PHs and Steroids [Was: Question]
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PHs and Steroids [Was: Question] - 12/29/2003 7:43:48 PM
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Ironpumper
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I read the rules about not posting about steroids and I don't know if this is stepping out of bouncs and if it is i apologize and feel free to remove this post. I was just wodnering was is the difference between steroids and pro-hormones. At first I thought they were the same but now I guess they aren't.
{As a side note I am against steroids 100% but unfortunately they are a big part of our sport and I was just wondering the similarity with pro-hormons}
< Message edited by Twin Peak -- 12/30/2003 6:34:04 AM >
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RE: Question - 12/30/2003 6:32:51 AM
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Twin Peak
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A steroid, or more correctly and anabolic steroid, is an exogenous hormone.
Use of an anabolic steroid increases ones hormone levels to supra-physiological levels (i.e. levels one could not achieve naturally).
Most steroids are inactive when taken orally, thus they are injected. A few are altered (like dianabol) to make them active orally. One such method is my methylating the steroid. The methylation cause the steroid to pass through the liver mostly unharmed. This, however, makes it quite taxing on the liver.
As well, most oral steroids are not very anabolic (muscle building) and so any experience steroid expert will tell you that a "cycle" should never only include orals (i.e. you could stack orals with injectibles).
A "pro-hormone" is something that is not an active hormone (like a steroid) but it is a precursor to a steroid. In other words, there are enzymes in your body that can convert the PH into an active hormone (steroid).
For example, 4-androstendiol will convert to testosterone (via an enzyme in the body).
1, 4 androstendiol will convert to boldenone (a steroid).
1 androstendiol (1-AD) will convert to 1-testosterone.
Interstingly 1-testosterone is an actual steroid, but a legal one (there are many OTC supps that incorporate it). It is often referred to as a pro-steroid, because (for now) it is a legal supplement.
So, PHs (and PSs) in order to qualify as a "dietary supplement" must be taken orally (pursuant to the DSHEA). So you again are back to the issue of how potent this PH/PS will be, since it is not very "bioavailable".
People estimate that the PH/PSs are anywhere from 5-40% bioavailable. Some individuals have injected these (illegally) in which case you'd see results similar to various illegal anabolic compounds.
But orally, they will ultimately provide some exogenous hormones (and this you see many people claiming terrific results) just not as much as anything delivered via injection.
So, the biggest difference between PHs (and especially PSs) and illegal anabolic compounds is the delivery mechanism.
Now, recently we are seeing chemists methlylating some of these PHs and PSs. Methyl 1-Test is very big right now. It is highly orally active and rivals any "true" steroid. Its also pretty harsh on the liver.
And so with M1T, we are seeing some outrageous growth.
And other companies are starting to Methylate other PHs and PSs.
Many experts believe that once one of these (currently) legal compounds are methylated, they become illegal. So this is very much a grey area.
Hope this helps.
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(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Question - 12/30/2003 7:22:43 AM
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djduhon
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quote:
Now, recently we are seeing chemists methlylating some of these PHs and PSs. Methyl 1-Test is very big right now. It is highly orally active and rivals any "true" steroid. Its also pretty harsh on the liver.
Please explain further, I have not seen anyone taking any over-the counter anything that ever came close to the results of a legit under-the-border roid. Let me say that I have never and will never, but you can't argue with the results.
Thanks,
D
(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: Question - 12/30/2003 7:27:58 AM
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Twin Peak
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What do you want me to further explain?
VPX is the only large company that sells one of these. You can buy it cheaper at a number of places including legalgear.com, or cheaper at kilosports.com or much cheaper at bulknutrition.com.
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(in reply to djduhon)
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RE: Question - 12/30/2003 9:24:38 AM
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Marc David
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Thanks TP. That post was the bomb. No need to dig up further.
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RE: Question - 12/30/2003 12:02:54 PM
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djduhon
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I hope you didn't take offense, I am by no means saying that you don't know what you are talking about.
I have seen alot of ad campaigns by the supp manufacturors claiming to be as good as gear. In my experience I have never seen any over-the counter supp that produced the same results as a roid cycle. I have used VPX supps in the past and they were phenominal... but again, while good not that good. So I guess what I'm asking is, have you used this supp? Aside from a supp manufaturors claim how do I know that this stuff is as good as gear?
Thanks,
D
(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: Question - 12/30/2003 12:09:46 PM
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Twin Peak
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I think you missed my point. You need to dissect your question, is it as good as gear? Also, you need to define "gear"; as there are many types of gear, all of which will produce different results.
Again, let me repeat, it is the mode of administration that makes most PHs and PSs not "as good as gear."
Now, when you are talking about methyl 1-testosterone, it is (in my opinion) as good as any oral illicit steroid.
