Hey guys, I know this is a touchy subject but I've been researching like crazy PHs versus steroids versus staying "natural", and I am just absolutely torn on which route would be best for me.

First off, I'm a 21 year old college student, so getting to the gym isn't something I can really do as often as I'd like (sometimes papers or tests come up out of nowhere and it just makes it difficult to get to the gym...). I am about 6'1" and weigh 160-165lbs... tall and skinny lol. I never really lifted much until I got to college and the reason is that 1) girls say they do not like muscular guys, but girls are crazy and they all like muscles, 2) I was told that lifting weights is really detrimental to drumming, but later found out that it is only detrimental if it is relied upon to improve chops versus putting in the hours of actually practicing on the drums (lifting actually really helped a lot with strength, speed, and stamina), 3) and the last reason is that I was one of the top high jumpers / long jumpers in my state in high school and had to kind of stay trim - I also didn't want to lift much because I didn't want to be sore for competitions.

Now, after I got to college I started focusing more on my classes / my future and less on all that other stuff. I still drum but I don't do track anymore. I am tired of people calling me skinny all the time and I am in fact tired of being skinny. I hardly have any fat at all on my body and I am in good shape (lean mass and a resting heart rate of 48-50 bpm). In the spring of 2003 I started to get pretty serious about lifting weights and went for 3-5 days per week for about 4 months and ended up putting on 10-15lbs of lean muscle mass. I had great results but because of summer classes and work and difficult semesters following, I was unable to maintain a workout schedule. I still lifted when I got a chance but not really like I was in the spring. I was taking a weight gainer (2200 calories per shake and ~50g protein) and creatine everyday / every other day which really helped with the weight gain, even if it was mostly water weight.

I just signed up for a 1 year membership to a local gym and I really want to put on some mass. I think ideally 180-185lbs would be awesome, especially if it is lean mass. A bunch of guys I work with are on or have used steroids and even though I've always thought of steroids as something very bad that I'd never partake in, they seem to love it and none really show any side effects (no hair loss or man boobs, just a little acne really). This one guy in particular is 29 and he took steroids for about 6 months~1 year when he was 21 (he said he was 115lbs, just really skinny... he's about 5'8") and now he is the same height but 165lbs and is really just in fantastic shape. He said he peaked out benching around 300lbs.... amazing! The most I benched ever was 155lbs a couple times... blah.

Anyway, I've been reading up on Prohormones and steroids and side effects don't seem like too much of a concern as there are remedies for pretty much all of them, seemingly. Hair loss is not something that exists in my family so that is not really a worry, plus my hair is pretty thick anyway and my hair line is not receded at all. I am worried about damaging my liver, but milk thistle seems to be the stuff to take. I am also worried about reproductive damage. I don't have kids yet but one day would like to have one (more like 5 lol). Acne is also a concern I guess but it's not supposed to be so bad. I don't want to get too too big (some of these guys are just monsters... but they really lack definition and just look bloated) so I will likely take more modest doses of either the PH or steroid, so side effects should be more on the mild side.

OK, so even when I am working hard and eating right (mostly fish and meat, plus protein shakes and creatine) I only put on 10-15lbs, which still wasn't enough to hit my goal of 180-185. Additionally I wasn't really as strong as I'd like to be either (want to bench at least 225lbs without too much trouble). Steroids or PH seem to be what I am looking for, even if it is only a cycle or two. I know needles aren't condoned because they are illegal for this purpose, but who knows.... Sublingual, topical, and oral applications seem to be the other alternatives which oral or sublingual seems to be the ideal choice for me.

I am just wondering what you guys think of this situation? I know natural is the safest route to go, but I see these guys using this stuff now, and the other guy who used it 8 years ago, and they just look awesome. It is just way too tempting, and even after all my research I just can't decide what to do... Thanks for the help guys.

First off, I'm a 21 year old college student, so getting to the gym isn't something I can really do as often as I'd like

I was unable to maintain a workout schedule.

