The Glutamine Analysis

What muscle gaining supplements are people talking about RIGHT NOW? I was thinking about trying biotest products but my search of the other forums revealed " less than expected" results. I am new to this forum and rather new to the supplements. Can someone reccomend one that has proven to have some positive effects. I am mainly looking for some testosterone boosters for some more rapid muscle gain.

Basically more BANG for my BUCK when it comes to time in the gym. I' m not looking for a miracle, just some extra help.

Appreciate any input...

Thanks

Prohormones are probably the biggest thing going now, but are not your " typical" supplement, and deserve a lot of respect. In otherwords, know what you are putting into your body.

The only effective testosterone booster that I am aware of is Ergopharms 6-oxo. It has been shown to double endogenous testosterone levels.

PHs are exogenous hormones, and don' t seem to be what you are asking about.

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Here goes my recommendations:

1) Whey protein for the day (a casein protein for the night as it breaks down slower)

2) Creatine (I do notice differences in strength when I' m on it; water gain as well)

3) NO2 (we know how much people love to hate it; but it does give you a pump and I feel hyped when I go into the gym.. and I' m motivated to push bigger weights).

Pro-Hormones do deserve a lot of respect and you would do well to educate yourself and ask questions before just jumping in. If you look at the forum homepage, you will notice we' ve added a forum just for Pro-Hormones and we have an expert, by the name of Twin Peak, who browses that forum on a regular basis. I highly recommend that if you want to explore the PH route, you ask questions first before running off to GNC and buying stuff.

Marc C. David
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I somewhat agree with Marc. This is what I would recommend though:

1.) Protein (a mixed protein of whey, casein, and egg). Also, if you choose to take a whey protein, never take more then 25g of protein per serving... your body will not be able to absorb more then 25g and you will be wasting your money.

2.) Glutamine powder. Glutamine is cheap and works very well. Do some searches on this supplement and you' ll see it is definitely a must have.

3.) Creatine. Don' t take pills or liquids... stick to the powders. I recommend V12 by SAN. V12 is a great creatine that also contains an NO2 type supplement within it (as mentioned by MDA). I am currently taking V12 and am very happy with what I have seen so far.

- Kris

Oh crap.. you mentioned Glutamine.. TP is gonna be on this thread!

Is a 50/50 mixture necessary?.

Whey for the day.. as it will utilize quickly and since you' ll be eating anyway, your nitrogen balance will be positive. Casein type at night for the slower break-down.

I' ve heard that whey has such a high BV (biological value) that it does tend not to be as efficient and some can go to waste. I think most whey type protein powders are in the 20-25g range.

Agree on the Creatine pills or liquids. Crap. Scam.

Marc C. David
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ORIGINAL: Kris
1.) Protein (a mixed protein of whey, casein, and egg). Also, if you choose to take a whey protein, never take more then 25g of protein per serving... your body will not be able to absorb more then 25g and you will be wasting your money.

Really? And this only happens with whey? I' d like to know why/how this occurs?

Personally, I think different proteins are beneficial for different uses (whey post workout, casien pre-bedtime).

2.) Glutamine powder. Glutamine is cheap and works very well. Do some searches on this supplement and you' ll see it is definitely a must have.

This is open for serious debate. Why is it a must have? What effects will it have? When and how much should be taken?

I will contend that except in a few very limited circumstances, it is almost useless, and is very expensive.

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2.) Glutamine powder. Glutamine is cheap and works very well. Do some searches on this supplement and you' ll see it is definitely a must have.

Only by companies who sell the product, and those who train who can' t distinguish gains from other environments and attribute it to the glutamine.

Really? And this only happens with whey? I' d like to know why/how this occurs?

Personally, I think different proteins are beneficial for different uses (whey post workout, casein pre-bedtime).

When considering what type of protein supplement to use, remember that whey absorbs rapidly and other proteins like casein and egg albumin absorb more slowly. That' s why I believe a blended protein is ideal in most cases. The whey assimilates rapidly when you need it post-workout and the casein and egg proteins absorb more slowly - " time-released" - (as they are sometimes hyped) which prevents your body from using muscle tissue as a protein source between meals.

