RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/11/2003 7:18:50 PM
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Marc David
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Now here' s a coincidence..
AST just released their newsletter.. usually I skim/delete.. but I read the titles..
Something else to add to this debate..
Glutamine Supplementation - The Latest Research by Paul Cribb, AST Director of Research
Note: Many of the things mentioned in this article, Robboe, and Twin Peak, have addressed in previoius posts. It' s only meant as yet another source of similar information.
< Message edited by mda1125 -- 6/11/2003 7:24:25 PM >
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/12/2003 4:17:27 AM
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Robboe
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Remember that AST are selling products and so a lot of these " articles" published by them (and other companies) usually have interpreted the studies in a way they see fit.
For example, the creatine articles all claim is adds LBM and promotes fat loss.
How?
Well, it causes intracellular water retention - the rest is " clever" mathematics.
Take a 200lb guy with 10% bodyfat and load him on creatine.
Say he gains 5lbs of water weight - the caliper skin folds may still be exactly the same, but because he' s up 5lbs as well, he is now 205lbs @ 9.5% bodyfat. Therefore, it can be claimed that the creatine has caused a gain in LBM and a loss in fat.
And that' s kinda the way most companies do this sort of thing - EAS (" HMB feels like deca" ) and MuscleTech (" I lost 40lbs of fat and gained 20lbs of muscle in only 3 weeks using NitroTech and Celltech" ) being the worst.
I also dislike AST, because Paul Cribb and Paul Delia both try to come off as being the " good guys" in a shady industry, when in reality, they' re no better than any of the other bastards in the field.
There are very few " good guys" in supplement retail.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/12/2003 8:25:19 AM
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Gator
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quote:
Remember that AST are selling products and so a lot of these " articles" published by them (and other companies) usually have interpreted the studies in a way they see fit.
Absolutely. I think most of the info in this thread has been debated minus the Supplement company studies. While the AST thing was still valid and a good read, I think Robboe is right.
Too much bias from that company. His analogy of clever mathematics was on the money. 
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/12/2003 4:00:14 PM
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Robboe
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I' ll be able to do quite a lot better than just the two, now, it would seem.
Not yet though. Over the weekend.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/15/2003 8:51:38 AM
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Robboe
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I could post what i have, but i may go one better, so i' m gonna go all par Deustra on you guys and hold off posting.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/15/2003 10:44:21 AM
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Marc David
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The Ultimate Nutrient: Glutamine/the Essential Nonessential Amino Acid
by Judy Shabert, Nancy Ehrlich (Contributor)
Found it on Amazon.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/15/2003 10:58:58 AM
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Marc David
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Glutamine: Does Supplementation Benefit Athletes?
Glutamine—the latest hype. Athletes you work with may be asking you about this “new†supplement. Glutamine, an amino acid found in high concentrations in animal proteins, is believed to improve the immune system and prevent the loss of muscle mass. But what do we know about this amino acid?
Multiple Roles of Glutamine
Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in plasma as well as skeletal muscle. It accounts for more than 60% of the total intramuscular free amino acid pool. It is generally referred to as a non-essential amino acid because the body’s skeletal muscle and adipose tissue can produce most of what the body needs. However, recent evidence supports the idea that glutamine is a “conditionally essential†amino acid. For example, under conditions of severe stress, the amount of glutamine the body produces is insufficient to meet the demands of the body.
The varied roles of glutamine in the body include acting as a carrier, a buffer, a substrate for cell synthesis, and a fuel source. Glutamine is a major fuel of the gastrointestinal tract, especially during fasting. The GI tract accounts for 40% of the total gluatmine used by the body. Glutamine is also used by the GI tract to maintain protein synthesis required by the high turnover rate of entrocytes.
Glutamine is also a fuel source for cells of the immune system and hair follicles. During fasting and metabolic acidosis, glutamine is used as a fuel source by the kidneys to support renal ammoniagenesis. Glutamine is also used for glucose and urea synthesis in the liver, while in the brain glutamine is used as a precursor for neurotransmitter substances. During metabolic acidosis, glutamine is converted to a-ketogluterate, thus generating ammonium ions (NH4+). The excretion of ammonium ions helps buffer the acidotic condition. Additional roles of glutamine that may be relevant to active individuals are its function in glycogen replenishment after exercise and its antibiotic effect with respect to skeletal muscle.
