RE: Loose change - 9/11
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 12:27:10 PM
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Nm0ney34
Posts: 820
Joined: 11/19/2006
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Hi there,
Thanks for posting in the thread I made. Please refrain from bashing/trolling people who question the governments obviously so well thought out storys to certain actions. Your entitled to your own oppinions as well as everyone else. I swear people refuse to be spoonfeed and want awnsers to certain questions and everyone starts spewing venom.
This Shadow of a doubt guy is going about this thread like a reasonable human being, besides his lack of paragraphs. Why cant you?
Dude your better than that post why even make that comment.
Chris - I think he was refering to this thread, scrolling through this threads pages, he knew you would try to counter his arguement...and if he is seriously into bodybuilding or not does not really matter...
quote:
ORIGINAL: jheft
There's a certain personality type that's absolutely impervious to reason. They will latch on to these sorts of conspiracy theories either out of sheer paranoia, or to explain away their own ineptitude at managing their own lives. The larger and grander and more impossible the conspiracy, the tighter they'll cling to it. It isn't possible to carry on a real conversation with this kind of person.
_____________________________
www.Nikdesigns.com
(in reply to jheft)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 12:54:30 PM
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jheft
Posts: 3020
Joined: 1/3/2007
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I'm not suggesting that anyone be spoon-fed information -- I'm suggesting exactly the opposite. Many are all to eager to accept stuff in a video like this without even engaging in a cursory examination of the information presented (which would be plenty to debunk most of the claims). Critical examination of the facts is exactly the kind of thing I want to see more of. Shadow of a doubt brings the opposite.
I'm gonna call bullshit when I see it. Shadow of a doubt is just your average, run-of-the-mill conspiracy crank. He's brought no new, relevant facts to this thread; he's just made rants.
_____________________________
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"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world."
-- Kaiser Wilhelm II
(in reply to chrisshepherd)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 1:09:41 PM
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Nm0ney34
Posts: 820
Joined: 11/19/2006
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There are arguements for both sides.
He did bring up some interesting points. As did some of you, which is why I made this thread in the first place. I watched the video, it re-sparked my interest in what had happened so I wanted to see what other people thought.
I just wish that this could have gone on a little more civalized.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jheft
I'm not suggesting that anyone be spoon-fed information -- I'm suggesting exactly the opposite. Many are all to eager to accept stuff in a video like this without even engaging in a cursory examination of the information presented (which would be plenty to debunk most of the claims). Critical examination of the facts is exactly the kind of thing I want to see more of. Shadow of a doubt brings the opposite.
I'm gonna call bullshit when I see it. Shadow of a doubt is just your average, run-of-the-mill conspiracy crank. He's brought no new, relevant facts to this thread; he's just made rants.
_____________________________
www.Nikdesigns.com
(in reply to jheft)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 1:55:12 PM
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jheft
Posts: 3020
Joined: 1/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Isaac Asimov
"When people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When
people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you
think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking
the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put
together."
_____________________________
Journal: Jheft's Heftorium, Progress Photos (new as of 2008-03-08), My Stack
Current stats: 5'11", 196.0 lbs - starting cut
2008 Results: +22.8 lbs, 2nd Place Discussbodybuilding.com Transformation Contest
"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world."
-- Kaiser Wilhelm II
(in reply to Nm0ney34)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 3:06:18 PM
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_Virtuoso_
Posts: 1486
Joined: 10/4/2006
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Chris why are people who believe it was a plot by the goverment retarded? It's simply personal opinion in what you choose to believe with very little fact from either side. Your posts in this thread are beyond ignorant.
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(in reply to jheft)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 6:57:38 PM
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shadow of a doubt
Posts: 20
Joined: 4/30/2008
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Thanks Nm0ney34 for creating this thread to discuss the subject. No Sweat..I will try and use proper paragraph form going forward..
On that note, I didn't want to be pulled into childish character attacks, yet they seem to have found me. That is quite alright, I knew what I would be getting myself into the second I posted. People may or may not agree with the points that I made in my previous two posts, all that I asked in conclusion was to do a little research about the world we live in and the events that take place. Chris and Jheft both based their arguements against me by already closing the door on free thought by trying to discredit me through crassless character attacks. By the way Chris and Jheft, I am college educated, working on my MBA, have a full time job, have my own house, and lift/train 5 days a week...all while having 'hours' devoted to fill my mind with knowledge, or looking over news paper clippings piecing things together in my parents basement with no job, as you would call it. Chris and Jheft, with your combined 4400+ posts on this site alone, might make you eat your own words. That is my only shot at the both of you.
