RE: ok...who thinks we need this
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 6:43:53 AM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twistedlink
...Im in disagreement with veg there though, i dont care much for legal or illegal, i care more about safety, as such, i dont think any tips should be present here on how to take steroids or PH's, especially to teenagers which is definitely over 75% of the entire supplement forum posters.
You're not as far off my position as you think, TL (for the reason I highlighted in your reply). Remember, my two biggest beefs against steroid education are
- Where it runs afoul of laws we all have to abide by.
- The lack of information on how to use them safely.
I don't doubt that you care about safety, and we both know that even the best-prepared information will be abused by people who lack the discernment to apply it responsibly. I think the only area where you and I seem to differ on this is that I believe AAS can be used safely and the much ballyhoo'd side effects can be mitigated or avoided completely, and you don't (or at least seem strongly inclined toward that opinion).
That doesn't gel with your scientific curiosity, my good man.
Driving an automobile is a perfectly legal priveledge for those who can demonstrate some rudimentary handling skills and a grasp of traffic laws. But the fact that teenagers are statistically more likely to act like douchbags and take unnecessary risks (like drag racing) behind the wheel does not mean we should stop teaching drivers ed. It means we should crack down on stupid behavior -or raise the legal age for obtaining a lisence.
Steroids ought to be handled the same way. If they were legal, and information about how to use them safely were freely available, no one should be denied that information. Would kids abuse that information and harm themselves? Of course they would. They binge drink when their parents aren't looking, don't they? The proper course of action is to crack down on underaged drinking -not ban alcohol for those who use it sensibly.
I don't think we'll ever reach a point in our public discourse where AAS can be bought and sold under standard age restrictions like alcohol. But if more doctors would learn to think for themselves, and private industry was allowed to R&D safe steroid applications, we might someday reach a point where doctors aren't afraid to prescribe an AAS regimen for elective reasons. You can walk into any plastic surgeon's office today and buy pec implants, but you can't walk into a doctor's office and say "hook me up with some D-Bol, Doc, I've hit a plateau on bench and I'm still not satisfied with my pecs." Why is this? Because implants aren't illegal. Are they really THAT much safer than AAS? I doubt it. Don't get me started on the laundry list of sh*t that can go wrong on an operating table.
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 6:55:08 AM
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VaughnTrue
Posts: 890
Joined: 2/19/2006
From: NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twistedlink
Oh also, no member here has ANY form of authorisation, or a team of lawyers, if this forum had steroid advice and a kid ended up in hospital, i smell one big fat law-suit, even if the advice is the best out there, it doesnt change the fact that kids are dumb, and can go against it, happens every time, and court cases are made.
Like ive said, im surprised a court case hasnt happened yet.
no one is trying to give advice on illegal steroids that can bare consequences. I am speaking about LEGAL OTC compounds.
If I wanted to speak about illegal compounds, I would try to make a sticky about dianabol, testosterone, tren acetate, and PLENTY more.
However,this is not my desire.
_____________________________
"poena est vires in dissimulo"
Start
Height : 6'
Weight : 258lbs
Waist : 38"
Bicep : 16"
Neck : 20"
Now
Height : 6'
Weight : 200
Waist : 32"
Bicep : 17.25
Neck : 19"
BF% - 7.4%
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 7:03:55 AM
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twistedlink
Posts: 3096
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Haha good post veg you make very good points
vaughn, misjudged the situation, sorry, i thought you meant stuff like dianabol etc, I have nothing against you, im sure youre knowledgable and perfectly capable to do what you wish to do, i just dont think this forum is an appropriate place for it, even if the stuff is legal, youd still need to be careful, if you made a sticky and gave advice and someone turned out for the worst-you could be sued.
Im just saying its not quite as simple as posting it up to save a few teens health, somethings bound to go wrong.
Veg, while your examples above are good, ive come to the realisation that driving, while killing teenagers many times a year, is needed, as in, you cant do much without driving, human beings and society get far with cars, it allows decent travel and trades (with lorries etc) and everyone can get to there jobs etc, very efficient machinery and is efficient for running our society.