Should a whey supplement powder being added among your supplements? definitely! but if you are on a budget and have to choose between blended or whey, choose the blended.

This is open for serious debate. Why is it a must have? What effects will it have? When and how much should be taken?

I will contend that except in a few very limited circumstances, it is almost useless, and is very expensive.

First I' ll tackle the expensive part. Where are you getting this information from? You can purchase 1000g of glutamine for around $48. Now if you consider the optimal dosing of glutamine to be 10g per day (5g pre workout and 5g post workout), then you will get 200 servings for $48. That' s only $0.48 per day... or better yet, $0.24 per serving. Expensive? It' s one of the cheapest on the market. Say we compare products your company produces:

Gel #3: sells for $29.99. Lasts 18-36 days. Lets say you go 36 days... this costs $0.83 per application if you use the gel minimally. If you go 18 days it costs $1.67

PH Gel sells for $39.99. Again it lasts for 18-36 days. At 36 days it costs $1.11. At 18 days it costs $2.22 per application.

If you compare the cost per serving for most supplements you will see that glutamine is one of the cheapest on the market. So by saying it is " very expensive," I could say that avantlabs products are " ridiculously expensive." This would hold true for most supplements on the market. Even protein and creatine usually costs more per servings then glutamine (unless you are speaking of creatine monohydrate... which costs literally pennies per serving).

1. What does it do and what scientific studies give evidence to support glutamine?

Glutamine is highly in demand throughout the body. It is used in the gut and immune system extensively to maintain optimal performance. 60% of free-form amino acids floating in skeletal muscles is L-glutamine. L-glutamine plays a very important role in protein metabolism, and it appears to be a very important nutrient for body builders. When supplemented, it may help body builders reduce the amount of muscle deterioration that occurs because other tissues that need glutamine will not rob the glutamine stored in the muscle cells.

Research shows that after intensely working out, glutamine levels in the body are reduced by as much as 50%. Since the body relies on glutamine as cellular fuel for the immune system, scientific studies have shown that glutamine supplementation can minimize the breakdown of muscle tissue and improve protein metabolism. Its effects on replenishing the body after stress or trauma have been shown in Europe where it is commonly given to patients in hospitals. Glutamine' s cell-volumizing effects have also been shown in several studies. No conclusive studies have been done to evaluate the effects of L-glutamine supplementation on weight-training adults; however, a recent study showed up to a 400% increase in growth-hormone levels when as little as 2 grams of free-form L-glutamine supplement was consumed!

2.) What else can glutamine be used for?

L-Glutamine supplementation is " closer to the heart" of the low carb dieter! That is, it' s ability to relieve symptoms of craving. L-Glutamine appears to act on the brain directly to naturally suppress and relieve cravings. " Glutamic acid, with the help of vitamin B6 and manganese, is also a precursor of gaba (gamma-aminobutyric acid), an important neurotransmitter in the central nervous system. Glutamic acid helps transport potassium into the spinal fluid and is itself an excitatory neurotransmitter. (gaba, however, is inhibitory.) Glutamic acid thus has been used in the treatment of fatigue, parkinsonism, schizophrenia, mental retardation, muscular dystrophy, and alcoholism. Supplemented as L-Glutamine, it penetrates the blood-brain barrier and can be used as a brain fuel. Research has shown that L-Glutamine, in a dose of 500 mg. four times daily, decreases the craving for alcohol. This amino acid is now commonly used in alcoholism clinics. L-Glutamine also seems to reduce the craving for sugar and carbohydrates and so may be helpful for some people in dealing with obesity or sugar abuse. It may also help in the healing of ulcers." 3

So we see that L-Glutamine is extremely useful in fighting cravings, especially those related to carbohydrate and sugar! This is a major reason to consider L-Glutamine if you are burdened with uncontrollable desire for carbohydrates. In one study, on a college campus, two groups of students were allowed free access to vending machines with high sugar foods. One group was given L-Glutamine while the other was given a placebo. The placebo group consumed four times as much sweets as the L-Glutamine group.