You can call me an average, run of the mill conspiracy crank, wacko, rant artist all day. Which I find strange, since I began my post stating there is no such thing as conspiracy theories, only how one side can twist the facts. But perhaps if you take off the rose colored lenses and view the world and government policies from a different view point, you could open your mind to realize the truth about the world you live in. People seem to only characterize events in history as how they effect oneself. I thought I was being more than open and polite about my personal views of the September 11th through the research I have conducted, but it seems that sometimes people just do not want to hear a different view point. Remember, history will be written;as it always has, by those who win. Nevermind the means and costs of 'winning.'
Jheft, please help me with the critical examination of the following quote from Paul Wolfowitz, written with the help of his former student Lewis Libby. I assume you know both of these men and their role in foreign policy matters. Speaking on the subject of the Military Industrial Complex:
The foreign strategy of the US must be "unapologetic, idealistic, assertive and well funded. America must not only be the world's policeman or its sheriff, it must be its beacon and guide Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power. These regions include Western Europe, East Asia, the territory of the former Soviet Union, and Southwest Asia There are three additional aspects to this objective: First the U.S must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests. Second, in the non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and economic order. Finally, we must maintain the mechanisms for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role."
Lastly, please think before attack. You give the people who enjoy intellectual stimulation and bodybuilding/training a bad wrap, thus making us look like your typical meathead.
Go Red Wings!
(in reply to _Virtuoso_)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 7:37:13 PM
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mr. 209
Posts: 950
Joined: 5/20/2007
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i just want to know, what makes you think they would tell the truth? i find it weird that for the past 60+ years america's wars have profited large business owners, while the other 99% of the population is getting ****ed over with taxes, wars, loss of constitutional rights...i dont think theres any way to budge the way you guys view things so ill just save myself some time and stop now.
heres a quote just for thought:
"it is no question that we will eventually have a one world government,
the question is, will it be by consent or conquer"
think about that next time youre filing taxes, and stuffing the pockets of the rich with your hard earned money.
_____________________________
Age: 17
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new maxes since shoulder injury(new maxes at end of may):
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheSilverFox
please don't share your boner with me
(in reply to shadow of a doubt)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 8:00:12 PM
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jheft
Posts: 3020
Joined: 1/3/2007
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The motivations of the neoconservative crowd are well known. However, ideological ambitions don't automatically come supplied with the ability to carry out those ambitions, nor are those ambitions evidence of anything other than ambition.
By way of analogy, I'd love to sleep with Alyson Hannigan. That doesn't mean that it's ever going to happen, nor do my ambitions to tap that represent any kind of evidence that I have done so in the past.
If there is any attribute that more completely saturates the Bush administration than corruption, it's incompetence. Everything they've ever touched has turned to ****. Yet somehow we are to believe that the same people who can't manage to cover up any of their million other scandals, who couldn't keep the wraps on Abu Ghirab, who couldn't conceal their efforts to wiretap Americans without warrants, who are reviled by 70+% of the public, who can't find their ass with both hands, who can hardly trot out the president for a press conference without him drooling on himself, somehow managed to cover up a convoluted conspiracy to commit mass murder on American soil.
This sort of conspiracy would require the silence of the thousands of people that would have been involved. Not just a cabal of shadowy figures at the top, but hundreds of (low paid) airline workers and security personnel, hundreds of rescue workers, firemen, police officers, medical personnel, survivors of the attack, every lawmaker on capitol hill and all of their staff. I'm sorry, but I'm gonna need a lot more before I can accuse them all of accessory to mass murder.
So, that's why I call it paranoid and stupid. Because that's what it is. To any thinking person, it's preposterous.
_____________________________
Journal: Jheft's Heftorium, Progress Photos (new as of 2008-03-08), My Stack
Current stats: 5'11", 196.0 lbs - starting cut
2008 Results: +22.8 lbs, 2nd Place Discussbodybuilding.com Transformation Contest
"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world."
-- Kaiser Wilhelm II
(in reply to shadow of a doubt)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 8:03:12 PM
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shadow of a doubt
Posts: 20
Joined: 4/30/2008
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Mr. 209 - Read your post before I watch the Wings go the the WCF. Not sure if anyone else enjoys hockey, but my Wild and Leafs are out so it's Detroilet. I agree with you on the fact that they will never tell you the truth. The power structure is far too valuable and far too extensive at this point. The point though, is to get the message out; the power structure can be dissolved with constant pressure. You are correct on another point as well that I personally feel is overshadowed way too often. There is absolutely no law on the books that states that a citizen of the 50 states must pay income tax. Yet there are private entities such as the IRS and Federal Reserve that will gladely tell you how much they need from you. Oh, and if you don't want to pay us, well then let us pressure you first and then fine you ultimately. How about an extended stay on the top bunk at the work house sound? There are many government programs that work well and need to be funded. But privitization of services that governments can and should do, who can be regulated without loop holes, is something that sickens me to death. Well at least more and more people are waking from their slumber...
