RE: T-Bomb, nordiol, or mag-10?
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RE: T-Bomb, nordiol, or mag-10? - 10/22/2003 3:31:17 PM
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Twin Peak
Posts: 1515
Joined: 5/9/2003
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The problem is, you are seriously misapplying logic.
Don't worry though, you are in good company. You use a common logical fallacy many fall trap to. The don't even teach you about this fallacy until 10th grade math.
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(in reply to TreeTrunks)
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RE: T-Bomb, nordiol, or mag-10? - 10/22/2003 5:11:33 PM
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TreeTrunks
Posts: 115
Joined: 9/30/2003
Status: offline
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mda, i put an "=" for the sake that i'm lazy. You obviously failed to read my posts. I said a CORRELATION. I never said test. was the sole reason behind it but rather there is an obvious CORRELATION. Its what I believe, if you all believe you all are right, then prove me wrong. Making smartass comments, twin peaks, does not go about provign me wrong, it just degenerates the thread.
Effect of pharmacological agents on male reproduction.
Chowdhury AR.
PIP: The main groups of drugs that affect male libido, potency, sperm production, structure and function are summarized and their mechanisms described when known. About 15% of the 200 most commonly prescribed drugs can have adverse effects on male reproduction. Sedatives, tranquilizers, hypnotics, antiandrogens and the common antihypertensive methyldopa can depress libido. Spironoacetone has been reported to impair libido, potency, sperm count and motility, although reversibly. The phenothiazines and tricyclic antidepressants may induce prolactin secretion and consequent gynecomastia. Narcotics and hallucinogens influence male sexual performance. Morphine and methadone decrease LH and testosterone, and increase prolactin. Cannabis, hashish and marijuana initially increase libido and potency, but chronic use causes sexual inversion. Chronic alcoholism also may upset testosterone metabolism, causing testicular atrophy. Cyclophosphamide, used for nephrotic syndrome, and nitrofurans, used as food preservatives, cause direct damage to seminiferous tubules. Synthetic oganochlorine pesticides, especially DDT, have also been reported to damage spermatogenic cells directly, when injected in mice. Steroids such as ACTH, hydrocortisone and dexamethasone may inhibit steroidogenesis in animals.
Anabolic-androgenic steroids and related substances.
Yesalis CE, Bahrke MS.
Pennsylvania State University, 114 Henderson Building, University Park, PA 16802, USA. cey2@psu.edu
Testosterone is the primary male sex hormone, and anabolic-androgenic steroids are synthetic derivatives of testosterone. Anabolic steroids are used to enhance athletic performance and appearance. Adverse effects include those on the liver, serum lipids, psyche/behavior, and the reproductive system. Androstenedione is an anabolic-androgenic steroid used to increase blood testosterone levels for the purposes of increasing strength, lean body mass, and sexual performance. However, there is no research indicating androstenedione or its related compounds, significantly increases strength and/or lean body mass by increasing testosterone levels. The long-term health effects of prolonged androstenedione supplementation are unknown. Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a weak androgen also used to elevate testosterone levels. DHEA is also advertised as an antiobesity and antiaging supplement capable of improving libido, vitality, and immunity levels. However, research demonstrates that DHEA supplementation does not increase serum testosterone concentrations or increase strength in men, and it may have virilizing effects on women.
Nadjafi-Triebsch C, Huell M, Burki D, Rohr UD.
MD Gyn/Ob and Consultant in Womens' Health, Basle, Switzerland. chris.nadjafi@quintiles.com
Two case reports of men suffering from excessive fatigue and depression are presented, both treated with 50 or 25 mg DHEA per day over a period of 1 year. Under DHEA treatment one subject reported being less tired and the other experienced improved well-being without depressive episodes and an increase in libido. Investigations of sex hormone parameters in plasma before and under treatment revealed a decrease of testosterone and an increase of progesterone in both, possibly dose-dependent to DHEA application. It is hypothesised that the increase of progesterone is parallel to an increase of its metabolite allopregnanolone (which was not determined), that might explain the improvement in well-being. The increase of progesterone under DHEA supplementation in males should receive further attention.
Lejeune H, Dechaud H, Pugeat M.
Departement de Medecine de la Reproduction, Hopital E. Herriot & INSERM-INRA U418, Hopital Debrousse, Lyon.
With age, some men develop symptoms resembling hypogonadism. Several cross-sectional and longitudinal studies have shown a decrease in testosterone levels with ageing in men. This finding has equally been observed in elderly men in good health. Testosterone levels decline progressively as of the thirties, at a rate which remains constant throughout life. While total testosterone levels decrease, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels on the contrary increase with age, with the result that the levels of free and non-SHBG-bound testosterone (corresponding to the fraction which is bioavailable to target cells) decrease more abruptly than that of total testosterone. Higher LH levels, decreased testosterone response to hCG and less Leydig cells all indicate that ageing induces partial testicular failure. However, the gonadotropic function is also affected in ageing. The hypothalamus-pituitary becomes more sensitive to gonad steroid feedback, LH pulse amplitude decreases, and the LH response to GnRH is blunted compared to the situation in young men. Thus LH level is not a valid index of androgen deficiency in elderly males. None of the androgen-dependent functions (libido, erection, sense of well-being, muscle mass and strength, fat mass, bone mass, erythropoiesis, etc.) are under exclusively androgen control, and there is no elderly male symptom which is completely specific to androgen deficiency. Thus, in elderly men, when clinical symptoms might indicate androgen deficiency, biological confirmation is needed. An assay which is independent of SHBG fluctuations is mandatory. Bioavailable testosterone assay by ammonium sulfate precipitation seems to us to be the optimum method for diagnosing androgen deficiency: it gives a reliable measurement for the testosterone fraction available to target cells, is adapted to clinical practice, and provides results that can be directly compared with current reference values for healthy young men.