L-Glutamine has been used, with great success in fighting other types of cravings and addictions. In a controlled study a group of Alcoholics were supplemented with L-Glutamine without their knowledge (L-Glutamine is odorless.) A reduction in alcohol consumption was seen in 77% of the cases.

Hopefully you will find this information useful. Glutamine is beneficial for many reasons. Do you absolutely need glutamine? No, of course not. But I do consider it a " must have!" When I say that, I mean that if you can afford Glutamine, you should be taking it. I am open to a discussion on why you believe Glutamine is " useless." While I can understand someone saying " It' s not worth the money" ... you can' t simply say " glutamine is useless." Show us some studies that have proven it does nothing. Give us some real world examples that prove it' s a bunch of BS.

Only by companies who sell the product, and those who train who can' t distinguish gains from other environments and attribute it to the glutamine. - by Robboe

You are only somewhat correct. You will not take glutamine and 2 weeks later say " I contribute the 5 lbs of muscle i' ve gained to supplementing with glutamine." If you say that... well... best of luck to you and your future of supplementation.

I believe that supplements are just that... supplements. They are to be taken to supplement your normal diet and exercise to help you reach your goals more quickly. 95% of my gains I credit to proper nutrition. If you don' t eat right, you won' t see the gains you were hoping for.

- Kris

In one study, on a college campus, two groups of students were allowed free access to vending machines with high sugar foods. One group was given L-Glutamine while the other was given a placebo. The placebo group consumed four times as much sweets as the L-Glutamine group.

Which group were you in?[sm=tongue.gif]

Marc C. David
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I would like to add I am not attacking Avantlabs. I am simply trying to point on the pricing per serving with products you are familar with (I could have used many other products for my example). I beleive that your products are competatively priced. Not overpriced but not cheap. I do consider Glutamine to be a low priced supplement.

- Kris

Which group were you in?

I was in the study on alchohol consumption.

They found if they took the lime out of my corona I wouldn' t drink it. They also found that lite beers are for sissy' s during this study.

- Kris

Well thought out, well reasoned response. If I may:

ORIGINAL: Kris
When considering what type of protein supplement to use, remember that whey absorbs rapidly and other proteins like casein and egg albumin absorb more slowly. That' s why I believe a blended protein is ideal in most cases. The whey assimilates rapidly when you need it post-workout and the casein and egg proteins absorb more slowly - " time-released" - (as they are sometimes hyped) which prevents your body from using muscle tissue as a protein source between meals.

Should a whey supplement powder being added among your supplements? definitely! but if you are on a budget and have to choose between blended or whey, choose the blended.

Casien is the most expensive protein there is, with whey being half the price.

When you say " whey absorbs quickly" this is true. The time released thing is a misnomer, as amino levels from whey stay elevated for at least 4 hours. So, assuming you are eating this frequently, which most are, then its irrelavant, except before bed.

No comment on the 25g limitation?

ORIGINAL: Kris
First I' ll tackle the expensive part. Where are you getting this information from? You can purchase 1000g of glutamine for around $48. Now if you consider the optimal dosing of glutamine to be 10g per day (5g pre workout and 5g post workout), then you will get 200 servings for $48. That' s only $0.48 per day... or better yet, $0.24 per serving. Expensive? It' s one of the cheapest on the market.

Most people who recommend glut recommend it at 20 grams daily or more. $1 daily, IMO, is expensive for gains you cannot quantify. Still at .50 cents daily, what gains can you expect, say over the course of a year?

ORIGINAL: Kris
Say we compare products your company produces:

Gel #3: sells for $29.99. Lasts 18-36 days. Lets say you go 36 days... this costs $0.83 per application if you use the gel minimally. If you go 18 days it costs $1.67

PH Gel sells for $39.99. Again it lasts for 18-36 days. At 36 days it costs $1.11. At 18 days it costs $2.22 per application.

