RE: ok...who thinks we need this
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 11:08:11 AM
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odw777
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quote:
ORIGINAL: toolman4052
Yeah, but the fact is that these are legal products. Whether or not they're necessary or not isn't the point. People can buy them at their local supp shop, and they will, and we may as well educate them on the subject...
Yeah I agree. Besides you can't just brush all ph talk under the rug. For one this forum is going to lose credibility. Secondly, where do you draw the line between legal phs and other products on the market?
An ai coumpound might have some anabolic properties and be more effective then say a prostanazol clone. So we can't talk about it? It's a slippery slope trying to censor all products that we think should be illegal but really aren't.
And the whole "all natural" bodybuilding idea is pretty debatable too. Like it or not steroids are on the market right now, and they'll be a part of bodybuilding until something drastic happens.
(in reply to toolman4052)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 11:45:54 AM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jheft
You're right, my analogy is bogus. I should have recognized that myself when I ended my post with "sex is a healthy, natural part of human behavior and steroids... aren't."
I didn't say "Bogus". I said "not apt". Because how you ended your post is not how you couched the analogy:
quote:
Comprehensive sex education... doesn't increase risky sexual [sic], and abstinence-only sex-ed doesn't stop kids from having sex. I doubt steroids is any different. So, I'm of the attitude that if they don't learn correct information in a structured way, they're going to learn the wrong info on "the street"
You seem to be suggesting, with this analogy, that the point of providing proper steroid education is to prevent people from getting bogus info on the street, and that doing so won't increase or encourage steroid use. Whether or not sex is natural and steroids are not does not add any relevant weight to the comparison. It lends a modicum of icing to those who need their proverbial decision-making cake adorned with good reasons not to use the "they'll do it anyway" justification. That is, it's an artful flourish, but not germane to the legal/illegal issue.
It's the same argument public health workers have been using in their promotion of needle exchange programs. People are going to use dirty needles and spread HIV if we don't ply them with clean wares with which to continue breaking the law. Sorry, but tough titties. If someone doesn't want to get AIDS from a dirty needle, they should consider kicking their illegal habit.
I think we all generally agree that as long as we're not encouraging illegal behavior, we should embrace the challenge of sorting the facts from the B.S. reagrding Prohormones. At the very least, debate will subject these substances to healthy scrutiny, and we can let the market decide their fate. Just like it has with hundreds of snake oil scams before them.
Perhaps we can start by tossing up a list of substances (in this thread?) we want to review/research. And for sake of not chasing our tails over brand formulations, we should stick to discussing the active ingredients? My experience with supplement dabates reveals that all supplement efficacy arguments can be broken down into two basic questions:
- Does the active ingredient do what it claims?
- Does XYZ brand make the best use of that active ingredient?
Where we routinely devolve into bickering is on question 2 (Usually because manufacturers go out of their way to conflate the research implicit in question number 1 with their own advertizing claims -and then pack their ad copy chock full of proprietary, nonensical terms to bamboozle people into taking their word for it).
(in reply to jheft)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 11:49:39 AM
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veggeep
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quote:
Comparing steroids or PH to heroine is just irresponsible. The two have nothing in common and your fear and mis-information approach was done in the 80's and it failed miserably.
Excuse me, they have one thing EMINENTLY in common: They are both ILLEGAL.
I was not comparing the health risks of steroids to the health risks of taking heroine. I was comparing the legality. That is niether irresponsible nor "fear and mis-information".
< Message edited by veggeep -- 8/1/2007 11:54:28 AM >
(in reply to JeffKing)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 12:10:17 PM
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jheft
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You seem to have caught me disagreeing with myself, at the very least. My original post could have been better thought out.
Now that you mention needle exchange programs, I'm really confused. I'm going to have to sit down and figure out what I think about all these issues now, because I generally thing needle exchange programs are a good idea.
quote:
If someone doesn't want to get AIDS from a dirty needle, they should consider kicking their illegal habit.
Easier said than done! Have you ever seen a junkie in need of a fix? Steroids are not addictive in the way heroin is.
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(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 1:49:17 PM
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04blackmax
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Stop comparing steroids to heroin. Heroin is well known as being one of the most deadly drugs known to man. Some of the major differences which make the two nowhere near the same
- Heroin is a Narcotic (The term narcotic (ναρκωτικός) is believed to have been coined by Galen to refer to agents that benumb or deaden, causing loss of feeling or paralysis)
- Extremely high rate of addiction
- Terrible withdrawl symptoms starting from within 6 to 24 hours of discontinuation of sustained use of the drug
Now try to tell me these are the same things
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(in reply to jheft)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 2:14:34 PM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 04blackmax
Stop comparing steroids to heroin. Heroin is well known as being one of the most deadly drugs known to man. Some of the major differences which make the two nowhere near the same
- Heroin is a Narcotic (The term narcotic (ναρκωτικός) is believed to have been coined by Galen to refer to agents that benumb or deaden, causing loss of feeling or paralysis)
- Extremely high rate of addiction
- Terrible withdrawl symptoms starting from within 6 to 24 hours of discontinuation of sustained use of the drug
Now try to tell me these are the same things
For the last time,
I AM NOT COMPARING STEROIDS TO HEROINE!
