natural bodybuilding

what may happen is u start being all natural as u call it and once your not seeing any results it'll be back to the supplements happens all the time

well that page that marc put up, what does natural really mean, seemed to answer all my questions. and it pretty much said everything that i have decided to go by anyways.
 
and if you are strong enough in mind, you wouldnt need supplements to gain or loose when you werent able to naturally. again i am not dissing supplements, for some people it just makes it easier and fits their lifestyle more than it would without.
 
for me personally, i just felt that supplements were becoming more of a crutch than an aid. so i was finding myself irritated when i didnt see results and would just go try something else. and when something did work for me, i would never go with out it. and like the no-xplode, i have to take it and wait until it "kicks in" so that it will work properly. i dont like having to wait, or having to take this because i am taking this and i would get better results stacking products.
 
that is the reason why i decided to go natural. if i have to take something at a certain time, or a certain way, then what is the point? and there is basically no way to get passed the whole processed part of anything. unless you kill it and grow it yourself, it is going to be processed. so i understand that part now. but i still believe that if a product is enhanced, or enhances normal effects then it is not natural. so to me, in my own damn personal opinion, taking creatine, not natural. eating foods that contain it, natural.

and why is it most of you dont even use proper grammar?

^he should see results if he gets his diet straight. If he can't manage to get enough protein from proper dieting tho... then he won't grow.

Official Sand Bagger of the Emancipation Detoxification. Protecting n00bs from floods since 2/12/08.

creatine i consider natural since its made in your body

protein is the easiest thing to get from foods. for the main reason that i love eggs, chicken, fish, meat, peanut butter, etc. so there is no problem there, the tricky part is making sure that you cook them right and eat them right, otherwise you wont get the full effects. all this i already know, most of which i got the knowledge from this forum, mainly danmariage though.
 
so yeah i know what my diet should consist of and how much as well. the only thing is that i build muscle very, very easily, and this from when i never even knew about supplements. even when i didnt diet right, i still got nice gains.

ORIGINAL: ebbearsfb1

creatine i consider natural since its made in your body

Well, this definition doesn't fly.  So are steroids.  But when we say someone is a natural bodybuilder, we mean no juice, right?

"If there's nothing else that's relevant, I'll be leaving now"

"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground"

ORIGINAL: chisum1357

and why is it most of you dont even use proper grammar?

"And why is it most of you don't even use proper grammar?" If you're going to nitpick on the way people type do it all the way and do it yourself too. ;)

shouldve been more specific on what i meant by that. i actually said the same thing in "what are your pet peeves" and there i actually put what i meant by that. forgot to do it here.
 
what i meant was, what is with the whole using like 1 or 2 letters to express a whole word. and why dont most of you go over what you just typed to make sure that each word is at least put in proper order. nto lke this. thats all i was saying, like i said, not calling anyone stupid here.

I agree Chisum that there is a destructive path of behavior that occurs when you feel there must be some "secret potion" out there which will build muscle with hardly any effort. And so you shop around trying new things all the time, and some work, some don't.  
 
It sounds to me like you're a science-starved fellow. There's a huge difference between reading muscle ads and reading scientific journals which talk about the effects of nutrient supplements on the human body. There has been substantial scientific documentation on the positive effects of Creatine, Glutamine, other free amino acids, and Whey on exercise performance. So, doesn't it make sense to utilize those supplements?
 
I don't understand for what reason you're quitting supplements though.  The principle behind them is to supplement needed nutrients to the body WHEN it needs them where the diet may not be enough to support it. Were supplements you were taking working before? If so, why would you stop doing something if it was working? Is your goal to save money?
 
It is your choice of course to stop using supplements.  However, one fact is clear.  You will not get as good of results off the supplements as you would on. That's just a scientific reality. It's been proven and proven. So deal with that information how you want.
 