No offense, but do you know what these products are for?

ORIGINAL: Kris
If you compare the cost per serving for most supplements you will see that glutamine is one of the cheapest on the market. So by saying it is " very expensive," I could say that avantlabs products are " ridiculously expensive." This would hold true for most supplements on the market. Even protein and creatine usually costs more per servings then glutamine (unless you are speaking of creatine monohydrate... which costs literally pennies per serving).

When I say it is expensive, I am talking about in relation to what you get from it. Personally, I have seen ZERO results from very high dosing at extended periods. Many others say the same. Its context. You can only compare price if you compare what the product does.

ORIGINAL: Kris
1. What does it do and what scientific studies give evidence to support glutamine?

Glutamine is highly in demand throughout the body. It is used in the gut and immune system extensively to maintain optimal performance. 60% of free-form amino acids floating in skeletal muscles is L-glutamine. L-glutamine plays a very important role in protein metabolism, and it appears to be a very important nutrient for body builders. When supplemented, it may help body builders reduce the amount of muscle deterioration that occurs because other tissues that need glutamine will not rob the glutamine stored in the muscle cells.

Research shows that after intensely working out, glutamine levels in the body are reduced by as much as 50%. Since the body relies on glutamine as cellular fuel for the immune system, scientific studies have shown that glutamine supplementation can minimize the breakdown of muscle tissue and improve protein metabolism. Its effects on replenishing the body after stress or trauma have been shown in Europe where it is commonly given to patients in hospitals. Glutamine' s cell-volumizing effects have also been shown in several studies. No conclusive studies have been done to evaluate the effects of L-glutamine supplementation on weight-training adults; however, a recent study showed up to a 400% increase in growth-hormone levels when as little as 2 grams of free-form L-glutamine supplement was consumed!

Again well reasoned. The first decent response I have seen from a glutamine proponent, and for that I applaud you. Nonetheless, as you point out, there is no evidence to show that glut supplementation has any anabolic or body composition effect on weighlifting trainers. If real world effect told a different story I' d not argue. But I know many, many people who, like me have received no benefit from glutamine.

ORIGINAL: Kris
2.) What else can glutamine be used for?

L-Glutamine supplementation is " closer to the heart" of the low carb dieter! That is, it' s ability to relieve symptoms of craving. L-Glutamine appears to act on the brain directly to naturally suppress and relieve cravings. " Glutamic acid, with the help of vitamin B6 and manganese, is also a precursor of gaba (gamma-aminobutyric acid), an important neurotransmitter in the central nervous system. Glutamic acid helps transport potassium into the spinal fluid and is itself an excitatory neurotransmitter. (gaba, however, is inhibitory.) Glutamic acid thus has been used in the treatment of fatigue, parkinsonism, schizophrenia, mental retardation, muscular dystrophy, and alcoholism. Supplemented as L-Glutamine, it penetrates the blood-brain barrier and can be used as a brain fuel. Research has shown that L-Glutamine, in a dose of 500 mg. four times daily, decreases the craving for alcohol. This amino acid is now commonly used in alcoholism clinics. L-Glutamine also seems to reduce the craving for sugar and carbohydrates and so may be helpful for some people in dealing with obesity or sugar abuse. It may also help in the healing of ulcers." 3

It can also keep you out of ketosis, if you are on a ketogenic diet. The rest of this is irrelavant to me, and bodybuilding in general.

ORIGINAL: Kris

ORIGINAL: Kris
Hopefully you will find this information useful. Glutamine is beneficial for many reasons. Do you absolutely need glutamine? No, of course not. But I do consider it a " must have!" When I say that, I mean that if you can afford Glutamine, you should be taking it. I am open to a discussion on why you believe Glutamine is " useless." While I can understand someone saying " It' s not worth the money" ... you can' t simply say " glutamine is useless." Show us some studies that have proven it does nothing. Give us some real world examples that prove it' s a bunch of BS.