My advice would be to only use PHs if you can put together a solid consistant training split and a good diet. PHs aren't gonna give you much if your dont' get to the gym enough or you don't eat enough. I'd recommend them if you already have the other things in order and your looking for a boost. If your trying to make up for lack of time in the gym or a poor diet, than it's a bad idea.

if tall and skinny is the absolute best you can do on creatine, amino acids, weight ganners, protein, good diet...

then by all means go ahead.

but if the same is true, you might just want another hobby

I will tell you truthfully that if you have your diet, workout, and rest in order you will get great gains, but it will not be overnight. Steroids are a temporary and dangerous solution. Once you come off, you cannot possible maintain what you have gained. You have also introduced your body to an out of balance condition with far reaching effects. Have you noticed the professional bodybuilders getting triple and quadruple bypass surgeries? Not to say that would happen to you, but do you want to increase your chances of physiological damage. However, if you do things the correct and healthy way, you will continue to improve your health, make strength and size gains, and feel good about yourself year after year after year. Think long term, because that is what a lifestyle change is. If you want to change the way you look, a committment is required. What price are you willing to pay? I find that the natural way is much more of a reward than a price. I have never cared what others think of me, only what I think of myself. I like the guy in the mirror, and he's getting better every day. Life is a journey, not a destination, and you need to enjoy it. Steroids are for people that want an end without caring for the means. Natural bodybuilding is for those that name their own destiny and can appreciate the life going on around them during the journey. Your goal of 180-185 is quite doable with some help from the guys here on this forum. You need to be patient, though. Quick but healthy muscle gain happens at the rate of 1-2 pounds per week. We measure our successes in months rather than weeks. That may seem like a long time, but we can take a break for a while and jump right back in. Have you seen a guy that quit steroids before? The ones I've seen were pathetic. The choice you make now will stick with you for a long time, so you need to think long and hard about what I've told you. I have been down the Prohormone trail and let me tell you that I will never do it again.

Naviator: While I appreciate your desire to discourage our young people from pumping themselves full of sythetic hormones, a lot of what you just said isn't really true.

The number of bodybuilders getting triple and quad bypasses is statistically only slightly higher than the general population. I wish the risks of being a couch potato were exaggerated half as much as the risks from steroids are. The dieuretics that bodybuilders take before competition are actually more stressful to the body.

It's standard practice to bulk up on steroids and then maintain the muscle without them. A lot of "natural" bodybuilders are "natrual" because they haven't used steroids in at least a year. But they didn't get big to start with "naturally". Personally, I think this should disqualify them from "natural" competition, but there's no way to prove if someone used steroids over a year ago or not.

I think the real problem is that we have a lot of teenage boys who have a completely unrealistic expectation of how they should and can look. That same problem exists with adults too, but to a lesser degree. I've noticed that my body ideal has shrunk a lot as I've gotten older, and that's true of a lot of men I know.

Steroids are therapeautic drugs, and when used by a doctor for their intended medical puposes they are quite safe and effective. I mean, if testosterone was so dangerous, then we should all get castrated once we're done having children It's a matter of degree. A low testosterone level can make a man's life miserable.

There are also a lot of people spending a lot of money on supplements that promise "steroid-like results", pro-hormones especially. Everyone is running around doing various stupid and/or risky things to try and look like something that they were never meant to look like. Patience is the biggest thing that young men need. Of all the things I've taken over the years, nothing is as good as just going to the gym consistently. I've discovered that as I age I am actually liking how I look better, I am more filled out, less lanky looking. I think teens should continue to exercie and eat properly, and discover how good they can look and feel over time.

Hey, welcome back, bro. Now I need to argue with you. There is certainly a distinct possibility that you have researched the topic more than I have, but I'm quite sure that while the general population has only a slightly different instance of bypass surgeries I doubt that they are happening in the late thirties and early forties to the same degree.

The "former steroid users" I was speaking of were ones that quit lifting altogether, which I should have specified. I am going from personal experience here, but a person with a natural bodybuilding lifestyle continues to look like a man years after he has quit. The people I have personnally seen that used to juice at the very least look pitiful. The unlucky ones have titties.

I myself have used Methyl One-Test and gained quite a few pounds from it and actually kept some. I am certain that had I quit lifting altogether my gains would have disappeared within a few weeks. In contrast, I have been on a natural program for 3 months now and have enjoyed gains beyond those from the M1-T. I got extremely sick for two weeks and it took only a week to get right back on track. I remember being on 1-AD and losing every ounce of gain from being only slightly sick for a week.

I have zero faith in the medical community, so whatever they prescribe justifies nothing to me. They give you aspirin for Arthritis, for cryin out loud. That's like unplugging the oil light in your car because it keeps coming on. However, if someone needs testosterone treatment because their own supply is low, great. Jacking it up to superhuman levels only to get stronger can in no way be considered beneficial. I'm a big fan of castrating certain men due to their genetic deficiency, but no way do I condone giving somebody the equivalent of ten testacles.