(in reply to mr. 209)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 8:17:31 PM
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shadow of a doubt
Posts: 20
Joined: 4/30/2008
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Jheft - could you believe that incompetence is what they would like you to believe, since it's far easier to explain 'well we're all stupid'? that fact of the matter still holds true, WTC collapse or not, that the plans for what we are doing were written up during the late 80's and all we needed was a false flag operation to gain support from the american public to do it. The governments interests do not lie with the people or the land. The official 9/11 commission can be best used to wipe my ass. Look at the overall large scale of things, not just one action. Frankly, I get exhausted when people say 'oh, they are all just incompetent.' Yes, incompetent people rig elections twice, create signing statements to cover themselves and their partners in crime, create foreign policy that is unjust and dispicible. I don't buy it. Propaganda explains much of your 4th paragraph by the way.
(in reply to jheft)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/1/2008 8:36:38 PM
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jheft
Posts: 3020
Joined: 1/3/2007
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So you explain away the implausibility of the size of the conspiracy by expanding the size to include everyone in the media? Very clever.
And the same people you allege "rigged" two elections couldn't manage to do a little rigging to forestall colossal losses in 2006?
The perfect bogeyman the neocons always wanted was Saddam Hussein. If they were going to construct this elaborate plot for a false flag operation, as you suggest, don't you think they could have done a much better job of actually pinning it on him?
Again, just because someone has the motivation to do something, that in no way qualifies as evidence that they actually did it.
The fact is, the pentagon makes all kinds of contingency plans for all sorts of hypothetical military operations. It's their job to be prepared for all sorts of eventualities. I'm not saying they're particularly good at it, as is obvious from the current boondoggle, but that's what they do. They probably have plans draw up for invading Canada.
_____________________________
Journal: Jheft's Heftorium, Progress Photos (new as of 2008-03-08), My Stack
Current stats: 5'11", 196.0 lbs - starting cut
2008 Results: +22.8 lbs, 2nd Place Discussbodybuilding.com Transformation Contest
"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world."
-- Kaiser Wilhelm II
(in reply to shadow of a doubt)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/2/2008 5:38:47 AM
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Yet
Posts: 5108
Joined: 3/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jheft
So you explain away the implausibility of the size of the conspiracy by expanding the size to include everyone in the media? Very clever.
And the same people you allege "rigged" two elections couldn't manage to do a little rigging to forestall colossal losses in 2006?
The perfect bogeyman the neocons always wanted was Saddam Hussein. If they were going to construct this elaborate plot for a false flag operation, as you suggest, don't you think they could have done a much better job of actually pinning it on him?
Again, just because someone has the motivation to do something, that in no way qualifies as evidence that they actually did it.
The fact is, the pentagon makes all kinds of contingency plans for all sorts of hypothetical military operations. It's their job to be prepared for all sorts of eventualities. I'm not saying they're particularly good at it, as is obvious from the current boondoggle, but that's what they do. They probably have plans draw up for invading Canada.
Indeed they do.
_____________________________
President of the Emancipation Detoxification. DBB's oldest forum group, punching baby seals since 2/12/08.
I have found the truth; nobody hides their identity from ED.
quote:
ORIGINAL: coldfire
Alright, you got me. I am Steven Hawking, and bodybuilding is my new hobby. I am sick of physics. I wish I could train, and not just read about others training.
Quote of the Month:
quote:
ORIGINAL: twistedlink
In reality all of us here are playing out this scenario just different goals, we put our bodies through god awful time spent working out and eating to a near perfect point for years to MAYBE reach a goal.
(in reply to jheft)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/2/2008 6:21:47 AM
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shadow of a doubt
Posts: 20
Joined: 4/30/2008
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The real smoking gun which has never been explained from our government is the collapse of WTC building #7. There is footage live from September 11th coming from BBC News on this issue. I'm sure you can find this on YouTube as well. Unsure if it is even in the Loose Change doc. WTC#7 was never hit by a jetliner nor was it even remotely on fire. Standing still, untouched, just collapses much in the same way the 'demolition style' collapsing of the two that were struck by jetliners. Figure out who the owners of the WTC buildings are, Silverstein I believe, and their motives for bringing down antoher building that had nothing to do with the 'attacks.' There's documentation that a restructuring of the insurance policies on all WTC building's went into place days before. Sounds like an explination is needed. What offices and government agencies were located in #7? What were they trying to destroy, information that would never be found.