I have tried it, on several occassions, with ranging doses, with zero effect. With regard to scientific evidence, you cannot ask that I prove that which does not exist. That is not how science works.

Nontheless, I do appreciate this post.

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I didn' t take it that way.

Again, I think the comparison is out of context, unless and until you compare what they do. Real world effects.

Almost every Avant product you can literally see the effect in a short period of time.

And no, Avant is not a low-end, low priced company. Our products (the few we have, for now) however, have no competition as they are innovative, and/or lead the pack in terms of real world feedback.

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Most people who recommend glut recommend it at 20 grams daily or more.

Where are these people and why are they wasting their money? I have never read of a study showing that more then 10g a day is beneficial. Consuming more then 10g a day has been proven to still be safe, but you would be wasting your money. Your comment comes back to what you can afford. I personally can afford to supplement with Glutamine and therefore choose to do so. It will cost me about $110 per year (to my best estimate) to supplement with 8-10 g per day. Is this worth the gains for most people? Probably not. But again, I can afford it and if it helps my body maintain my current muscle while helping me fight of carbohydrates, I' ll take it. Again, glutamine is not the most important supplement to be taking, but I consider it a must have... just my opinion.

No offense, but do you know what these products are for?

No offense taken. I do, I have a packet full of information on my desk. Your website currently does not contain enough information on those products though. The average consumer would have no idea of what you are selling. But this is besides the point, I made that comment only to show that glutamine is cheap compared to other products. Glutamine is nothing like what avantlabs carry. But the cost per serving is much less. We could argue on and on about what product would yield better results (even cps (cost per serving)). But I have not yet tried one of avantlabs products so I can not vouch for its effectiveness.

When I say it is expensive, I am talking about in relation to what you get from it. Personally, I have seen ZERO results from very high dosing at extended periods. Many others say the same. Its context. You can only compare price if you compare what the product does.

I understand. Many of the people I recommend glutamine to are not satisfied with their results. You need to understand what glutamine does. Glutamine will not help you grow new muscle and become stronger. So if you take glutamine and don' t notice those results... then don' t blame glutamine. Glutamine will, however, help you maintain your current muscle tissue.

I agree that you can only compare prices if you compare what the product does. I was unaware that you were referring to glutamine as expensive meaning results per cost per serving. In that case then yes, glutamine can be viewed as more expensive. Creatine may have a higher cps, but you will notice more results from each serving then by taking glutamine.... but wait. Most Creatine supplements on the market contain glutamine (2-5g) per serving. Same goes with protein supplements and meal replacements. I ask this question then. If glutamine is so un-important... then why do companies put glutamine in their products and not even advertise it has glutamine in it (except on the product label)?

Some examples of creatine products that contain glutamine on the label but not advertised as containing glutamine:

Creatine Xtreme by Champion Nutrition (500mg)
CreActive by MRM (5g)
Creavescent by GEN (2g)

So if glutamine is useless, then why are these companies adding it to their products? 99.9% of companies out there make products to make money. If it costs them money to add glutamine and doesn' t have any effect, then doesn' t it make sense for them not to include glutamine in their products (and thereby increase their profit margins)? That' s something to think about.

Again well reasoned. The first decent response I have seen from a glutamine proponent, and for that I applaud you. Nonetheless, as you point out, there is no evidence to show that glut supplementation has any anabolic or body composition effect on weighlifting trainers. If real world effect told a different story I' d not argue. But I know many, many people who, like me have received no benefit from glutamine.

Thank you. I mentioned that because it is a fact. There have been no studies I have read of to this date about glutamine and bodybuilding. But there have been studies on glutamine and working out. I agree that many people have said they received no benefit from supplementing with glutamine. I have to argue though, these people usually expect results from products. They want to feel something and see something within weeks. Glutamine does nothing like that. It' s different from creatine and ephedra type supplements. You can' t feel that your on it (and therefore many people say it does nothing). It does work though. For me it helps maintain my current muscle I' ve worked so hard for and it also helps fight carb cravings. Do I see results because of it? Nope. But I wonder if I didn' t take it, would my physique be different? I believe it would!