Will you get better gains from injectible testosterone, etc -- likely.
Will you get excellent gains from M1T (and steroid like side effects) -- surely.
Will any supplement meet most marketing claims -- not likely, as most companies spew **** out of their corporate asses.
And yes, I have used M1T, but have never used an injectible to compare it with. I also personally know dozens of others who have used it, some of who have used injectibles to compare it with.
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(in reply to djduhon)
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RE: Question - 12/30/2003 12:17:02 PM
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djduhon
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Thanks for the clarification... maybe I'll give it a shot in a month or so. My point was simply that we've all heard the claims and bought into them (from our wallet). A bottle of Paradeca was $100 a few years ago and it was good stuff, but 5lbs of muscle in a month doesn't compare to the gains I would have seen if I was on a roid cycle (from what I've been told). Thanks for the insite into this product.
My understanding of what you are saying is this... it may not be as good as the claim, but it's by far the best PH/PS on the market so if you're going to use one this is the one to use.
Thanks Twin,
D
< Message edited by djduhon -- 12/30/2003 4:28:12 PM >
(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: Question - 12/30/2003 12:36:34 PM
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Twin Peak
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Yes and no. Its certainly the most potent on the market. But its also the harshed on the liver. So its ultimately your call.
BTW, bulknutrition has it for 10 bucks.
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(in reply to djduhon)
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RE: Question - 4/3/2004 5:34:57 PM
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djduhon
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HERE WE GO TWIN... I gotta swallow my pride Bro so hold tight for a second... <GULP>. OK
I was wrong you were right. M1T gave me the results I would expect from a legit cycle. No, I don't have first hand experience in what actual gear, and that's why I said "expect".
I took measurements and weights and all that stuff and I'l post that at a later date... probably much later at the rate I'm on now, but here's the low-down-ho-down. Day 1 I weighed in at 173 (admittedly slightly dehydrated and after a weekend of starvation, so let's assume my natural bodyweight at that time was 175) in 2 weeks I peaked out at 184... not too shabby. My waist size remained unchanged, so very little of that came from fat gain and I was eating constantly (striving for 7-8 meals a day). I'm down to 180 right now after a few weeks of toning up a tad and I'll hit it again for another 2 weeks to kill off the remaining supply after Easter.
My appologies, I should have never questioned your vast knowledge base... lol, it won't happen again until next time.
YOU DA MAN TWIN, Thanks bro.
Oh, I should state the side effects I experienced... nosebleeds evidently from elevated blood pressure, so stay well hydrated. I did take some measurements to monitor it and it never got out of hand but if your on that bubble already definitely a consideration. Other than that -- NONE.
D
(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: Question - 4/6/2004 2:58:48 PM
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Bretprc
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Hi everyone out there
I dont know whether this is the correct forum for this? Or whether anyone out there can help. Let me explain!
I come from the Solihull area of England, I am employed as a Harm Reduction Specialist in the Borough of Solihull. One of my primary aims is to set up a needle/equipment exchange for drug users/steroid users in the area. I would appreciate any contact in the strictest of confidence from anyone who lives in the area or indeed anyone who may want to comment about this. Please be reassured that my only aim is to reduce the harm caused by improper use of equipment used in injecting, whether this may be as a result of a lack of knowledge or non availability of correct equipment. I have very little knowledge about the sport so go easy on me in respect of terms used.
What happens around the world (USA etc) regarding this.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks fellas
Regards
Brett
(in reply to djduhon)
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RE: Question - 4/7/2004 8:47:12 AM
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john23
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I have been doing alot of reading on M1T over the past couple weeks. I am now debating taking it along with 4AD for just one 2week cycle followed by 6OXO for PCT 2weeks and call it quits. I guess my question is "will i cause harm to my body from one cycle and should i see dramatic results?"
Any feedback would be great, especially TP.
(in reply to Bretprc)
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RE: Question - 4/23/2004 6:51:25 PM
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Mark1810
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quote:
Now, when you are talking about methyl 1-testosterone, it is (in my opinion) as good as any oral illicit steroid.
Thats extraordinary! By "any" I am thinking you are including dianabol,( which helped me blow through plateaus in no time flat! ) and anadrol ( I wouldn't dare!)
Without the ability of 1-test to aromatize, unlike the two I've just mentioned, water retention and the associated puffiness (moon face) shouldn't be a problem.
What I am concerned about is the lethargy. How do you have a good workout if you can't keep your eyes open or focus?
Molecular Nutrition's "3-alpha" I am hoping will combat the problem, as it is suppose to have a cns stimulatory effect as well as being a cutting ph. Am I hoping against hope? Opinions please!!