AAS' however wont really benefit anyone but people with bodybuilding hobbies or wishes to compete, its not really important lol
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The hopefully only temporary OOB, dont worry i dont bite lol.
(in reply to VaughnTrue)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 8:14:32 AM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TwistedLink
vaughn, misjudged the situation, sorry, i thought you meant stuff like dianabol etc, I have nothing against you, im sure youre knowledgable and perfectly capable to do what you wish to do, i just dont think this forum is an appropriate place for it, even if the stuff is legal, youd still need to be careful, if you made a sticky and gave advice and someone turned out for the worst-you could be sued.
A perfectly sensible argument, and I agree, insomuch as a lot of unqualified advice is bandied about without appropriate disclaimers attached.
Look, any 13-year old can read the supplement board as it's presented today, go out and buy a 10-pound tub of perfectly legal whey protein, chug the whole thing in a single afternoon, piss blood and blow his kidneys right out of his back. My point is, just about any of the advice we give out here (from proper squatting form to how much water to drink per day) can come to bad use by irresponsible people. I'm no lawyer, but I think a person would be hard pressed to hold DBB legally culpable for their own abuse of otherwise sensible information posted here.
JHeft got things rolling with the disclaimer idea -would you be amicable to legal PH info being posted under such conditions? It would have to be stated pretty clearly that the specific PH in question, while legal, can have steroid-like effects, possibly cause you to fail a drug test, and may carry specific health risks. Last (but most importantly, to your point), such a disclaimer would have to state clearly that DBB will not be held liable for the accuracy of the information or injury/damages arising from the improper application of it.
I've already seen language to that effect used in plenty of supplement marketing material -there's no reason it can't apply in this case.
The only other suggestion I have to insist on is that adequate sources are cited to support claims of legality, and what -precisely- that legality entails (OTC but still banned by the IOC or the NFL, etc). Anecdotal claims like "my borther is a cop and he says it's legal" will not cut the mustard.
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 9:45:02 AM
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Yet
Posts: 1157
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This thread is like when Freeza killed Krillen and Goku went Supersayian in Dragonballz.
I don't know why that came to my mind, but it did. I'm all for this, it never hurts to learn.
_____________________________
Official Petition to Reinstate Out Of Bounds.
President of the Emancipation Detoxification. DBB's oldest forum group, punching baby seals since 2/12/08.
I have found the truth; nobody hides their identity from ED.
quote:
ORIGINAL: coldfire
Alright, you got me. I am Steven Hawking, and bodybuilding is my new hobby. I am sick of physics. I wish I could train, and not just read about others training.
Quote of the Month:
quote:
ORIGINAL: twistedlink
**** happens and youre never going to look better than Yet, just deal with it
(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 9:45:42 AM
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toolman4052
Posts: 1875
Joined: 8/12/2006
From: Russellville AR
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quote:
the bolded would be pretty much what vaughns idea is, educate people how to take steroids "safely" sorry but no, that idea is absolutely disgusting, you should not have a sticky here so that 13-14 year olds know how best to take a substance thats gonna **** them up completely, and all the people who are liking this idea are clinging onto PH's for support way too much just because theyre "legal"
I dont really care if theyre legal, no one can deny that the product is still probably most likely dangerous, the PH list from legal-illegal is a big one, every year more get banned and every year more get made, and its just a continuous dumb cycle.
This web forum states clearly it is anti steroid, therefore i dont think any talk of steroids should be on here
Just the same as child porn shouldnt be mentioned here like it has been recently
downloading music personally shouldnt be illegal, it hurts no one, and the companies are charging us out of our asses, $25 for a CD? they cost $0.001 to make, its basically all profit, youre just giving them money for a bit of cheap plastic with sound on it that nowadays required minimal talent because of very "clever" supercomputers enhancing it all.
But thats a different topic, so no more on that.
This site should not have a single topic mentioning steroids, or PH's in my personal opinion-legal or not.
Worse still to actually give advice on how best to take the things.