On the other hand, I am in complete agreement with you on the subject of "ideal body perception." That's why they made Barbie's boobies smaller. It goes back to what I said before: You have to love yourself. You need to look in the mirror and happily accept that guy looking back at you. DrumProdigy is 21, so he doesn't suffer the same degree of impatience that the average teen must endure, but I think it's still a problem. Wanting results right here, right now is the kind of thing that keeps us looking in the mirrors and checking the numbers on the scale. Patience and commitment are the keys, not quick-fix pills.

If you are talking about former Mr. O's, I don't believe they are representative of most steriod users. I think they would be mroe in the "OHMYGAWD, you injected HOW MUCH??" category. It's a risk/benefit ratio, and the higher you go, the faster the risk increases.

Anyone who stops working out ends up looking like hell. And so do people who've never worked out. Some people will do a steroid cycle, but lose all their motivation after they stop. It's not the steroids that make them look like hell, it's the lack of working out. But yeah, an overdose of testoerone becomes an overdose of estrogen and you get titties if you overdo it. But I've seen guys with titties from eating too many Little Debbies too

You can take anything the placebo effect will make you lift a little harder and longer. Funny how so few supplements have been tested double-blind. It's because very few can survive such a test.

Saying you don't trust the medical community...hmmm, but you trust supplement peddlers?

GI Joe's arms have gotten much bigger since the 60's. If you blew him up to life size, his arms would have been 13" in the 60's, and 22" today.

Raising your hormone level just magnifies what you're getting out of the gym. I am so sick of kids who expect to be able to take a pill and not work out. It's a symptom of youth, willing to take risks, but not willing to stick with something long term.

Thanks guys. The thing is that even when I do what I am supposed to do the gains aren't happening as quickly as I'd like, and by the time things get going my school schedule changes making it more difficult for me to keep on top of my lifting. Eating right is not a problem and getting to the gym isn't a problem either, but the gains I experience just take soooo long. I am not one to take short cuts and I try my best to make the most informed decisions possible. I wouldn't even considered steroids or PHs if it weren't for all the guys I know who do it. The guy who is 29 and did it when he was 21 said that the side effects are really prominent with those guys who go on high-dose cycles and never stop cycling (the guys with no necks lol). It makes sense to me, but I am still worried about side effects.

I don't compete anymore in athletics (not NCAA anyway) so I don't have to worry about drug tests. I just want an advantage when lifting, even if it is a bit uncouth. Since I am just starting to get back into lifting I figured I'd wait about a month or two to get back into the swing of high-protein diets and lifting 3-5 days per week. I already wrote up my weekly workout schedule so now it's just a matter of getting to the gym and making a habit of it. After the next month or two I should have researched these supplements enough to have a good idea which is best for me or if I should even bother with them at all, and at the same time I will already be locked into a healthy routine to help me get the most out of all that I do.

The guys at work have been on steroids for at least a year or two, and from what I've heard they cycle a LOT. They are really big but none has man boobs, hair loss, and acne isn't much of a problem anyway. I do want to talk to a physician before hand and maybe get a blood test now and then to check up on my liver. I'm 21 so I'm sure my testosterone levels are still pretty high. I finished growing by the time I was 14 (6'1") and have filled out only a little (went from 140lbs @ 14yrs old to 160-165lbs @ 18-21yrs old). The 29 year old guy went through about 6 cycles between 21 and 22 (I think) and he is in really good shape. He still works out and always has, but he went from 115lbs to 165lbs and I'd like to do something similiar to myself. The thing is that I wouldn't substitute steroids or PHs for hard work... They are supposed to SUPPLEMENT an already ideal diet / workout plan.

So after being in the gym for a month or two is when I'd start on one or the other. In the meantime I will continue to research and look into ways of getting big naturally. Here is my schedule:


Mon - Chest, back, abs, running (20 minutes)
Tues - Biceps, triceps, abs
Wed - Shoulders, legs, abs
Thurs - Chest, biceps, triceps, running (20 minutes)
Fri, Sat, Sun - OFF