Supplementation in the Critically Ill
Glutamine supplementation is not new. Human experiments with glutamine supplementation began over ten years ago, primarily in critically ill patients. Studies of patients undergoing abdominal surgery and /or gallbladder removal suggest that glutamine supplementation improved nitrogen balance and improved protein synthesis. Although these studies suggest benefits of glutamine supplementation to certain populations, it may not be relevant to the healthy athlete.
Implications for Athletes
Research indicates that levels of glutamine fall after exhaustive exercise. One theory is that a shortage of glutamine is partially responsible for the increased frequency of illness observed in athletes during periods of heavy training and after endurance competitions. If feeding the body more glutamine to meet the needs in times of heavy endurance training and competition would strengthen the immune system; frequency of illness could be decreased.
In a study conducted on glutamine consumption, athletes consumed glutamine immediately and 2 hours after a marathon and ultramarathon. This reduced the incidence of infections during the week after competition by 32% when compared to the placebo. However, in a follow-up study, researchers were unable to show a positive effect of glutamine on immune function in a group of marathon runners. Current evidence also indicates that adequate glutamine aids the immune system in times of stress. Whether the glutamine needs to be provided in supplement form or provided through an adequate diet remains unanswered.
Glutamine may also function in the preservation of muscle tissue, but there is little evidence to support this claim as well. At this time there is no evidence to support that supplementation will enhance body composition or exercise performance in weight –training athletes.
Diet vs. Supplementation
Animal proteins are rich in glutamine. Therefore, athletes consuming high-protein, high-calorie diets would be the least likely to need glutamine supplementation. Athletes who would be at risk for inadequate glutamine would be those who are competing in endurance events, such as distance running and cycling, and those who do not have adequate intake of calories, carbohydrates, or protein. Glutamine is absorbed efficiently by the intestine when present in the diet.
The value of adequate glutamine in the body is undisputed. What remains unanswered is whether supplementing with glutamine will produce beneficial outcomes for athletes. There has been little research to support any beneficial claims to athletic performance.
Article by Debbi Whitcombe M.S. RD
Reference: SCAN’s Pulse, Spring 2000; Vol. 19 No. 2
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/15/2003 11:09:13 AM
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Marc David
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Some abstract statements hat I found on the web:
Debatable.. but nonetheless.. out there.
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High-protein foods such as meat, fish, beans, and dairy products are excellent sources of glutamine.
Endurance athletes frequently catch an infectious illness after completing a marathon or similar forms of exercise. Preliminary evidence suggests that glutamine (like vitamin C) might help prevent such infections.
Glutamine has been tried as an ergogenic aid for bodybuilders, but two small trials failed to find any evidence of benefit.
Endurance exercise suppresses the immune system. This effect may be due in part to reduction of glutamine in the body, although not all studies agree.
A double-blind placebo-controlled study evaluated the benefits of supplemental glutamine (5 g) taken at the end of exercise in 151 endurance athletes.24 The result showed a significant decrease in infections among treated athletes. Only 19% of the athletes taking glutamine got sick, as compared to 51% of those on placebo.
A double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of 31 individuals ranging from 18 to 24 years of age evaluated the potential benefits of glutamine for improving response to resistance training (weight lifting).35 Participants received either placebo or glutamine at a dose of 0.9 g per kg of lean tissue mass. After six weeks of resistance training, participants taking glutamine showed no relative improvement in performance, composition or muscle protein degradation.
Similarly, negative results were seen in a small, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of weightlifters using a dose of 0.3 g per kg of total body weight.
If you are taking antiseizure medications, includingcarbamazepine, phenobarbital, Dilantin (phenytoin), Mysoline (primidone), andvalproic acid (Depakene), use glutamine only under medical supervision.