(in reply to john23)
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RE: Question - 4/26/2004 4:04:51 AM
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Magik23
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Im taking Ephedra and Cafein with 1-TEST / 1,4 AD. 5AA, 4DIOL and i see a incredible gain in strenght. I started my cycle 2 weeks ago ... so another 2 weeks and i quit ... i see 2 sides effects until now .... acne and insomania. Imsnomnia is probably du to the stimulant ...
(in reply to Mark1810)
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RE: Question - 5/9/2004 3:45:02 PM
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GoalKeeper7486
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quote:
I guess my question is "will i cause harm to my body from one cycle and should i see dramatic results?"
It depends on your genetic makeup. I didnt take M1T, I took Methyl-D, which is suppose to have a lower risk of side effets, and be more powerful than M1T. I had no sides at all when I used it, in fact I havent ever had any sides to any prohormone I've ever taken (maxteron,equibolan,tmm-100,Methyl-D...the list gos on from there..lol). However, others have had effects that made them stop taking Methyl-D after only 1 week, some say they pissed blood, some couldn't stand the stomach pain. I Havent felt any of these sides or any at all, and I take 6-8 pill a day, as to the reccomended 3, so its all genetics. If you have taken PH's in the past and got away without any sides, then you probably will here, if you didnt before, then I would ask yourself how bad they were before, and if you feel like multiplying them by two. By the way, I am going to start a M1T stacked with something, I havent decided yet, soon, to see if it really isnt as good as Methyl-D.
Note: On Methyl-D I actually lost 3 pounds of fat I didnt even know I had...lol, Muscles have gotten much bigger though.
"There is no off season" - Me
(in reply to Magik23)
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RE: Question - 8/20/2004 9:05:24 AM
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jad
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Twin Peaks??????.............first off 85% of all "steroids" taken are not anabolic steroids, they are androgenic steroids......the shear fact is that PH are targeted mainly to young people, due to the fact that they can acquire them easily. ANY type of an oral tablet is taxing on the liver, including aspirin. And their are many, many more oral versions of anabolic/androgenic gear, than just Dianobol. Funny how the PH companies try and mimmick or play on the "copy cat" results/marketing of real steroids and their effects. Fact is, that PH are no where close to what REAL hormones will do to the human body. If us older and more responsible bodybuilders that visit sites like this would be prudent to give good, healthy and responsible advice to younger kids getting headstrong into our lifestyle. THEIR IS NO MAJIC PILL!!!!!!! Dont take PH and dont take AAS until you have at least 5 years of serious training and knowledge of what a proper anabolic diet is, and exactly how the musculoskeletal system works. I could personally train anyone of these 18 year olds in here without any type of "enhancement" supplement, head to head with another 18 loaded with everytype of PH you could get him to swallow, and guarantee 1000% at the end of 12 weeks of training, my guy would have much more lean body mass. This is due to time, discipline and experience only, not because I claim to be smarter than anyone in here. Twin Peaks, have you explained to these youngsters in here that you are a representative of a company that manufactures and markets all of these "enhancement" supplements, thus having a bias towards these products??? Whether one does or doesnt take any PH or true steroids is an individuals choice and should be respected; but if we as older stewards to our sport and lifestyle dont step up and actually explain to the younger ones the "real" deal than bodybuilding will continue to have sensationalized media and governmental exposure to the horror stories involved.
(in reply to GoalKeeper7486)
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RE: Question - 8/20/2004 9:36:13 AM
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Marc David
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quote:
Twin Peaks, have you explained to these youngsters in here that you are a representative of a company that manufactures and markets all of these "enhancement" supplements, thus having a bias towards these products???
He's been very clear on that.
quote:
Whether one does or doesnt take any PH or true steroids is an individuals choice and should be respected; but if we as older stewards to our sport and lifestyle dont step up and actually explain to the younger ones the "real" deal than bodybuilding will continue to have sensationalized media and governmental exposure to the horror stories involved.
That's what this entire forum is about. If you read the top post below, I think most of us chimed generally agreeing with your statements including Twin Peak. That taking them at a young age is not necessary and risky. And that doing your due diligence in this area is a MUST.
Teen Prohormone Use
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(in reply to jad)
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RE: PHs and Steroids [Was: Question] - 8/20/2004 10:17:55 AM
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Twin Peak
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1) No where do I recommend PH use to anyone, let alone teens.
2) All I have done is educate, everyone has a right to the facts.
3) Not only have I not hidden my affiliation with Avant Labs, I have openly stated it over and over, I have offered free product testing to the members if this board, and it is right there in every post, in my avatar. Indeed, even you were able to figure it out.
4) Avant Labs does not make or sell any prohormone, and has no financial interest in prohormones. In fact, we'd probably increase sales if prohormones were gone; so really, you made quite a stupid accusation.
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(in reply to Ironpumper)
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