I have tried it, on several occasions, with ranging doses, with zero effect. With regard to scientific evidence, you cannot ask that I prove that which does not exist. That is not how science works.

Really? I disagree. Not every study is done to prove if something works. There are plenty of counter studies out there. Look at creatine for example. When that became a big deal there were literally hundreds of studies published about how creatine was useless. Things like " a 6 ounce steak has more creatine then your body can absorb. So supplementing with creatine is therefor useless."

" Prove which does not exist?" I' m not asking for that. I' m asking for a reference to a study that proves glutamine is useless for bodybuilding. Prove what you are saying. Back it up with some facts.

If I sit here and ramble off 5 reasons how glutamine is effective and you say it' s not... then who wins that discussion? explain why it is not. Get into the chemistry of glutamine and how it reacts with the body. Give me some examples of how it is not beneficial for bodybuilding. Basically, prove to me that it is useless... don' t just tell me it is. (if you say this can' t be done, then explain why in a previous post you explained why hGH supplements could not work).

- Kris

ORIGINAL: Kris

Most people who recommend glut recommend it at 20 grams daily or more.

Where are these people and why are they wasting their money?

Unfortunately, they are all over the internet.

ORIGINAL: Kris
I personally can afford to supplement with Glutamine and therefore choose to do so. It will cost me about $110 per year (to my best estimate) to supplement with 8-10 g per day. Is this worth the gains for most people? Probably not. But again, I can afford it and if it helps my body maintain my current muscle while helping me fight of carbohydrates, I' ll take it.

What is affordable, is relative. In other words, if you take it in lieu of something else, that is more effective/productive and don' t take the latter, for financial reasons, than it is not affordable.

For exmaple, fish oil is proven to be far more effective at body composition (i.e. reducing fat while retaining muscle) at high doses, and a better value.

ORIGINAL: Kris
Again, glutamine is not the most important supplement to be taking, but I consider it a must have... just my opinion.

Its the " must have" part that we differ on.

ORIGINAL: Kris
No offense taken. I do, I have a packet full of information on my desk. Your website currently does not contain enough information on those products though. The average consumer would have no idea of what you are selling.

These are not products for the " average consumer" as I assume you use the phrase.

ORIGINAL: Kris
I understand. Many of the people I recommend glutamine to are not satisfied with their results. You need to understand what glutamine does. Glutamine will not help you grow new muscle and become stronger. So if you take glutamine and don' t notice those results... then don' t blame glutamine. Glutamine will, however, help you maintain your current muscle tissue.

You talk a lot about maintaining. Which in general I do not understand. If you meant in the context of a hypocaloric state, that I would understand. But you never mention dieting anywhere. Why are you so concerned about losing muscle?

ORIGINAL: Kris
I agree that you can only compare prices if you compare what the product does. I was unaware that you were referring to glutamine as expensive meaning results per cost per serving. In that case then yes, glutamine can be viewed as more expensive.

This is all I have meant. Expensive in relation to results yielded.

BTW, creatine, in raw form, is typically cheaper than glutamine. It is the ridiculously prices " delivery systems" that make it expensive.

ORIGINAL: Kris
but wait. Most Creatine supplements on the market contain glutamine (2-5g) per serving. Same goes with protein supplements and meal replacements. I ask this question then. If glutamine is so un-important... then why do companies put glutamine in their products and not even advertise it has glutamine in it (except on the product label)?

You know better than to make this argument. Companies do irrational non-profit maximizing things all the time. That is why we have Chapter 11.

I can also turn this around on you. If glut was so good, why DON' T they advertise it?

ORIGINAL: Kris
Some examples of creatine products that contain glutamine on the label but not advertised as containing glutamine:

Creatine Xtreme by Champion Nutrition (500mg)
CreActive by MRM (5g)
Creavescent by GEN (2g)

Not exactly leading brands.