That is pretty much what I'll be doing but I may change things a little bit. I was just talking to a friend of mine who is going to be a cop soon and I told him about how I was looking into steroids, and he flipped lol. I told him that prohormones are legal and are very similiar to steroids with the main difference being the method in which they are delivered to the body, and the fact they have to be converted into testosterone by the liver enzymes. He was like oh ok that's cool. Then I told him they might not be legal much longer... he said ok then take them now that they are legal after that don't take them. It doesn't make much sense to me because he was complaining about the negative effects of steroids, but PHs are ok because they are legal. I think he is confusing judicial with health (he is a paramedic too). I think PHs are more of what I'd take if I take anything. Steroids really make me nervous but I really do need something more [in addition to] those nasty protein shakes and tuna fish meals. OK so any advice on lifting you can give.... or lifting while taking PH would be cool. Assuming I did go with PHs (probably 4-androstenediol and 1-testosterone) how much would I change my work out schedule, if at all? By taking a few cycles could I really be damaging my body long-term? short term? Gaining weight isn't as important the health of my body. I just get nervous about taking these things because I am not sure if what I am reading is the absolute truth or if it is made to look better than it is. Thanks so much for your help guys, I really appreciate it!

Check out my Optimum Anabolics workout in the Online Journal Section. Consider it as an alternative. You can ask mda1125 about it, too. I think calis is also on it as well.

Just relax, slow down, and be patient. You'll get gains without acne scars on your shoulders, pissing off everyone you know, and growing boobs In the long run it's far more important to have consistent healthy habits than anything else.

The people I know who have done steroid cycles have done them only after lifting consistently for at least a couple of years, and who had reached a tough plateau. Of course, they are all also over 35 and not posessed of the notion that gains happen overnight. They also are pretty conservative about it, short cycles, the safer steroids, and at the lower doses.

I have patience, but I just don't have a lot of time. I can and will still lift, but not as much as I need to in order to put on the weight I want. Even if I see results like I did that one spring, they still weren't quite the results I was looking to see. As crappy as it seems, I really just need that extra boost... and it seems that I should take advantage of this stuff while it's still legal. Then again, who knows where I'll be in two months. Once everything sets into place I may not want or need to take any PHs, but who knows maybe I will be more set on taking them then than i am now... It's just the guy at work says he experienced no side effects. He just did a couple cycles for one year and then that was that. He said he was even skinnier than I am and now he is in awesome shape... he didn't take short cuts though he has always lifted but the steroids helped give him a running start and helped him get where he wanted to be. I am in that same boat with the difference being I haven't lifted in a while. I have patience because I am not really out of shape now... asthetically my body looks fine (the girls say I have a nice body...) but I wish I was a lot stronger than I am and a bit more massy. I have done all the things I am supposed to in the past and lifting now I am doing everything I need to do, but it's just very difficult. Would it be very terrible if I did a few cycles and then stopped (but continued lifting)?

I really just need that extra boost... and it seems that I should take advantage of this stuff while it's still legal.

Steroids are not legal.

Maybe you mean prohormones?

Would it be very terrible if I did a few cycles and then stopped (but continued lifting)?

From the sounds of your goals, wants, the image you want to be quickly...I doubt very much it would be that easy.

If you gained 20 lbs of solid muscle, and were leaner.. it would be hard to just cold turkey quit and go back to working out hard and being happy with 5 lbs of muscle a year.

You might also check out this book. It's called Legal Muscle. I have not read it. It does appear to be quite popular on the Internet though.

Legal Muscle

I have patience, but I just don't have a lot of time.

Er, you have a deadline?

Steroids are NO substitute for not working out enough. They won't work if you aren't pushing yopur body hard enough. So if you don't have time to work out properly, either find more time or lower your expectations, because steroids (and certainly not pro hormones) won't make up the difference.

Why do you doubt these substances (PH and steroids)? Increased testosterone should increase muscle strength and mass regardless of working out just by the nature of the hormone. Eating right, working out 3-5 days per week, getting rest, taking supplements, AND increased testosterone are all pieces of an equation that should yield incredible results. You doubt my ability to put on mass, yet the guy at work was skinnier than me and ended up putting on 50 pounds (don't know if it was all from steroids... he said he gained 10lbs in a month at the time). If he can do it why can't I? Everybody is different, but I could put on the same amount of weight, more weight, or less weight... who knows. I think more personal experiences with either PHs or steroids would be very helpful. You guys seem to be against either of these substances wholeheartedly, but the guys at work are all for them. I am absolutely torn.... I don't know what to do. Thanks for all your help guys I really appreciate it.

While I am on PHs or steroids I will be working out hardcore and doing everything else I need to be doing while on them. Even after I am done I will be working out hardcore but that won't last forever. After I stop with the cycles I'll have about a year before I will likely stop working out altogether, or at least very minimally working out. I will hopefully be going away to medical school in the fall 2006 so I have up until then to work out (my school work load (undergraduate) will only be getting easier and easier so I can work out more and more up until med school).