RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 8:22:32 AM
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Marc David
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quote:
So you are advocating spending several hundred dollars a year on a product where there are no provable real world effects no provable scientific evidence to stave off muscle atrophy?
As Kris pointed out.. it' s about $110 per year.. that' s pretty cheap in the supp world. But here' s the thing.. (the thing.. hehe).. it' s not about staving off muscle atrophy.. it' s about recovery and immunity.
If you take Glutamine, I don' t think your muscles will be any different then the guy next to you who does not.
What I do think.. (think does not equal scientific proof) is that:
L-Glutamine supplementation promotes a positive
nitrogen balance and prevents the loss of muscle. Recent studies
have shown that taking just 2 grams of L-Glutamine can increase
growth hormone levels by 400%.
You workout.. hard.. then after.. immediately after.. BB tend to do everything they can do prevent a catabolic state.
quote:
that supplementing with glutamine when on an extreme caloric deficit to retain muscle, I' d probably not argue. Though I' d wonder why one would do such a thing.
Glutamine has really proven itself with severe burn victims (recovery) and other situations where caloric deficit has been an issue. A good BB would not go to the extreme caloric deficit, so these particular benefits would not be noticed as a good BB would be eating every 2 hours and thus, not an issue.
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If you are training and eating and properly, one' s concern should not be limited to " retaining muscle" , that is easy, one should be concerned about hypertrophy.
Agreed. And in order to retain muscle, you' ve got to recovery as quickly as possible and recovery for the next workout.
Boosting your immune system is something that indirectly does retain muscle. Getting sick sucks. And taxing your system with an intense workout does open the doors for possible infections.
I can' t tell you how many times I' ve gotten sick right after a leg workout. No other body-parts. So what? So.. working my legs is probably the hardest workout I do. If I was going to get sick.. doing that workout ensures my immunity system is lowered. (Do not word this into leg workouts cause you to get sick). I' m just saying that leg workouts put the greatest stress on the nervous system (for me).
I' d even go as far to say that BB lowers the immune system to some extent. Why? Because the average Joe is not continually breaking down his entire body in order to grow. BB' s are continually taxing their bodies and breaking tissues down at a faster rate. This compromises your immunity system.
quote:
[Note: I have limited this post, and every post to gluts effects on and for a bodybuilder. I have never looked into gluts performance as a general wellness supplement, and indeed this is not how it is touted in this arena.]
Hands down agree. Glutamine has shown considerable positive effects as a wellness supplement for those with other issues then this thread will discuss. I agree TP.. I' m trying to stick to the effects on and for the bodybuilder as well. Must keep a current frame of reference and a good working scope in which to discuss.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 9:07:06 AM
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Gator
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This is probably the longest thread on Glutamine I' ve ever seen.. anyway.. good stuff.. here goes my 2 cents.
*takes a deep breath*
Well glutamine does a lot of things. The first is a cell volumizer which is a strong trigger for protein synthesis.
Its also the primary fuel of the immune system, so alot of what you supplement with is used by it..which is good because it won' t start drawing on muscle stores.
It also helps to regenerate the lining of the intestine to enhance absorption capabilities. Thats a big plus!
It can elevate Growth hormone secretion over 500%...no explanation needed
When combined with other proteins it increases the rate of protein synthesis. The theory behind this is : whey is mainly made of BCAAs which are very easily oxidized and are the main contributers to glutamine formation. When glutamine is supplied in large amounts, it is used rather than the BCAAs in your protein...which allow more to enter muscle and do its thing.
Basically what supplementation does is take the burdon off of your muscle to supply your bodies demand. When you can keep muscle stores of glutamine in take, you' re setting yourself up for positive results. And it keeps you health with a strong immune system so less days missed from being sick.
Thats the important stuff...Im sure there are a few points i missed. but thats it in a nut shell
*gasps for air*
hope that helps. 
(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 9:14:35 AM
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ironmaiden
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I' ve been following this thread.. and it' s been interesting to say the least..
But I' m under the assumption that if you switch to glutamine, you have to remember that doses between 20-40g are typically required a day and its going to be much more expensive.
And you have to be consistent with your supplements. jumping around hap haphazardly like that isn' t going to do anything. you really have to pick what it is you want and bear down on a schedule.