I agree... few ph's have been around longer than 5 years because they keep getting taken off the market (aka health risks?). But the government picks weird things to make illegal... cigarettes, cigars, alcohol, OTC robitussin (abused by 1 in 10 kids or something like that) are all legal, but supplements that are used for 4-6 week spans once-twice a year are banned...? That is stricly my opinion tho, and may not all be completely true.
But still downloading music is illegal, but like you said, you care more about safety than legality, which is fine I suppose. I personally think we should be able to do whatever we want on our cpus once we buy them and the internet unless it harms another person in any way (hacking, stealing, fraud).
Wow, sorry Vaughn, I've gotten a mile or two off the road here, lol. Maybe you should PM the big man and see if he can come over to this forum and give his opinion and decision....
(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 9:53:58 AM
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VaughnTrue
Posts: 890
Joined: 2/19/2006
From: NY
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veg, Im glad to see you understand where I'm coming from now, but holy hell have you got to do some research man!
There are prohormones/designer steroids sold on EVERY major retailers site and they are absolutely legal. The largest BODYBUILDING dot com website in the world sells dozens upon dozens...many right on the front page.
Dhea is also still quite legal. The fda has been pushing to have it made illegal, however it will never happen as it is a naturally occuring compound found in food source(which is the basis for a compounds legality or not).
There are very few illegal prohormones at the moment...
1ad,4ad, MOHN and maybe a few others...but other than that, they're available everywhere and all legal.
_____________________________
"poena est vires in dissimulo"
Start
Height : 6'
Weight : 258lbs
Waist : 38"
Bicep : 16"
Neck : 20"
Now
Height : 6'
Weight : 200
Waist : 32"
Bicep : 17.25
Neck : 19"
BF% - 7.4%
(in reply to toolman4052)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 11:28:57 AM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: VaughnTrue
veg, Im glad to see you understand where I'm coming from now, but holy hell have you got to do some research man!
There are prohormones/designer steroids sold on EVERY major retailers site and they are absolutely legal. The largest BODYBUILDING dot com website in the world sells dozens upon dozens...many right on the front page.
Dhea is also still quite legal. The fda has been pushing to have it made illegal, however it will never happen as it is a naturally occuring compound found in food source(which is the basis for a compounds legality or not).
There are very few illegal prohormones at the moment...
1ad,4ad, MOHN and maybe a few others...but other than that, they're available everywhere and all legal.
I'm all for that  My whole take on it, however, has been that if it's legal and available OTC, it can't be worth much or very effective.
I'd love to be proven wrong. What with being a discerning adult, free to make my own choices about my supplementation regimen and all 
There just seems to be an Everest-sized pile of bullshit and hype to have to wade through to get to the facts.
(in reply to VaughnTrue)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 1:53:38 PM
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VaughnTrue
Posts: 890
Joined: 2/19/2006
From: NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: veggeep
quote:
ORIGINAL: VaughnTrue
veg, Im glad to see you understand where I'm coming from now, but holy hell have you got to do some research man!
There are prohormones/designer steroids sold on EVERY major retailers site and they are absolutely legal. The largest BODYBUILDING dot com website in the world sells dozens upon dozens...many right on the front page.
Dhea is also still quite legal. The fda has been pushing to have it made illegal, however it will never happen as it is a naturally occuring compound found in food source(which is the basis for a compounds legality or not).
There are very few illegal prohormones at the moment...
1ad,4ad, MOHN and maybe a few others...but other than that, they're available everywhere and all legal.
I'm all for that My whole take on it, however, has been that if it's legal and available OTC, it can't be worth much or very effective.
I'd love to be proven wrong. What with being a discerning adult, free to make my own choices about my supplementation regimen and all
There just seems to be an Everest-sized pile of bullshit and hype to have to wade through to get to the facts.
Agreed.