ORIGINAL: Kris
So if glutamine is useless, then why are these companies adding it to their products? 99.9% of companies out there make products to make money. If it costs them money to add glutamine and doesn' t have any effect, then doesn' t it make sense for them not to include glutamine in their products (and thereby increase their profit margins)? That' s something to think about.

Aside from my comments above, someone once made the claim that there is a synergistic effect between the two. Whether the company actually believes this is true, if the market believes it, couldn' t a rational profit-maximizing compant use this to its advantage?

ORIGINAL: Kris
I agree that many people have said they received no benefit from supplementing with glutamine. I have to argue though, these people usually expect results from products. They want to feel something and see something within weeks. Glutamine does nothing like that. It' s different from creatine and ephedra type supplements. You can' t feel that your on it (and therefore many people say it does nothing). It does work though.

I have used it for sufficiently long periods, at sufficiently high doses, and believe it has had no effect on bady composition whatsoever. Of course, I can say the same thing about creatine, as I am a non-responder there too.

ORIGINAL: Kris
Do I see results because of it? Nope. But I wonder if I didn' t take it, would my physique be different? I believe it would!

What gives you this belief? Have you compared results to similar cycles where training and caloric intake was comparable? I have tried nearly every workout plan, and nearly every diet. I am not bragging just pointing out that I have a basis of comparison. Do you? I am not challenging just asking, as you may very well.

ORIGINAL: Kris
Not every study is done to prove if something works.

Yes, of course studies show that something does or does not work under a given condition. Regardless, something is not disproved under specific conditions and then extrapolated on, or at least it is not done in the scientific community (as opposed to the marketing community).

ORIGINAL: Kris
There are plenty of counter studies out there. Look at creatine for example. When that became a big deal there were literally hundreds of studies published about how creatine was useless. Things like " a 6 ounce steak has more creatine then your body can absorb. So supplementing with creatine is therefor useless."

That isn' t a study, that is an illogical extrapolation.

ORIGINAL: Kris
" Prove which does not exist?" I' m not asking for that. I' m asking for a reference to a study that proves glutamine is useless for bodybuilding. Prove what you are saying. Back it up with some facts.

Again, this is not how it works. Just because you can show that in certain conditions glut has certain effects does not mean that it is anabolic, and therefore someone would need to disprove this. How do I know? Example, you cited the study that showed elevated GH levels. If that was true, then SHOULDN' T we see hypertrophy and fat loss concommittently? We SHOULD -- but we don' t, you agree to this above. So how can I explain with certainly how this works? I can' t. I can only guess, that either the GH response is so short lived that it has no effect. There could be a thousand other reasons as well.

ORIGINAL: Kris
If I sit here and ramble off 5 reasons how glutamine is effective and you say it' s not... then who wins that discussion? explain why it is not. Get into the chemistry of glutamine and how it reacts with the body. Give me some examples of how it is not beneficial for bodybuilding. Basically, prove to me that it is useless... don' t just tell me it is. (if you say this can' t be done, then explain why in a previous post you explained why hGH supplements could not work).

Using previous posts against me eh? Not fair. Though this is quite a different animal.

Bottom line is I don' t " know" why it doesn' t work effectively. It could be that glut is not very orally active. It could be that when tested its used in a different format. It could be that in normal individuals, plenty of glutamine is produced by the body (it is not an EAA). It could be that in normal individuals, plenty of glutamine is contained in food and traditional protein supplements.

Again, it could be any number of reasons. I do know:

(1) No evidence links glutamine to hypertrophy.

(2) Real world feedback is not overwhelming such that I am convinced absent scientific evidence.

(3) Personal use, on various occassion, establishes that for me, glut is not worth the money.

BTW, I do not pay for supplements (any) and I still do not supplement with glutamine. Wouldn' t a muscle maximizing bodybuilder use a free product that was even minimally helpful. :)

Just having fun, which, by the way, this exchange has been.

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