*sigh*
*waits for contrary scientic info.*
< Message edited by TreeTrunks -- 10/22/2003 5:20:02 PM >
(in reply to Misanthropy)
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RE: T-Bomb, nordiol, or mag-10? - 10/22/2003 5:21:08 PM
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TreeTrunks
Posts: 115
Joined: 9/30/2003
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Misanthropy
They may have an indirect association with each other but i dont think they have a correlation. There isnt a reciprocal relationship here. Lots of men have normal test levels and low libido due to many different reasons. The comparison is like apples and oranges, even though they are still fruits.
Please provide the sources to where you found this. I would be interested to know. As would everyone else.
(in reply to Misanthropy)
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RE: T-Bomb, nordiol, or mag-10? - 10/23/2003 3:51:00 AM
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Kris
Posts: 501
Joined: 4/5/2003
From: South Bay - California
Status: offline
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quote:
Some of us.. like Kris and Supremefresh are still experiening this stage. We should ask them.
Damn you MDA! I need to start reading more threads so I can find your attacks on me. Luckily you have "The Cheat" as your avatar and I can easily scroll through threads looking for him.
In regards to this thread:
increased libido ?= increased testosterone
I was being lazy so I used ?=. For those of you who don't do any sort of programing, "?=" is the same as "not equal to".
Is there a correlation? No. Saying that increased libido = increased testosterone has a correlation is an incorrect statement. If I eat Chinese food 5 times and feel fine but 1 time I eat it I get sick, does that mean that eat chinese food and getting sick have a correlation? Of course not. I can get sick eating chicken, hamburgers, ice cream, anything.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TreeTrunks
Increased libido=increased test.
I agree with the Twin on this one. This is a baseless statement.
quote:
Original: TreeTrunks
I refer you to this thread, http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/1%2Dtestosterone/m_5035/tm.htm
No libido, no test. hmmmmm i'd say correlation is for causation.
Hmmm... so you point us to a thread where you and your buddy make comments about test and libido? That thread doesn't prove anything about testoserone being correlated with libido.
quote:
Original: TreeTrunks
Anyways, show me a study showing where a person with a low libido had high test. levels. I've even read where doctors administer test. injections for women to increase there libidos. And what about young boys goign through puberty? Remember puberty? Show me that study and i'll believe you. Until then logic must be applied.
I've got an idea. Instead of writing about what you beleive and telling us to find studies, why don't you show us some studies that testosterone and libido have a possitive correlation. I read your studies you posted... but not one of them mentioned a correlation between test and libido.
You keep claiming that you are using logic. Have you taken a phylosophy course in college? Do you know how stupid logic can be (not making an attack on you... just on logic). Here is a true statement using logic:
MDA likes to eat 3500 calories a day
The more calories you eat the more muscle you can gain
Therefore if MDA ate more then 3500 calories a day he would gain more muscle
The above statement is true if we use logic... but in reality it is untrue... MDA would look like the cheat... fat.
quote:
Original: TreeTrunks
I don't see how one can affect the weather simply by eating ice cream. Irrelavant. Although, personally, i Like 'If I sleep in a garage, does that make me a car?'
Yes... using logic you would be a car 
TreeTrunks sleeps in a garage
Cars sleep in garages
Therefore TreeTrunks is a car.
That statement is true if we use logic. So the question is... what type of car would you be? I personally would be a monster truck... but that's my personal preference.
quote:
Original: TreeTrunks
Its what I believe, if you all believe you all are right, then prove me wrong. Making smartass comments, twin peaks, does not go about provign me wrong, it just degenerates the thread.
Ok... you are right and all of us our wrong... err not. Why do we ALL have to prove you wrong? Why don't you prove us wrong. Since we all know that test has no correlation with libido, you need to prove to us there is a correlation. You made the statement and didn't back it up... so back it up and we'll give you some space.
And about the smartass comments... they were made... and you made them too. So in essenence you "degenerated" this thread yourself as well.
This forum is a place where everyone can get together and get their facts straight. Posting that libido = testosterone has a correlation without backing that up sends misleading information to our members. Posting that libido = testosterone has a correlation while asking us to find studies that prove otherwise is called being lazy. Like I said, we shouldn't (and I won't) take my time to find studies that "prove you wrong." You made the statement, you need to prove us wrong. You need to show us some studies that show a possitive correlation.
< Message edited by Kris -- 10/23/2003 4:14:36 AM >
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(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: T-Bomb, nordiol, or mag-10? - 10/23/2003 11:29:38 AM
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Misanthropy
Posts: 1473
Joined: 10/13/2003
From: Los Banos, CA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TreeTrunks
Please provide the sources to where you found this. I would be interested to know. As would everyone else.
I dont think it is really necessary to provide sources, just asking your doctor should be a good "source".
I feel that a low test will equal a low libido, but a low libido wont directly change your test levels. Low test could happen in many different ways. If your taking prohormones, steroids or getting synthetic test, then your body will not produce it since it is provided elsewhere. Also if there is something wrong with some part of the functionality with the brain and/or testies. Provided that all the bodily functionality is working properly and your not getting test elsewhere, then test production should be healthy and normal.
Low libido can be caused from many different areas like kris pointed out. Stress, depression, fatigue can greatly effect the libido since it is more psychological than physiological.
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