98% of EVERYTHING available on the market is bull or just a staple IMP(ie: creatine, protein, fishoil, multi)
HOWEVER...the current legal prohormone/designer steroids are some of the strongest orals to EVER be released(yes, I am comparing them to many actual "steroids")
Superdrol is the king of that beast, most users can gain 10-20lbs in 21-30 days. If that isn't STRONG, I don't know what is.
_____________________________
"poena est vires in dissimulo"
Start
Height : 6'
Weight : 258lbs
Waist : 38"
Bicep : 16"
Neck : 20"
Now
Height : 6'
Weight : 200
Waist : 32"
Bicep : 17.25
Neck : 19"
BF% - 7.4%
(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 3:13:31 PM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
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quote:
HOWEVER...the current legal prohormone/designer steroids are some of the strongest orals to EVER be released(yes, I am comparing them to many actual "steroids")
Superdrol is the king of that beast, most users can gain 10-20lbs in 21-30 days. If that isn't STRONG, I don't know what is.
Here's a question... Kris posted back in Jan '06 that his PayPal account was nuked for TOS violations. They claimed the "HGH releasers" Supplements101 was selling met the definition of controlled substances under Schedule I of the Uniform Controlled Substance Act (21 U.S.C. 801 et seq.)
The fact that Supplements101 wasn't -in fact- selling HGH products at all was moot once PayPal made up their sanctimonious minds (I'm guessing they were just plain too lazy to do the research and reinstate his account). But it brings to light an obvious benchmark. I personally have not read Schedule I of the Uniform Controlled Substance Act (21 U.S.C. 801 et seq.), but is it the official, be-all-end-all list of what is illegal to obtain without a prescription? Additionally, what other governing bodies might have a say in these matters?
Like I said, a product -like Superdrol- might not make Schedule I status and therefor be available OTC, but what do natural BB sanctioning federations say about it? I'm sure there have to be thousands of cases of people getting penalized by their league/conference/what-have-you for using perfectly legal substances. If my paycheck depended on passing a steroid panel, I'd damn sure want to know if something I was taking could cost me my livelihood.
Personally, I think a lot of athletes who straight-up are using elicit gear just hide behind that excuse when they get caught (like Bonds -"I didn't know the carb drink my trainer was giving me had PHs in it..." Sure Bonds, go ahead and insult our intelligence some more... what a lying ****.)
[EDIT]
OOOOOOoooo!!! You've gotta be kidding me! I just read schedule I of the UCSA, and the only substances listed in schedule I are opiates and CNS suppresants and stimulants! Where the eff does PayPal get off claiming HGH precursors fit the schedule I criteria??!! Somebody needs to sue their sanctimonious asses! 
< Message edited by veggeep -- 8/2/2007 3:40:41 PM >
(in reply to VaughnTrue)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 3:19:20 PM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
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quote:
Ohhh okay now I see... I just find it funny all the hype about the government looking into your computer this and that and then you order and it gets picked off by customs and they send a letter lol!
It makes sense though since its legal there they really don't want to get into the legalities of it.. I am willing to make a bet they may change that though... I do know of internet shops in the US being busted for the transport of steroids and almost everyone on the order list was taken down with them But there you go again there was no government per say looking into your computer.. They just had a list of order address's credit card information etc.
LoL I remember in jury duty a couple months ago the lawyer goes "Most of that stuff you hear about high tech evidence to crimes, about how we can track DNA to murder scenes etc.. Well its all just media hype we don't have that kind of evidence in most cases. We don't have the funds for all of that for absolutely every person who commits a crime in this country." "Sorry to break it to you people but CSI is fictional"
Just had to throw that out there... But by any means damn I would hate to be caught with some gear by the police.. a felony on the record.. Ouch!
Yeah, but hold on a second there, IBB...
This is post-911 America. This is FISA territory. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but that letter could very well be the kind of "throwing back the little ones" the DEA and Customs wants you to THINK is going on. For all you know, it could be an unspoken "Welcome to our watchlist" letter, know'm sayin'?
(in reply to IBendBarbells)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 4:00:29 PM
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IBendBarbells
Posts: 3685
Joined: 6/21/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: veggeep
quote:
Ohhh okay now I see... I just find it funny all the hype about the government looking into your computer this and that and then you order and it gets picked off by customs and they send a letter lol!