Since 20-40g is required daily for any benefits of L-glute.. then I think TP is correct in asking if you are advocating spending hundreds of dollars a year on a supplement that most people will notice nothing.
Anyway.. correct me if I' m wrong about the dosage. It' s just what I' ve been told.
(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 9:30:33 AM
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Twin Peak
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironmaiden
I' ve been following this thread.. and it' s been interesting to say the least..
But I' m under the assumption that if you switch to glutamine, you have to remember that doses between 20-40g are typically required a day and its going to be much more expensive.
And you have to be consistent with your supplements. jumping around hap haphazardly like that isn' t going to do anything. you really have to pick what it is you want and bear down on a schedule.
Since 20-40g is required daily for any benefits of L-glute.. then I think TP is correct in asking if you are advocating spending hundreds of dollars a year on a supplement that most people will notice nothing.
Anyway.. correct me if I' m wrong about the dosage. It' s just what I' ve been told.
See. Not that hard to find advocates of such a dose (not coming down on you IM, you said you have heard thise from many sources, as have I).
As to the previous post, as well as Kris and MDA -- IF ALL THAT IS TRUE, why do we not see positive results in the form of hypertrophy?
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(in reply to ironmaiden)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 9:32:13 AM
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Twin Peak
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Glad to know people are reading this, and now able to make an informed choice of whether or not to use this supplement. I am sure the others agree, but that is what makes taking the time worthwhile.
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(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 9:45:28 AM
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Marc David
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quote:
As to the previous post, as well as Kris and MDA -- IF ALL THAT IS TRUE, why do we not see positive results in the form of hypertrophy?
Simply because Glutamine isn' t about hypertrophy.. it' s about recovery and immunity.
My thought is.. if anybody says taking Glutamine will make you bigger.. increase muscle growth.. that' s bull. Much like NO2 which gives me some motivation to push bigger weights that causes overload.. which does cause muscle growth.. NO2 itself I don' t think or believe will make me bigger.
Glutamine helps recovery, which decreases catabolic reactions, which preserves muscle and gets you ready for the next workout. It also boosts the immune system, helping you to avoid being sick. Being sick sucks and has effects (although minor) on muscle tissues as well.
hy·per·tro·phy ( P )
A nontumorous enlargement of an organ or a tissue as a result of an increase in the size rather than the number of constituent cells: muscle hypertrophy.
intr. & tr.v. hy·per·tro·phied, hy·per·tro·phy·ing, hy·per·tro·phies
To grow or cause to grow abnormally large.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hyper·trophic (-trfk, -trfk) adj.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 9:55:54 AM
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Marc David
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quote:
But I' m under the assumption that if you switch to glutamine, you have to remember that doses between 20-40g are typically required a day and its going to be much more expensive.
And here' s where I disagree.
I don' t think that any of the studies ever showed that more then 5-10g a day was necessary.
More isn' t better. Is working out 3 hours better then 45 minutes? No. Taking more glutamine isn' t beneficial either. If you take 20-40g a day.. you will blow thru your stash 4-8x times faster then me. At that rate, you are spending hundreds of dollars on a supplement that doesn' t seem to have any noticeable effects on for for the bodybuilder.
5-10g is all you need. Making it a very affordable and long lasting supplement.
That 2-40g stuff is a myth and has no basics of fact in any of the studies (sure wish I' d quote a study rather then say the word study [:' (] )
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 5:06:54 PM
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Robboe
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Latter stages of dieting, maybe - but i' d turn to BCAA' s for muscle preservation way before glutamine (for pysiological/biochemical reasons firstly, and financial reasoning second).
In calorie surplus, there is no need for glutamine whatsoever. It' s not even an essential amino acid (unless you' re doing a marathon or suffering from extreme burns).
There are even at least two studies showing that glutamine does pretty much arse-all for anything really.
And about hGH releases - there is a HUGE difference between physically injecting yourself with several (2-6) iu' s of synthetic growth hormone and some piss-poor " natural" release. Latter stages of dieting, this may help some as far as stubborn fat deposits are concerned. Don' t expect miracles though.
And cell volumising - carbs do a much better job, are cheaper and a helluva lot tastier. Unless you' re doing a low carb diet, glutamine isn' t really gonna do much in this regard - of course if you' re low carbing then chances are you' re dieting, so cell volumising may be helpful for strength/muscle retention.
Creatine is also a much cheaper alternative for cell volumising.