One thing is clear however.  You must have a flair for the dramatics and debate. :)  Because if you chose not to buy supplements anymore why did you have to inform the rest of us? Why not just implement your decision on your own without saying a word?  What is it you want from us?

i was wanting to know if there was anyone else who decided to stop taking supplements. and yeah the things i was taking before i decided to quit were working great for me. but what would happen if i got hurt and wasnt able to lift weights? it is proven that those who take supplements over someone who doesnt, if they both get hurt and cant work out for the same amount of time, the guy who took the supplements would loose his muscle faster than the one who didnt take them.
 
i am not saying that the one who doesnt use supplements will not loose muscle, he just wont loose so much. and that would be a waste of time.
 
but the main reason why i decided to stop is because i didnt like the "high" i was getting from the supplements. and instead of wasting more money trying other supplements that are basically the same thing, i decided just to go back to the way i used to be. believe it or not when i used to lift without the use of supplements, i got better results, and i always had a "natural high", like the ones i get when i get tattoos. i like that endorphine feeling a lot more than my muscles trying to explode. that was the feeling i was trying to describe.

I completely understand.  Maybe you should try just the supplemental nutrients themselves rather than some pumped up brand name products with fillers? I like the Sci-fit line.  www.scifitauthentic.com. They offer very simple, nutrient supplements, all based on scientific research, have very effective absorption, and very effective results.
 
I would disagree that those who use supplements would lose muscle faster after an injury.  I'm not sure where you heard that. In fact, BCAA's and Glutamine are used by hospitals for maintaining lean mass and also rehabilitating people who suffered "critical" injuries at the fastest possible rate. That makes sense too, that if you get the raw muscle-building nutrients supplied in excess you shouldn't lose nearly as much muscle.  If you're referring to losing water weight resulting from the use of certain supplements, that could very well happen that you would lose that muscle size.
 
I think you just need to relax a little bit.  Maybe take off from bodybuilding for a while and eat more fruits and vegetables, go off supplements, and reduce protein a little bit just to connect mind and body again and cleanse the system.
 
Bodybuilding isn't for everyone either.  Some may just want to train for fitness in which case maximum muscle size is not the main concern.  Others are concerned with maximum muscle size and are looking to different all-natural testosterone boosters, aminos, whey, etc. to get maximum increases in size and strength.  It's perfectly ok not to have that serious size increase as your goal. And in the longterm it's probably healthiest NOT to be a bodybuilder (in the hardcore sense), but look at overall fitness which includes moderate weightlifting and aerobic and flexibility. But some people make building the maximum mass their goal.  And I applaud those who choose to try supplements instead of steroids to reach their goals. I do believe many could become addicted to supplements for normal nutrition instead of relying on normal food however and that should be addressed.
 
One last point I wanted to make.  Bodybuilders do everything they can to maintain the "anabolic" state with a lot of protein, protein, protein, and amino acid supplements, whey at the right times, and hormone boosters.  That produces great visual muscle results too!  However, sometimes bodybuilders forget that as important as protein is, fruits and vegetables are the basis for overall good health.  I find even myself sometimes not eating as many fruits and veggies as I should because "they don't contribute to muscular development in the way protein does."  However, they provide energy, and vitamins and minerals (along with a host of things we don't know about) which are essential to feeding and nourishing your cells.
 
So if I were you I'd just sit back and relax. Stop lifting for a few weeks.  Eliminate all supplements.  Increase fruits and veggies, and decrease protein from previous levels and keep that up for a couple weeks.  Maybe even consider purchasing one herbal cleansing product just to cleanse the entire system.  You can see where you're at at the end of the period.

ORIGINAL: chisum1357

shouldve been more specific on what i meant by that. i actually said the same thing in "what are your pet peeves" and there i actually put what i meant by that. forgot to do it here.

what i meant was, what is with the whole using like 1 or 2 letters to express a whole word. and why dont most of you go over what you just typed to make sure that each word is at least put in proper order. nto lke this. thats all i was saying, like i said, not calling anyone stupid here.

Ah, its mostly internet slang from instant messenging. It's a bad habit most people have. You know you have it bad when you turn in a paper hand written where you actualy write out "ur" and other stuff like that.

