ok...who thinks we need this

ORIGINAL: njmuscle66

many individuals go to on line vet places and order the pellets.  And the same places that sell the SERMS so discussed on here also sell the conversion kits .....so not sure if you are just being funny or not.  Since your knowledge of bodybuilding goes beyond that of the typical member here

My only point is the "for research use only disclaimer is useless and would not protect the consumer or the seller when and if the FDA cracks down..........That is all I wanted to express

 
No,  I was just saying I had not heard of anyone using Fina.. The side affects with the QV = Quality Vet compounds of that **** must be insane.   "Scary Stuff"  You never hear many people talk about fina anymore. 
 
I see what you were getting at though.  Drugs such as these are legal as long as they are used within the boundries of what they are intended for.

No biggy IBB-Carry on

[image]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/203/njmuscle66qg2.gif[/image]

ORIGINAL: veggeep

So back to the availability issue: Toolman says I can walk into Wal-Mart and buy DHEA, yet ever since I first bought it hassle-free at GNC, I've heard nothing but speculation about whether it's banned or not.

Are you telling me that if I wanted to risk blowing my LDL Cholesterol through the ceiling, cause a CoQ10 deficiency, and shut down my balls for a 15 Lb-in-30-day gain, I could walk into a health food store here in the United States TODAY and plop down my credit card for a bottle of Superdrol just like that?  Because (and I really hope I don't have to elaborate any further on such an obvious point) if that's not the case, then Marc is right, and this is not the place to talk about it.

I don't know about health food stores, because I don't shop there due to the high prices, but you could go to my gym's store, plop down your credit card and get superdrol clone or a number of other phs.

if having a steroid board on this site would be a huge legal issue, why does the forum on bodybuilding.com have one without any problems?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17

Age: 18
Height: 5'7"
Body Weight: 180-185
BF %: 8 %
Incline Barbell: 195 x 8
Squat: 295 x 8, ass to ground
Shoulder Press: 175 x 8
Barbell Row: 195 x 8
Skullcrushers: 105 x 10
(All lifts are on 3rd set)

ORIGINAL: johnnyb1635

ORIGINAL: toolman4052

ORIGINAL: veggeep

ORIGINAL: odw777
...And yeah serms can be bought legally.

I don't dispute that.  Raw, injectable testosterone can be bought legally.

Hell, I know two people at my office who use transdermal testosterone patches prescribed by their doctors.

It seems no one here is willing to stop kidding themselves about the possession or intent portion of the laws they erroneously think exploiting loopholes exempts them from.

Don't bother.  You've answered my question when you failed to point out which GNC I can walk into, plop down my credit card, and walk out of with a bottle of Nolvadex and no prescription.

Incedentally, this is precisely why people like Marc are opposed to "education" about these matters taking place on his site: because there seem to be a lot of really permissible ideas about what constitutes "PERFECTLY LEGAL" floating around, when the facts about such "legality" are anything but settled.

Well, you can't even get legal prohormones at GNC, but replacing "GNC" with "local supplement/health store" I get where you're coming from.  Unless legal, OTC SERMS (rebound xt, 6-oxo, novedex xt) are discussed, there is no place for discussion of SERMS period.

Rebound XT, 6-oxo, and Novedex XT are not SERMS my brother, they are Aromatase Inhibitors.  We're talking a whole different hormonal process.

 
My bad... SEE, this is why we need an article describing it...  Are there any legal ones?
 
What exactly is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator)?  Wikipedia's definition and long explanation aren't very clear to me...
 
Novedex claims to be both anti-estrogenic and pro-testosterone boosting....

My bad... SEE, this is why we need an article describing it... Are there any legal ones?

What exactly is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator)? Wikipedia's definition and long explanation aren't very clear to me...

Novedex claims to be both anti-estrogenic and pro-testosterone boosting....

A'ight... this is where I borrow a phrase from Vaughn...

