new info for me

when i first started liftin, i was told that 5 sets at 5 reps is to build MASS......now i hear that 10-12 is for MASS and 5 for 5 and even 8 sets 3 reps is for STRENGTH only......i got alot of info off ANIMALPAK.COM sumthin to think about

You can build mass with 5 X 5 and also build mass with 8-10 set.
The only difference is that when doing 5 X 5 you will gain both strength and mass.
You will gain less strength if you lift less heavy.
More reps means more endurance...over 10 reps is neither fro strengh or mass

BUT if you always lift heavy with few reps, you will end looking like a trucker ! (you will be strong and massive) but wou won't have any definition at all !

hope this helped

BUT if you always lift heavy with few reps, you will end looking like a trucker ! (you will be strong and massive) but wou won't have any definition at all !

Actually, I think definition is gained through cardio and nutrition, whether you lift heavy or not. Lifting heavy while you're cutting is a good way to try and retain the muscle you already have while you're losing the fat that's covering it.

3's are for strength. You won't get big doing them. 5's are for strength, but can help increase size to a limit. All the people I train who want to get bigger have had great results with a combination of strength training and some bodybuilding. 5x5 and 3x15 in the same session.

"Z Last Book You'll Ever Need On Strength Training"
by Todd E. Bostrom

ORIGINAL: cpl

BUT if you always lift heavy with few reps, you will end looking like a trucker ! (you will be strong and massive) but wou won't have any definition at all !

Actually, I think definition is gained through cardio and nutrition, whether you lift heavy or not. Lifting heavy while you're cutting is a good way to try and retain the muscle you already have while you're losing the fat that's covering it.

Usually when training in strength and mass, you won't have that much definition because it causes muscles to look more round ...I cannot explain it well in English but what I mean is that the muscles will be big but even with cardio and nutrition but they won't have the definition needed. Training with 3 set of 4-6 reps doesn't allow enough time to break muscles fibers (the slow fibers). Then following this won't have enough definition. You will grow but you still have to change the way you train to add definition.
MAX-OT may be a good thing to enlarge muscles and gain power but this is not enough at a certain point if you need more definition.
You may say that training 10-12 reps will create a power loss, therefore you will not create muscles. Not exactly, by breaking muscles fibers, you still stimulate muscles but remember that you have 2 types of fibers in a muscle, the fast and the slow ones. When doing more reps you reach the point where even the slow fibers have to break.
To add definition you have to train differently with more reps and still do cardio and eat right.
I'd like to argue again on this subject. If anything is contradictive for you..let me know ! :)

Definiton is through diet and cardio.

The only thing that you may be thinking of is the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy in regards to higher rep training. This is pumping the muscle fibers up with sarcoplasmic fluid. That's why BBers need to lift every week, otherwise their muscles will look "flat".

You can train with 5x5 all the time, eat clean, do cardio and have good definition.

"Z Last Book You'll Ever Need On Strength Training"
by Todd E. Bostrom

I have yet to post my workouts for this new routine that I'm doing, but I have to concur with you, Nic. I'm doing a 4 day split routine and most of the lifts are 3x10. I'm still only on my first week, but it brings back the memories of when I was in the gym. Back them I was doing 3x12 for most lifts. I can see where 5x5 is good for strength and mass, but IMHO 3x10 will stimulate the muscle more. It might not increase strength, but I think when you are bulking you're looking to add size. It makes more sense to me to add strength when you're cutting with the 5x5, but do 3x10 or even 4x10 for adding size when bulking.

I have a hard time believing that 5x5 breaks down the muscle fibres for size as good as 3x10. I think rep range between 3-6 will give you more strength and less size. 8-10 will give you more size than strength. Anything above 12 will be more for endurance than anything else.

Again, I think it's important to track progress and find out what set x rep combos work for you for any given goal. I know working mostly within the 6-8 rep range on most lifts for 4 or 5 sets on average, I gained about 10 lbs in about 8 weeks. It'd be interesting to find out what the higher rep range does for me. I can only use my results to show what works for me. As always, what works for me might not work for you.

"Try and fail is the manner of losers. Try and learn is the way of the strong." -- Unknown

[image]http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/8302/opensuse2oi.jpg[/image].

As luck would have it, or maybe me looking on this site for content. That question was answered. And what is very cool, is everybody here pretty much backed up what is said in this article. Along with the chart. Good job guys.

What Happens in the Muscles in Response to Different Rep Ranges?