And oestrogen promotes glycogen synthesis, which aids in cell volumising, so get some of that down you. (part jest, part serious by the way - oestrogen has a whole host of benefits [and draw backs]).
Ok, getting a bit silly towards the end there, sorry.
And lads, keep the posts shorter - i' m getting a headache.
(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 5:12:33 PM
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Robboe
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By the way, also should state that the alleged " immmune strengthening" of glutamine use is quite overrated.
I' ll comment more when i' ve done a bit more research on that side of the coin.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 5:19:49 PM
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Marc David
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quote:
I' ll comment more when i' ve done a bit more research on that side of the coin.
Okay..
1) I' ll try and keep posts shorter.
2) I' m re-loading as well.. scouring around for more sources and research.
I' ve heard the immune system strength benefit but as with the dosage comment, it very well could be overrated as you say unless I can find something more concrete then " I heard it from a little bird."
I' m not done with this whole thread either.. I find it rather fascinating in the amount of information that we' ve discussed.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 5:20:27 PM
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Robboe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gator
It also helps to regenerate the lining of the intestine to enhance absorption capabilities. Thats a big plus!
Without sounding too silly here, just chewing your food for a bit longer can help in this regard...And it' s free.
But yeah, the digestive system is efficient as hell in anyone who doesn' t have a disorder. Glutamine is hellishly expensive for this sole reason.
quote:
It can elevate Growth hormone secretion over 500%...no explanation needed
Means very little i' m afraid. Natural or induced hGH release has such a small, almost insiginificant effect (unless dealing with stubborn fat maybe) compared to injecting the stuff.
quote:
When combined with other proteins it increases the rate of protein synthesis.
Only proven intravenously. No studies show this orally.
Humongous difference.
quote:
The theory behind this is : whey is mainly made of BCAAs which are very easily oxidized and are the main contributers to glutamine formation. When glutamine is supplied in large amounts, it is used rather than the BCAAs in your protein...which allow more to enter muscle and do its thing.
Depends what you' re using the BCAA' s for (if using them independantly). If Using whey, eat carbs with it - problem solved. In the presence of carbs/insulin, protein is spared.
Apologies for breaking your post up like that. I don' t particularly like doing that, but it' s the easiest thing to do.
(in reply to Gator)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 5:40:09 PM
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Robboe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mda1125
I' ve heard the immune system strength benefit but as with the dosage comment, it very well could be overrated as you say unless I can find something more concrete then " I heard it from a little bird."
The immune system thing comes mainly on the basis that glutamine causes rise in gluthione (or however you spell it) levels, which basically serves as an anti-oxidant.
Of course, just regular exercise causes your body to release more of this anyway to combat the release of free-radicals that exercise induces.
(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 5:40:54 PM
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Marc David
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I' m looking back on the book of posts.. and so far.. I think we can summarize the following:
Glutamine Claims:
- Claims Boosts immune system function
- Maintains muscle mass
- Prevents muscle catabolism (breakdown)
- Enhances glycogen storage
- Aids recovery from exercise
Note: This is just a checkpoint of what' s been debated so far.
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/10/2003 5:47:34 PM
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Robboe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mda1125
I' m looking back on the book of posts.. and so far.. I think we can summarize the following:
Glutamine Claims:
- Claims Boosts immune system function
- Maintains muscle mass
- Prevents muscle catabolism (breakdown)
- Enhances glycogen storage
- Aids recovery from exercise
Note: This is just a checkpoint of what' s been debated so far.
You' ve also got to theorize from an evolutionary point of view here - If the body is going to catobolise muscle tissue to keep the brain and other more vital organs alive and functioning, why would taking a non-essential amino acid stop your body doing so? Other tissues need essential amino acids also, so why would taking one non-essential amino alone do this?
Also, the drop in plasma glutamine levels from exercise only lasts about 2 hours at the most, cause the body works quickly to re-establish homeostasis. Of course, marathon running/extreme burns are a much more severe case of stress than a 40-60 minute weight training session, so don' t apply in this regard. This is one of the main reasons i mentioned that the immune system thing may be overhyped a bit.
(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/11/2003 11:37:17 AM
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Marc David
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quote:
why would taking a non-essential amino acid stop your body doing so? Other tissues need essential amino acids also, so why would taking one non-essential amino alone do this?
Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in the body – comprising approximately half of the free amino acids in the blood and muscle. As a non-essential amino acid, glutamine can be produced in the body by conversion from another amino acid - glutamic acid (primarily by the skeletal muscle and liver. Glutamine’s main functions in the body include serving as a precursor in the synthesis of other amino acids and glucose for energy. Cells of the immune system, the small intestine and the kidney are the major consumers of glutamine.
I would agree.. not an essential amino acid.
I' m finding a lot of research has been done on severe burn victims and other people with extreme health issues.. but for the average BB..
Let' s see what I can find on that..
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/11/2003 11:38:54 AM
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Marc David
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Summary of the Theory Behind Glutamine:
Intense exercise training results in a well-described drop in plasma glutamine levels. Chronically low glutamine levels have been implicated as a possible contributing factor in athletic overtraining syndrome as well as the transient immunosuppression and increased risk of infections that typically affects competitive athletes during intense training and competition. Under conditions of metabolic stress, the body’s need for glutamine may exceed its ability to produce adequate levels – meaning that a dietary source is required to prevent catabolism of skeletal muscle – the primary source of stored glutamine in the body.
-Source SupplementWatch.com
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/11/2003 11:42:03 AM
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Marc David
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Scientific Support
A significant body of scientific literature exists to support the beneficial effects of glutamine supplementation in maintaining muscle mass and immune system function in critically ill patients and in those recovering from extensive burns and major surgery. When plasma glutamine levels fall, skeletal muscles may enter a state of catabolism in which muscle protein is degraded to provide free glutamine for the rest of the body. Since skeletal muscle is the major source of glutamine (other than the diet), prolonged deficits in plasma glutamine can lead to a significant loss of skeletal muscle protein and muscle mass. Very little specific work has been done, however, to address the primary target population for the majority of commercially produced glutamine supplements on the market today – competitive athletes
In recent years, at least a half-dozen studies have been conducted on glutamine supplementation in athletes and a strong basis exists for the efficacy of glutamine supplements in athletic populations. For example, glutamine’s role in immune system support has been shown to prevent infections following intense bouts of physical activity – which tend to reduce plasma glutamine levels. Glutamine supplements have also been shown to play a role in counteracting the catabolic (muscle-wasting) effects of stress hormones such as cortisol, which are typically elevated by strenuous exercise. The function of glutamine in stimulating glycogen synthase, the enzyme which controls the synthesis and storage of glycogen fuel storage in muscles and liver, may provide a mechanism by which glutamine supplements promote enhanced fuel stores. Glutamine supplements cause a rapid rise in cellular glutamine levels and glutamine stores in muscle. Glutamine is also thought to increase cell volume, where it may stimulate the activity of enzymes in the liver and muscles involved in glycogen storage as well as those involved in anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Glutamine supplements have also been hypothesized to increase levels of growth hormone, which may be expected to help stimulate protein synthesis and encourage gains in muscle mass and strength, but reliable evidence for this effect of glutamine supplements has not been demonstrated by clinical studies.
-Source SupplementWatch.com
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/11/2003 4:20:20 PM
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Robboe
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Yes, " prolonged" decreases is plasma glutamine can cause problems - a situation that will probably only occur during lack of food and elevated activity.
Like i said earlier, exercise like lifting weights only decreases plasma glutamine for a couple of hours before re-balancing. Chances are that the average bodybuilder/weight lifter eats after training (and several other times of day), usually instigating insulin release from carbohydrate consumption, which is anti-catabolic. Much more so than a solitary amino acid.
Taking glutamine is only really " required" when you' re deficient - a scenario quite rare for bodybuilders eating so frequently and eating a diet so high in protein.
And about cortisol control - vitamin is just as, if not more effective and a much cheaper source (1-3g about 2 hours before training).
Besides, cortisol from training is semi-beneficial in regards for hypetrophy. After training, for a few hours, you may very well be in a catabolic state (negative protein balance), which is less of an issue with post workout carbs and protein (and electrolytes ideally i suppose). But overall there is a net gain in muscle (providing sensible training and adequate diet).
(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 6/11/2003 4:23:11 PM
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Robboe
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And like i said earlier, i have two abstracts of studies showing that for weightlifters, glutamine does nothing.
(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Need a Supplement Recommendation - 
Just in case anybody really wants to tackle what we' ve done here..