"Do some more research"

You know, Marc was right.  Why, in particular, does it have to be here??  Because people don't want their information more than two clicks away from the site they're presently reading??  Come on, TM.  I googled it and learned more about SERMS in five minutes than I ever knew before.  Personally, when Vaughn first dropped the term, i thought he meant "serum", as in, "don't bother with orals, go find an injectable".

None of this is proof that we need yet another education on these matters conveniently laid out here on DBB.com.  The answers are readily available to anyone with a search engine.

Here's a writeup about superdrol
Here's a site with hundreds of excellent articles
All about SERMS
A handful of web definitions for SERM
Ooops!  Lookie here in item #9... Never been to this site before...

That took exactly two minutes to browse, copy, and paste the URLs.  Seriously.  I don't mean to be a dick, but I think it's safe to say the vast majority of complaints about the "lack of information" about this material is just plain laziness on the part of those seeking it.

A Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator is a drug that acts like estrogen on some tissues in the body, but blocks estrogen uptake by other types of tissues.  I'm no PhD, but if someone had breast cancer, and breast cancer were a product of the action of estrogen on target tissues, I would want a way to block the action on that tissue without shutting down all the other useful functions estrogen provides.  Hence, it makes sense you'd want a drug that could selectively block the action of the hormone.

Compare that to an aromataze inhibitor, which is designed to prevent the body from turning excess testosterone into estrogen (aromatization) in the first place.

Well done guys!
 
You've all been invited to guiness world records picture taking!
 
Im surprised this thread wasnt locked/deleted at around page 4-5
 
Get this to page 10 and were definitely in guiness
 
 
I dont care if something is legal or not, im not injecting or swallowing stuff designed for animals, animals enzymes can differ a lot to a humans, just because its legal doesnt make it safe
 
 
Seriously, this site doesnt need this kind of **** here, not only that but if there were to be an official place for this talk, wouldnt it just be this topic but 300-400-500? times, however long it lasts
 
every expert has different ideas of whats good and whats not, every steroid knowledgable person here has disagreed with another steroid knowledgable person to some degree
 
therefore if a "steroid sub forum" was created, itd just have members cussing each other.
 
Like marc, veg, me, and a lot of other people have said, you want steroid info, just google it, im sure if you googled bodybuilding forum the first 50 results would yield around at least 25/50 sources with decent information, if not more-most likely.
 
Its like economics, you have 10 companies releasing the same ****, is there room for an 11th?
 
No.
 
Theres hundreds of sites out there releasing steroid info, is there room for more?
 
Yes
 
Is it needed?
 
No.
 
 
Like i said would be a good idea, when steroid posts are made, a mod posts anti steroid forum rules here, discourages the use of them, IP log macro gets kickin' and it deletes so mods dont have to keep an eye on it all.
 
 

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

if having a steroid board on this site would be a huge legal issue, why does the forum on bodybuilding.com have one without any problems?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17

I don't think the legality is the major issue (although it is a concern) My understanding is this forum is anti-steroid(and PH) and should , in my opinion stay that way.

Sure DBB Could have a steroid forum. there are plenty of things we could do.....we could all steer our cars with our feet....
But that don't make it a good F*ck!n Idea now does it?

If people want a steroid forum they should go to a forum such as the link listed above.

not trying to be an ass
just my 2 cents

Current supps: Cell Tech,Superpump 250,Animal pak,ON 100% whey ,P-Plex,MDROL,Perfect cycle,ForMadrol Extreme,Hawthorne berry,SAw Palmetto,Red yeast,CoQ10

ORIGINAL: bulkingup

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

if having a steroid board on this site would be a huge legal issue, why does the forum on bodybuilding.com have one without any problems?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17

I don't think the legality is the major issue (although it is a concern) My understanding is this forum is anti-steroid(and PH) and should , in my opinion stay that way.

Sure DBB Could have a steroid forum. there are plenty of things we could do.....we could all steer our cars with our feet....
But that don't make it a good F*ck!n Idea now does it?

