compete with an out-of-whack T/epi ratio, they're gonna come down on you as though your were on gear -and plenty of legal substances can precipitate that kind of "false" positive (note the quotes).

You're right, my analogy is bogus. I should have recognized that myself when I ended my post with "sex is a healthy, natural part of human behavior and steroids... aren't."

ORIGINAL: veggeep

not to belabor the point I've already made, but I think it bears mentioning that everyone's disgust over the misinformation being posted about gear and prohormones is a lousy reason to clarify their "propper" use with a sticky. Are you telling me that if I get enough people to post misleading instructions about how to cook heroine, you'll want a sticky demonstrating the correct way to shoot up? And before you answer "no", think about the double standard you'll be advocating by promoting one kind of controlled substance vs. Another.

No, the admins can't keep policing every misleading thread about elicit substances, but they don't have to condone it outright. You should know better, Vaughn -there's no such thing as a "last word" on that subject. And as knowledgable as I'm sure you are, I doubt yours would be the end-all post you think it will.

Id be just as interested in reading it as the next guy, but it doesnt belong on a site that actively strives to promote a drug-free approach to bodybuilding. To that end, maybe we should be quashing all discussions (especially the misinformed ones) about AAS and PHs.

Comparing steroids or PH to heroine is just irresponsible. The two have nothing in common and your fear and mis-information approach was done in the 80's and it failed miserably.

Nothing wrong with educating kids about  how steroids and PH can negatively  effect the Endocrine system and  bone growth in teens and people in their early 20's. Giving them a list of side effects, laws on controlled substances and also a true view of what the black market is would be a good thing. As for telling them how to inject and what to use I think that is something this site should not get involved in.

If you can bench press more than you can squat you should be ashamed.

ORIGINAL: toolman4052

Yeah, but the fact is that these are legal products.  Whether or not they're necessary or not isn't the point.  People can buy them at their local supp shop, and they will, and we may as well educate them on the subject...

 
Yeah I agree. Besides you can't just brush all ph talk under the rug. For one this forum is going to lose credibility. Secondly, where do you draw the line between legal phs and other products on the market?
An ai coumpound might have some anabolic properties and be more effective then say a prostanazol clone. So we can't talk about it? It's a slippery slope trying to censor all products that we think should be illegal but really aren't.
 
And the whole "all natural" bodybuilding idea is pretty debatable too. Like it or not steroids are on the market right now, and they'll be a part of bodybuilding until something drastic happens.

ORIGINAL: ninjaman89

You are the single most annoying member I have ever run into on a message board Sarshar.

The compound your talking about is made by ergopharm and its called 6-oxo.  Go to ergopharm.com and look at the product and STFU ALREADY!

 
LOL

"You are what you eat"
Age - 26
Height - 5'4"
Weight - 145
Arms - 14.5"
_____________________
Food...Creatine, Fish Oil
Multivitamin, Milk Thistle
RPN HAVOC

ORIGINAL: jheft

You're right, my analogy is bogus. I should have recognized that myself when I ended my post with "sex is a healthy, natural part of human behavior and steroids... aren't."

I didn't say "Bogus".  I said "not apt".  Because how you ended your post is not how you couched the analogy:

Comprehensive sex education... doesn't increase risky sexual [sic], and abstinence-only sex-ed doesn't stop kids from having sex. I doubt steroids is any different. So, I'm of the attitude that if they don't learn correct information in a structured way, they're going to learn the wrong info on "the street"

You seem to be suggesting, with this analogy, that the point of providing proper steroid education is to prevent people from getting bogus info on the street, and that doing so won't increase or encourage steroid use.  Whether or not sex is natural and steroids are not does not add any relevant weight to the comparison.  It lends a modicum of icing to those who need their proverbial decision-making cake adorned with good reasons not to use the "they'll do it anyway" justification.  That is, it's an artful flourish, but not germane to the legal/illegal issue.

It's the same argument public health workers have been using in their promotion of needle exchange programs.  People are going to use dirty needles and spread HIV if we don't ply them with clean wares with which to continue breaking the law.  Sorry, but tough titties.  If someone doesn't want to get AIDS from a dirty needle, they should consider kicking their illegal habit.