It makes sense though since its legal there they really don't want to get into the legalities of it.. I am willing to make a bet they may change that though... I do know of internet shops in the US being busted for the transport of steroids and almost everyone on the order list was taken down with them But there you go again there was no government per say looking into your computer.. They just had a list of order address's credit card information etc.
LoL I remember in jury duty a couple months ago the lawyer goes "Most of that stuff you hear about high tech evidence to crimes, about how we can track DNA to murder scenes etc.. Well its all just media hype we don't have that kind of evidence in most cases. We don't have the funds for all of that for absolutely every person who commits a crime in this country." "Sorry to break it to you people but CSI is fictional"
Just had to throw that out there... But by any means damn I would hate to be caught with some gear by the police.. a felony on the record.. Ouch!
Yeah, but hold on a second there, IBB...
This is post-911 America. This is FISA territory. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but that letter could very well be the kind of "throwing back the little ones" the DEA and Customs wants you to THINK is going on. For all you know, it could be an unspoken "Welcome to our watchlist" letter, know'm sayin'?
Good Post bro.. Never thought about that before... But then like you said the little guys.. They probably tend to look for the guys who order mass amounts.. They never send mass amounts in one package its always broken up. Their are deals for buying more too and selling on the black market. Those are generally the guys who get watched and caught..
_____________________________
--Ninja spy of the Emancipation Detoxification.--
"Man.. It feels good when alot of losers are around. "
Every man has his strong points.
In a party full of average fish the sharks really stand out.
With the way things are going Ill be 240 by March 2010
Short term goal - 215lbs 10% BF
New Scale weight - coming soon.
(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 4:01:25 PM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
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Okay... I'm starting to look like Link with the consecutive posts, but the further I dig into this Uniform Controlled Substances Act gibberish, the more I learn that I never knew before... Check out this little gem, apropos to the subject at hand:
According to section 405, subsection a:
A person may not knowingly or intentionally deliver, or possess with intent to deliver, a noncontrolled substance representing it to be a controlled substance.
...
This section is based on Annotated Code of Maryland Article 27, § 286B. Some States are more expansive, e.g., Wisconsin Statutes Section 161.41(2m), which prohibits the manufacture of an imitation controlled substance in lieu of a controlled substance, while others include "prima facie" factors to be considered evidence of delivery of "look-alikes," such as prior convictions, evasive tactics, and proximity to controlled substances, as well as immunity for using imitation controlled substances as placebos, e.g., North Dakota Century Code Chapter 19-03.2. Factors that may be useful in determining whether this section is violated include whether the physical appearance is substantially identical to that of a controlled substance, whether the noncontrolled substance was packaged in a manner normally used for the illegal distribution of controlled substances, and whether delivery included an exchange of money or property substantially greater than the reasonable value of the noncontrolled substance.
So in other words, you can go to jail for marketing a legal product as a steroid, even if it isn't one. Kinda begs the question: How do supplement manufacturers get away with hyping their products as "steroids" if they know they can get thrown in the pokey for it?
(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 4:14:42 PM
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IBendBarbells
Posts: 3685
Joined: 6/21/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: veggeep
Okay... I'm starting to look like Link with the consecutive posts, but the further I dig into this Uniform Controlled Substances Act gibberish, the more I learn that I never knew before... Check out this little gem, apropos to the subject at hand:
According to section 405, subsection a:
A person may not knowingly or intentionally deliver, or possess with intent to deliver, a noncontrolled substance representing it to be a controlled substance.
...
This section is based on Annotated Code of Maryland Article 27, § 286B. Some States are more expansive, e.g., Wisconsin Statutes Section 161.41(2m), which prohibits the manufacture of an imitation controlled substance in lieu of a controlled substance, while others include "prima facie" factors to be considered evidence of delivery of "look-alikes," such as prior convictions, evasive tactics, and proximity to controlled substances, as well as immunity for using imitation controlled substances as placebos, e.g., North Dakota Century Code Chapter 19-03.2. Factors that may be useful in determining whether this section is violated include whether the physical appearance is substantially identical to that of a controlled substance, whether the noncontrolled substance was packaged in a manner normally used for the illegal distribution of controlled substances, and whether delivery included an exchange of money or property substantially greater than the reasonable value of the noncontrolled substance.