These aren't crazy conspiracies. These are real questions that require real explanations.
(in reply to Yet)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/2/2008 6:50:13 AM
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Rodbuster
Posts: 27
Joined: 3/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chrisshepherd
Steel weakens alot before it melts. And how do you know about this certain type of smoke and dust?
I also question how one could know the dynamics of a jetliner crashing into a structural building. It's not exactly something that happens every day and can be studied with any level of accuracy.
quote:
If both jets had hit the empire state building, it probably wouldn't have fallen. It was built using supports and pillars spaced evenly throughout the building. Meaning that the supports are going to be in the way on every floor but its stronger. The outside walls have no load. The building does not rely on the outside to support it like WTC did. If both planes hit the building and it did somehow fall, it would not pancake as there are so many pillars it would topple over. But because the WTC was built without these pillars it made it prone to the type of pancake collapse that happened.
A plane had infact crashed into the empire state building, though not the size of a jetliner, and it's still standing. The WTC is built from structural steel, while the empire state building is built from reinforced concrete. When it comes to strength, reinforced concrete wins hands down. In the trade, we call these pillars columns, and with the compression strength of concrete, a jetline would more likely crumple as if it had hit the side of a mountain.
What it comes down to is that this conspiracy has no scientifically verifiable evidences to support its claims. If we were to imagine that the 9/11 conspiracy was a scientific theory, then all it would take is one statement to be in error to topple the entire claim.
_____________________________
Age: 28
Height: 5'8
Weight: April 2007 - 135
Currently 152
Suppliments
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(in reply to chrisshepherd)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/2/2008 6:52:47 AM
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TheSilverFox
Posts: 1330
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twistedlink
quote:
By way of analogy, I'd love to sleep with Alyson Hannigan. That doesn't mean that it's ever going to happen, nor do my ambitions to tap that represent any kind of evidence that I have done so in the past.
Yeah im on this list too  
hells yea. alyson hannigan = feisty crazy redheaded nympho haha
_____________________________
--J
24 yrs old (currently bulking and using HST)
December 2007 181 lbs.
Current weight : 202.4 lbs
32 in" waist
10.5% body fat - Jan 2008
Current BF : 13%
16.5 in' bicep
305 lb. max bench (in Jan. 08)
300 lb. max bench (on April 15th, 2008)
200 lb. Barbell Overhead press 1 rep max (April 2008)
Deadlift max = 275 lbs (april 15, 2008)
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max squat = I don't know.. injured myself
Supplements
Sweet Potato Smoothie daily
Musclemilk - cytogainer (gots to get ma' carbs)
Whey protein smoothie in the A.M. (peanut butter, milk, whey, oatmeal = yum)
Fish oil, vit. c, multivitamin
Working out is 90% mental... 10% physical
It's not quantity, it's quality.
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/2/2008 6:58:05 AM
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shadow of a doubt
Posts: 20
Joined: 4/30/2008
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i agree silverfox, once you've had a gorgeous redhead, it doesn't get much better than that..
(in reply to TheSilverFox)
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RE: Loose change - 9/11 - 5/2/2008 7:14:54 AM
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Rodbuster
Posts: 27
Joined: 3/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _Virtuoso_
Chris why are people who believe it was a plot by the goverment retarded? It's simply personal opinion in what you choose to believe with very little fact from either side. Your posts in this thread are beyond ignorant.
Belief is a dangerous, dare I say disease that we humans all too often succumb to. Belief is quite irrelivent when the facts are presented with quantifiable evidences. One could just as easily say that they believe in pink unicorns, and it would sound just as silly with no evidence to support their claim.
As far as conspiracy theories are concerned, humans often look for patterns or connections to things that really aren't connected at all as Chris had previously mentioned. If you can't see past your beliefs, you'll never truely be free of the power of suggestion. There are some fairly intelligent people in this thread that are critical of the facts, and are trying to offer you advice. All I can do is suggest that you listen to what they have to say, instead of clutching onto your unsubstantiated beliefs.
_____________________________
Age: 28
Height: 5'8
Weight: April 2007 - 135
Currently 152
Suppliments
Testing Muscle Asylum Project Anabolic O.D.
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(in reply to _Virtuoso_)
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