If people want a steroid forum they should go to a forum such as the link listed above.

not trying to be an ass
just my 2 cents

 
 
AGAIN...why don't you people READ?
 
 
No one stated they wanted a steroid forum or even a PH forum.
 
 
It was one of 2 things.
 
 
A legal hormone STICKY...or to delete all hormonal threads.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
just seeing the words "hormone" and "steroids" and immediatly saying "dbb is anti steroids!!!!!" is ridiculous. Read the posts and figure out what the thread is ACTUALLY about.
 
 
 
this will be my last post in the thread.
 
 
 
good luck to whoever wants to monitor the boards to stop the 15 year olds from discussing hormonal activities

"poena est vires in dissimulo"

Start
Height : 6'
Weight : 258lbs
Waist : 38"
Bicep : 16"
Neck : 20"

Now
Height : 6'
Weight : 200
Waist : 32"
Bicep : 17.25
Neck : 19"
BF% - 7.4%

ORIGINAL: VaughnTrue

ORIGINAL: bulkingup

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

if having a steroid board on this site would be a huge legal issue, why does the forum on bodybuilding.com have one without any problems?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17

I don't think the legality is the major issue (although it is a concern) My understanding is this forum is anti-steroid(and PH) and should , in my opinion stay that way.

Sure DBB Could have a steroid forum. there are plenty of things we could do.....we could all steer our cars with our feet....
But that don't make it a good F*ck!n Idea now does it?

If people want a steroid forum they should go to a forum such as the link listed above.

not trying to be an ass
just my 2 cents

AGAIN...why don't you people READ? I did read....was just responding to MM14


No one stated they wanted a steroid forum or even a PH forum. MM14 asked about a steroid forum above


It was one of 2 things.


A legal hormone STICKY...or to delete all hormonal threads.








just seeing the words "hormone" and "steroids" and immediatly saying "dbb is anti steroids!!!!!" is ridiculous. Read the posts and figure out what the thread is ACTUALLY about. I was responding to 1 post NOT the Entire thread



this will be my last post in the thread.



good luck to whoever wants to monitor the boards to stop the 15 year olds from discussing hormonal activities

 
I personally don't feel a need to discuss steroids or hormonal products in this forum , nor do I feel we need A List to hand out to 15 year olds telling them how to use these illegal substances(thus the perception of advocacy)
 
PH's in my opinion DO NOT promote the HEALTHY lifestyle that I have always considered that DBB stood for. Again just my two cents worth , not trying to offend anyone.....

Current supps: Cell Tech,Superpump 250,Animal pak,ON 100% whey ,P-Plex,MDROL,Perfect cycle,ForMadrol Extreme,Hawthorne berry,SAw Palmetto,Red yeast,CoQ10

ORIGINAL: bulkingup

PH's in my opinion DO NOT promote the HEALTHY lifestyle that I have always considered that DBB stood for. Again just my two cents worth , not trying to offend anyone.....

 
That is an excellent point.  Legality aside, they aren't healthy.  I'm glad you said that.  This site should definitely stay towards being healthy.
 
 
And veg, I found some articles about them (and I spent like 30 minutes doing it actually) that were good articles, but of course I had to find the ones written by geniuses.  I basically didn't understand whether or not they:
 
1.) stopped production of estrogen
2.) acted like estrogen, taking its place
3.) attached to estrogen, making it inactive
4.) made effects of estrogen less noticeable
 
By the name "SERM" I assumed either #2 or #3, but those articles were too complex for me.  I understand it now though. 
 

first off, i was just proving the whole legality thing was bulls*** when i posted that link

second, if we are anti-steroid and PH, then why don't any of the mods do s*** about deleting threads about the two subjects.  in all the time mods spent bulls***ting in this thread they could have been screening through others and deleting ph and steroid threads.