ORIGINAL: ShaqAtack

It sounds to me like you're a science-starved fellow. There's a huge difference between reading muscle ads and reading scientific journals which talk about the effects of nutrient supplements on the human body. There has been substantial scientific documentation on the positive effects of Creatine, Glutamine, other free amino acids, and Whey on exercise performance. So, doesn't it make sense to utilize those supplements?

Going to the journals is one step.  But they aren't the end-all, be-all.  They just report the results of a particular study.  My experience in reviewing such studies (or reviewing others' reviews of such studies) is that they are child's play to critique.  There are a lot of problems in them:  the sample size is often ridiculously small, subjects are matched, at best by sex and maybe age (almost never by any genetic criteria, and sometimes by fitness levels), a lot of other variables aren't controlled for (sleep, other daily activity, diet, exercise--not saying all these are always ignored, but these are some that would seem important to be aware of), etc.

The problem is not the scientists, it's their subjects:  people.  People make poor lab rats.  They have free wil, lie to researchers, and disobey the requirements, and still pocket the stipends.  And cash.  It takes a lot of money to do a big study that will have closer to conclusive results.

I also admit to an undying suspicion directed to studies done by the supplement companies.  Yes, supposedly a third party is often hired to do the study and provide the results, and I'm sure there are reputable ones out there.  But in the end, who's the client?  Who's paying the bills?

Having said that, a meta-analysis of many small studies, however flawed, can suggest that some suppements are more likely than not to have a beneficial effect without causing harm.  If they are otherwise harmless, then there is no reason to not take them.

"If there's nothing else that's relevant, I'll be leaving now"

"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground"

No the journals aren't the "end-all be-all", successful experience with the supplements is.  And if the scientific-recommended supplements were working, why stop?

Don't get me started on the sheer volume of well-performed, "comprehensive" studies that have been completed. If you would like I can do some work over the next weekend and post a very long post full of such information for you to play with over creatine, glutamine, BCAA's, protein and carbs after exercise versus 3 hours later, association between insulin and increased protein synthesis, comparing water, sports drink, protein drink alone, carbohydrate with protein drink, and placebo.

You show very little respect for scientists. Did you ever think why many of studies have to involve a low number of participants?  That's because they have to control their lives;  their eating habits, when they exercise, which exercise they do, they all have to be the same.  In many cases, those who submitted themselves to the study are under constant supervision which throws your human nature argument out the window. Some of the United States best scientists have done these things. Unbiasedness is their forte.

While their "child's play" as you called it to critique at least the scientists are trying to do something constructive. How do you suggest scientists match subjects up by genetic material?  Seeing as everyone's genetics are COMPLETELY different than every other.  Even those in the same immediate family can respond differently to exercise due to gene differences in muscle fiber count (and type) and hormone levels. Is what you are suggesting to include people of the same body type?  Everyone has different percentages of ectomorphism or mesomorphism anyhow.  In the end, human beings are different, but they're very much the same as well.  And when you get remarkable results from one concoction with many different people (with differing genetics) compared to placebo, which the volunteers also possibly assumed was the experimental potion, you had a result with that study!

And you're talking to a scientist, so I'm very aware how much money it costs to fund a study.  I can tell you this is the main reason sport's physiologists keep the studies down to only 5-10 peopls most times, the other reason being to have enough manpower to observe them around the clock many times.

You said:

"I also admit to an undying suspicion directed to studies done by the supplement companies.  Yes, supposedly a third party is often hired to do the study and provide the results, and I'm sure there are reputable ones out there.  But in the end, who's the client?  Who's paying the bills? "

That is a completely different ballpark.  Most legitimate supplement companies quote previously-done studies rather than the one's they asked to be completed.  However, most supplement companies are not legitimate! :)  So there you have it.  You won't get any argument from me. That's why I suggest reading journals and college department websites as opposed to supplement company ads.

"Having said that, a meta-analysis of many small studies, however flawed, can suggest that some suppements are more likely than not to have a beneficial effect without causing harm.  If they are otherwise harmless, then there is no reason to not take them."

I'm a bottom line kind of guy, and that is the bottom line. Not only will it likely not cause harm, but you can be quite sure if the study was published with a result that you will receive a benefit.