Other Potential Benefits:
Recovery from Critical Illness
HIV-Related Weight Loss
Cancer Chemotherapy
double-blind placebo-controlled trial of 70 individuals undergoing chemotherapy with the drug 5-FU for colorectal cancer found that glutamine at a dose of 18 g daily improved intestinal function and structure, and reduced the need for anti-diarrhea drugs.28 However, a double-blind trial of 65 women undergoing various forms of chemotherapy for advanced breast cancer that did seek to discover whether glutamine at a dose of 30 g per day could reduce chemotherapy-induced diarrhea found no benefit.2
Angina
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/15/2003 8:31:53 PM
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kingsquat
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Gotta love glutamine. Probably #2 next to whey protein. I haven' t been sick in about 2.5-3 years.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/16/2003 9:44:33 AM
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Gator
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I read a great 5-page article about glutamine at http://www.smartbodyz.com/Glutamine-Text1.htm if you' re interested in reading it.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/16/2003 9:52:55 AM
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Twin Peak
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robboe
There are very few " good guys" in supplement retail.
Yes, but there are a few.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/16/2003 10:11:40 AM
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Robboe
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Oh they certainly exist.
Also, for all these articles stating the same " benefits" over and over, you can only take with a pinch of salt. The conditions where these beneficial effects are most pronounced are quite a league from the average, regular protein consuming, sensibly training bodybuilder.
A lot of studies have been interpreted by supplement companies as they see fit to assist in promoting their products. Over time, these have just been accepted as fact for all scenarios.
< Message edited by Robboe -- 6/16/2003 10:13:28 AM >
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/16/2003 10:30:20 AM
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Gator
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quote:
Over time, these have just been accepted as fact for all scenarios.
I used to think that as well. I think other forums I' ve been to a cluttered with too many people who are just absolute believers in whatever a company is pushing.
I' ve noticed that while there isn' t a HUGE amount of activity here, the quality of the posts are much nicer.
This thread is pretty is a pretty good example. I was a glutamine lover, but now... not so sure. Some of the arguments against supplementation are pretty well thought out.
And I agree with Robboe. Especially on companies that manipulate the numbers to achieve the presentation they need to sell their wares.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/16/2003 10:39:12 AM
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Robboe
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Gator, try an experiment if you will:
This is going to sound dumb, but ween yourself of glutamine over the course of a few days. This sounds stupid since it' s just an amino acid, i realise, but there' s possibilty that supplementing with high doses over time actually causes your own body to produce less of it' s own buffer (mostly bicarbonate, but glutamine is used to transport ammonia to the kidney where it' s converted to urea and pissed out). This is probably the reason why people complain that when they " come off" glutamine they feel more muscle soreness than usual (equating the glutamine with " recovery" and then going back with it - an expensive habbit in my opinion), since the lactic acid build up is delt with less because there' s less buffer available. of course if these people gave it time before going " back on" glutamine, they' d sharpe notice less soreness because of their own buffering system(s) sorting themselves out to usual levels.
I' m not sure whether this weening process will help significantly, but it' s certainly a possibility.
Once " off" , keep taking vitamin C (1-3g 2-3 hours before training is a good idea for cortisol control) and training as usual.
Give it a few weeks like this and see what differences you notice, if any.
It' ll be an interesting experiment i think, and if i' m right, you' ll save yourself a considerable amount of money each month.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/16/2003 8:40:00 PM
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Marc David
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Why if you can get Creatine via your diet would you supplement with it? Why supplement with Glutamine if your diet provides it as well?
If Creatine supplementation has proven successful, I think the same goes for Glutamine. While you do get it from your diet, supplementing with it can be beneficial.
Just trying to debate a point about getting various nutrients from food. We also get vitamins and minerals from our diets yet we talk a multi-vitamin pill.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/17/2003 4:33:22 AM
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Robboe
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Creatine is in very small amounts in red meat. It' s not occuring in anything else in amounts significant to mention (I' m not even sure if it' s in anything other than red meat?)
You do realise that creatine is actually a structure of three amino acids, right?
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/17/2003 5:41:40 AM
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Twin Peak
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robboe
Creatine is in very small amounts in red meat. It' s not occuring in anything else in amounts significant to mention (I' m not even sure if it' s in anything other than red meat?)
You do realise that creatine is actually a structure of three amino acids, right?
Marc, you know better than the " if it works for creatine, it must work for glutamine" argument. That is weak logic at best; illogical at worst.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/17/2003 7:54:04 AM
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Marc David
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What I mean by if it works for Creatine it might for Glutamine was -- to a much smaller scale the same theory about Creatine holds true when you work out - if you keep a high level of free glutamine, your body will not need to pull glutamine out of the muscles when the stress begins.
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Just in case anybody really wants to tackle what we' ve done here.. 