So in other words, you can go to jail for marketing a legal product as a steroid, even if it isn't one. Kinda begs the question: How do supplement manufacturers get away with hyping their products as "steroids" if they know they can get thrown in the pokey for it?
NO WAY! your right Veg! how the hell do they get away with it!
Maybe thats why they use the name D-bol Or Winny etc.. maybe its because they are not actually using the drug name it self and its not even close to the same chemical.
_____________________________
--Ninja spy of the Emancipation Detoxification.--
"Man.. It feels good when alot of losers are around. "
Every man has his strong points.
In a party full of average fish the sharks really stand out.
With the way things are going Ill be 240 by March 2010
Short term goal - 215lbs 10% BF
New Scale weight - coming soon.
(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 5:20:55 PM
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VaughnTrue
Posts: 890
Joined: 2/19/2006
From: NY
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they get away with it with a simple word manipulation
"Get huge just LIKE you're on steroids"
"The next best thing to steroids"
"Legal steroids!"
No company that I know of flat out states "This IS steroids".
veg, as far as superdrol and other hormonal products being banned by certain organizations, yes there are PLENTY that ban these compounds. That is why it is up to each and every individual to know the rules/regulations of contest before one enters.
I highly doubt if you were on 1 gram of Test e/50mg dbol/600mg boldenone per week you would fail a drug work test...let alone being on superdrol/halodrol/phera
Steroid testing is incredibly expensive and not always the most accurate thing, so 99.9% of tests do not include it.
_____________________________
"poena est vires in dissimulo"
Start
Height : 6'
Weight : 258lbs
Waist : 38"
Bicep : 16"
Neck : 20"
Now
Height : 6'
Weight : 200
Waist : 32"
Bicep : 17.25
Neck : 19"
BF% - 7.4%
(in reply to IBendBarbells)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/2/2007 11:35:53 PM
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toolman4052
Posts: 1875
Joined: 8/12/2006
From: Russellville AR
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quote:
ORIGINAL : veggeep
Naw, dude. That wasn't sarcasm -I meant that.  I'm of the opinion that we could find safe ways to use AAS in sports if it weren't for the laws barring them, but it's a lot harder to unmake a law than it is to find willing private interests to do that kind of research. Frankly, I think our government overreaches on a LOT of areas in our personal lives like this -you might say that makes me a bit of a libertarian toward drug laws. If I'm not hurting anybody else, the government has no business telling me what needle I can stick in my body. But that is the kind of paternalistic government we have, and that's not going to change anytime soon.
Oh, ok, suweet man. I like your views on the drug laws. Cigarettes are legal (and obviously have many health risks), so why make prohormones (also unhealthy but used WAAAAYYY less often) illegal? Plus, people who want to take them (most) actually care about their health/body enough to do something about it. What do cigarettes benefit? They definitely don't increase LBM or lower bf%, ya know? lol. And I agree, as long as the person isn't harming anyone or making HUGE distractions, I think our "free" country should be free, but hey, what do I know, I'm 19! haha.
Vaughn, have you PM'd mark yet?
(in reply to VaughnTrue)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/3/2007 3:38:43 AM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
Status: offline
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Werd! Kick-ass new avatar, bro!
(in reply to toolman4052)
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Not that it really matters it will still be easily obtained from other countries where it is legal just like anabolics. This is what I don't understand.. its a felony to have anabolics right? But when customs confiscates a package all they do is send you a letter... Nothing else comes of it.. Why is that? I mean shouldn't they do something about the shipping of illegal drugs from one country to another? would that not be considered smuggling ? Anyways it isn't and I know that for a fact as well as a couple members here.