I think we all generally agree that as long as we're not encouraging illegal behavior, we should embrace the challenge of sorting the facts from the B.S. reagrding Prohormones.  At the very least, debate will subject these substances to healthy scrutiny, and we can let the market decide their fate.  Just like it has with hundreds of snake oil scams before them.

Perhaps we can start by tossing up a list of substances (in this thread?) we want to review/research.  And for sake of not chasing our tails over brand formulations, we should stick to discussing the active ingredients?  My experience with supplement dabates reveals that all supplement efficacy arguments can be broken down into two basic questions:

1. Does the active ingredient do what it claims?
2. Does XYZ brand make the best use of that active ingredient?

Where we routinely devolve into bickering is on question 2 (Usually because manufacturers go out of their way to conflate the research implicit in question number 1 with their own advertizing claims -and then pack their ad copy chock full of proprietary, nonensical terms to bamboozle people into taking their word for it).

Comparing steroids or PH to heroine is just irresponsible. The two have nothing in common and your fear and mis-information approach was done in the 80's and it failed miserably.

Excuse me, they have one thing EMINENTLY in common:  They are both ILLEGAL.

I was not comparing the health risks of steroids to the health risks of taking heroine.  I was comparing the legality.  That is niether irresponsible nor "fear and mis-information".

You seem to have caught me disagreeing with myself, at the very least. My original post could have been better thought out.

Now that you mention needle exchange programs, I'm really confused. I'm going to have to sit down and figure out what I think about all these issues now, because I generally thing needle exchange programs are a good idea.

If someone doesn't want to get AIDS from a dirty needle, they should consider kicking their illegal habit.

Easier said than done! Have you ever seen a junkie in need of a fix? Steroids are not addictive in the way heroin is.

Stop comparing steroids to heroin. Heroin is well known as being one of the most deadly drugs known to man. Some of the major differences which make the two nowhere near the same
- Heroin is a Narcotic (The term narcotic (ναρκωτικός) is believed to have been coined by Galen to refer to agents that benumb or deaden, causing loss of feeling or paralysis)
- Extremely high rate of addiction
- Terrible withdrawl symptoms starting from within 6 to 24 hours of discontinuation of sustained use of the drug
 
 
Now try to tell  me these are the same things

"You are what you eat"
Age - 26
Height - 5'4"
Weight - 145
Arms - 14.5"
_____________________
Food...Creatine, Fish Oil
Multivitamin, Milk Thistle
RPN HAVOC

ORIGINAL: 04blackmax

Stop comparing steroids to heroin. Heroin is well known as being one of the most deadly drugs known to man. Some of the major differences which make the two nowhere near the same
- Heroin is a Narcotic (The term narcotic (ναρκωτικός) is believed to have been coined by Galen to refer to agents that benumb or deaden, causing loss of feeling or paralysis)
- Extremely high rate of addiction
- Terrible withdrawl symptoms starting from within 6 to 24 hours of discontinuation of sustained use of the drug


Now try to tell  me these are the same things

For the last time,

I AM NOT COMPARING STEROIDS TO HEROINE!

Go back and read what I just wrote about that before you start putting words in my mouth please.

And anyone in here who really wants to try and excuse one manner of illegal behavior more than another on the basis that one is less addictive, less destructive, less expensive, has fewer withdrawal symptoms, or leaves you with better breath than another, please save it for the pot-head forums where people give a sh1t about rationalizing illegal behavior.

ORIGINAL: veggeep

Comparing steroids or PH to heroine is just irresponsible. The two have nothing in common and your fear and mis-information approach was done in the 80's and it failed miserably.

Excuse me, they have one thing EMINENTLY in common:  They are both ILLEGAL.

I was not comparing the health risks of steroids to the health risks of taking heroine.  I was comparing the legality.  That is niether irresponsible nor "fear and mis-information".

Wrong again. One is illegal the other is a prescription drug used legally every day by thousands of people. One is legally used in medicine to heal people the other is a opioid used to get high that is sold on the black market.

Again you post  mis-information.

If you can bench press more than you can squat you should be ashamed.