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

this is GREAT infos thank you :D

Here's my problem. Max-OT says overload creates muscle, not reps. But this article (and my above post) goes completely against this idea. Not saying that anyone's views on rep ranges is wrong, but doesn't it vary according to your own body? Obviusly anything below 6 reps will build pure strength because of human adapation. But isn't the point of bodybuilding to not allow your body to adapt? IMHO soreness means you have worked your muscles enough to break the fibers. This creates size. 8-12 reps will no doubt create soreness. When I did 5 or 6 reps I never really felt sore. Yeah, I was getting big, but my strength increased too. I think, if I remember correctly, I actually made more size gains when I was 8-12 reps.

Honestly, it doesn't matter what a million articles on rep ranges say. If something works for you, stick with it, but don't be afraid to try new things that might work better. Nobody ever got anywhere by simply following. Follow, then take what you have learned and become your own leader

"Try and fail is the manner of losers. Try and learn is the way of the strong." -- Unknown

[image]http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/8302/opensuse2oi.jpg[/image].

ORIGINAL: slayerboy

Nobody ever got anywhere by simply following. Follow, then take what you have learned and become your own leader

This is like poesy !

Max-OT seems to work right on the border of strength and size (according to the article posted) above.

(1-5) max strength
(6-12) max size
(4-6) Max-OT

Everyone has to remember though; just because you are doing 1-5 reps doesn't mean you wil get stronger. It's not that magical. You must choose the proper % of 1rm at the correct time to do this optimally. And same goes for 6-12 reps. % of 1 rep max(or the like) must be taken into consideration when prescribing weight for the sets.

"Z Last Book You'll Ever Need On Strength Training"
by Todd E. Bostrom

What % of your 1rm do you use to find out how much weight to use?

Blake
Age 19
Hieght ~5'10.5"
Weight ~196
Bench ~275
Squat ~390
Dead Lift ~375
MilitaryPress ~200
Hang Clean ~205
6-17-07
Put this in your profile if you or someone you know is fighting, has survived, or has died in a pokemon battle

It varies based on your experience. Beginners will start out with a higher % than an experienced lifter would.

Sorry, but I can't give away hard #'s based on my training protocol.

"Z Last Book You'll Ever Need On Strength Training"
by Todd E. Bostrom

Well I think I would still consider myself to be a beginer could you maby give me like a ballpark percentage, like would I use 60-70% being a beginner? Or would it be higher like 70-80 or even 80-90%?


I realy, realy want to get stronger, im not as worried about my size but getting bigger as I gain strength would be nice.

I know you realy can't give me a hard number as you said but maby just something close that most beginners start with, because I realy don't know exactly what im doing when it comes to figuring out how much weight I should be workin out with.

Blake
Age 19
Hieght ~5'10.5"
Weight ~196
Bench ~275
Squat ~390
Dead Lift ~375
MilitaryPress ~200
Hang Clean ~205
6-17-07
Put this in your profile if you or someone you know is fighting, has survived, or has died in a pokemon battle

A great way for a beginner to find out what weight they should be working with is this- Pick a rep range, say 8-10 for now. When you find the weight that you can do no more than ten reps with before your form goes bad, that's your weight- If you can do more than ten, it's too light, and if you can't do eight reps with it, it's too heavy.

Aight I'll try that.

Thx.

Blake
Age 19
Hieght ~5'10.5"
Weight ~196
Bench ~275
Squat ~390
Dead Lift ~375
MilitaryPress ~200
Hang Clean ~205
6-17-07
Put this in your profile if you or someone you know is fighting, has survived, or has died in a pokemon battle

you have 2 types of fibers in a muscle, the fast and the slow ones.

This is a great thread... the above is a great thing to remember. I started a routine like a couple of weeks ago alternating between light and heavy sessions (Iposted it in the training forum titled Light/Heavy Training cycle) and I have nothing but good things to say about it. My muscles have looked the fullest and hardest ever!! The 10-12 rep days feel great as well, my arms in particular are responding the best to this rep range. Regardless of how many studies come out regarding the best rep ranges... if it works, just keep doing it and don't agonize over the whys and hows. I agree with everything Slayerboy said.

The 2 types of fibers is what got me when I first heard of it. It really makes sense with what I have seen with different lifters over the years. I have seen really strong people fail at simple reps and succeed at very heavy weight, while smaller folks could double and triple the reps of the lighter weight. In one of the books I have read, forget which, they explained red fibers and white fibers. One for burst strength and one for endurance use. The unfortunate thing I have read is that there is no way to maximize both. You can work for a medium for the 2, but you can not seriously grow one type without diminishing the other.

Laser

Showing up is half the battle.

My Bowling Business!!! H & E Bowling Supply
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Current Max Weights:
Bench 325
Squat 550
Deadlift 505

My goal is to get to 1400 total for the 3 lifts