to sum it all up... either remain anti-steroid and PH and delete the threads or give in and allow them.  Don't say that the site is against any of that and then allow it to be discussed here

Age: 18
Height: 5'7"
Body Weight: 180-185
BF %: 8 %
Incline Barbell: 195 x 8
Squat: 295 x 8, ass to ground
Shoulder Press: 175 x 8
Barbell Row: 195 x 8
Skullcrushers: 105 x 10
(All lifts are on 3rd set)

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14


to sum it all up... either remain anti-steroid and PH and delete the threads or give in and allow them.  Don't say that the site is against any of that and then allow it to be discussed here

 
I agree 100%

Current supps: Cell Tech,Superpump 250,Animal pak,ON 100% whey ,P-Plex,MDROL,Perfect cycle,ForMadrol Extreme,Hawthorne berry,SAw Palmetto,Red yeast,CoQ10

ORIGINAL: toolman4052

ORIGINAL: bulkingup

PH's in my opinion DO NOT promote the HEALTHY lifestyle that I have always considered that DBB stood for. Again just my two cents worth , not trying to offend anyone.....

That is an excellent point.  Legality aside, they aren't healthy.  I'm glad you said that.  This site should definitely stay towards being healthy.


And veg, I found some articles about them (and I spent like 30 minutes doing it actually) that were good articles, but of course I had to find the ones written by geniuses.  I basically didn't understand whether or not they:

1.) stopped production of estrogen
2.) acted like estrogen, taking its place
3.) attached to estrogen, making it inactive
4.) made effects of estrogen less noticeable

By the name "SERM" I assumed either #2 or #3, but those articles were too complex for me.  I understand it now though. 

SERMS basicly alter the way your bodies cells recieve and use estrogen.  It almost mimics estrogen.

AFAA(Aerobics and Fitness Associations of America) Certified Personal Trainer.

SERMs (which basically block the Estrogen Receptor, aka. ER) are NOT to be confused with AIs (which block conversion of testosterone to estrogen). common AIs are: 6-OXO, Novedex XT, Rebound XT, Rebound Reloaded, Formadrol Extreme, etc.

The most commonly used SERMs are:

Tamoxifen (aka. Nolvadex, aka. TAMOXIFENO UR , aka. TAMOXIFENO FERRER, FARMA, aka. TAMOXIFENO LEPORI, aka. TAMOXIFENO CINFA, aka. TAMOXIFENO BAYVIT, aka. TAMOXIFENO EDIGEN, aka. TAMOXIFENO ELFAR, aka. TAMOXIFENO FUNK, aka. TAMOXIFENO RATIOPHARM, aka. YACESAL, aka. ADIFEN, aka. ZYMOPLEX, aka. Tamox-TEVA, aka. Tamoxifen-CT, aka. Tamoxifen-ratiopharm, aka. Tamoxifen 10 Heumann, aka. Tamoxifen AL 10, aka. Tamokadin, aka. Tamoximerck, aka. Tamoxistad)

note that all SERMs have their own sides (loss of libido) and risks (liver toxicity concerns).

despite the marketing of some companies (touting phytoestrogens such as daidzein or resveratrol as SERM replacement, despite extremely low ER binding affinity), no really effective OTC SERM has been shown so far, AFAIK.

in the US, prescription SERMs can be (legally?) acquired as research chemicals, such as from chemoneresearch.
in the EU, prescription SERMs can be legally acquired via fill-yourself online prescriptions from dutch online apothecaries, such as goldpharma.


Got to admit I did hijack that from someone off of BB.com but the dude is so damn informative.  I don't know that much about pro hormones I am just starting to do more research on them.  Wanted to know what you can stack with what ya know?  I would hate to take 2 mythlated substances and really really stress my liver.   


Anyways just thought I would share that post with you guys.

The guy is informative as hell.  this guys advice should be used as stickys for bodybuilding forums.  I did not even know that SERMS had an affect on the liver or the libido.