Go back and read what I just wrote about that before you start putting words in my mouth please.
And anyone in here who really wants to try and excuse one manner of illegal behavior more than another on the basis that one is less addictive, less destructive, less expensive, has fewer withdrawal symptoms, or leaves you with better breath than another, please save it for the pot-head forums where people give a sh1t about rationalizing illegal behavior.
< Message edited by veggeep -- 8/1/2007 2:17:15 PM >
(in reply to 04blackmax)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 2:18:55 PM
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JeffKing
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quote:
ORIGINAL: veggeep
quote:
Comparing steroids or PH to heroine is just irresponsible. The two have nothing in common and your fear and mis-information approach was done in the 80's and it failed miserably.
Excuse me, they have one thing EMINENTLY in common: They are both ILLEGAL.
I was not comparing the health risks of steroids to the health risks of taking heroine. I was comparing the legality. That is niether irresponsible nor "fear and mis-information".
Wrong again. One is illegal the other is a prescription drug used legally every day by thousands of people. One is legally used in medicine to heal people the other is a opioid used to get high that is sold on the black market.
Again you post mis-information.
< Message edited by JeffKing -- 8/1/2007 2:21:52 PM >
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(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 2:57:18 PM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
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quote:
Wrong again. One is illegal the other is a prescription drug used legally every day by thousands of people. One is legally used in medicine to heal people the other is a opioid used to get high that is sold on the black market.
Again you post mis-information.
...and again you demonstrate your own ignorance, Jeff.
Go buy some steroids without a prescription right now for use in your bodybuilding regimen if they're so legal. When you have them, call the police in your jurisdiction and tell them you have possession of a controlled substance without a prescription. Let me know how far you get with that.
I can't believe I even have to point that out to you. Jesus Christ.
< Message edited by veggeep -- 8/1/2007 3:02:45 PM >
(in reply to JeffKing)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 3:00:36 PM
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twistedlink
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er, dont mean to piss on anyones bonfire here, but i do believe morphene is a prescribed heroin based (or pretty much just refined heroin) drug
I also believe steroids are also prescribed too for medical afflictions
However anabloc synthetic steroids are illegal
However heroin on the streets is also illegal
So actually, its exactly what veg has been saying-the legality of it all
Prescription is no excuse, no one comes here and asks if because they have some skin condition they could get away with trying to be prescribed dianabol or something dumb like that
Theres tonnes of illegal drugs out there that are then used for medicines or derivatives for medication.
Steroids for anabolic use are illegal-that should be enough to not have a single piece of information on steroids on these boards
TOS explicitly states any posting of illegal material will be deleted and ISP's may be contacted depending on severity.
Seriously, if marc is reading this, i will delete all roid based threads, give me a list of all the roids (as i dont know many and some might be weirdly named legal supps i think are roids) and il have the supp area of this site clean of roid talk entirely in a week, tonnes of deletion but there we go.
TOS says it shouldnt be here anyway, so my offer is quite a nice one.
Like i said, get mods to post why not to take them, side effects, lock it up, 3 days later-delete
Or make a macro so when the same IP looks onto the page, it gets deleted within the hour, or someone under the same username would be more effective for dynamic IP's
really you could toughen this sites security up so much so no roid talk can even be posted, and any slang can be easily detected by mods and put onto a ban list so it comes up with gobble dee gook.
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(in reply to JeffKing)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 3:03:45 PM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
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From: Reston, VA
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quote:
no one comes here and asks if because they have some skin condition they could get away with trying to be prescribed dianabol or something dumb like that
Theres tonnes of illegal drugs out there that are then used for medicines or derivatives for medication.
Thank Crom for cooler heads!
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 4:02:58 PM
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veggeep
Posts: 1456
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You know, Crom!
CROM DAMN YOU!!!!
Crom is mighty on his mountain! He laughs at your Four Winds!
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 4:48:13 PM
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Jayman666
Posts: 135
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JeffKing
quote:
ORIGINAL: veggeep
quote:
Comparing steroids or PH to heroine is just irresponsible. The two have nothing in common and your fear and mis-information approach was done in the 80's and it failed miserably.
Excuse me, they have one thing EMINENTLY in common: They are both ILLEGAL.
I was not comparing the health risks of steroids to the health risks of taking heroine. I was comparing the legality. That is niether irresponsible nor "fear and mis-information".
Wrong again. One is illegal the other is a prescription drug used legally every day by thousands of people. One is legally used in medicine to heal people the other is a opioid used to get high that is sold on the black market.
Again you post mis-information.
Marihuana is used by thousands of people legally. If I'm caught smoking it by a cop I'm busted though. Wasn't prescribed to me.
(in reply to JeffKing)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 5:12:00 PM
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twistedlink
Posts: 3126
Joined: 5/31/2005
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The analogies are just making extra arguments that arent needed.
No one, even if they are stating very educated truth, should be saying how best to take steroids to sometimes members here as young as 13, its just sick.
post up side effects, and the negatives of steroids and PH's, do not answer or hint at a single bit of advice, and then delete it once its been read by them.
They can then go onto wherever to get advice, but DBB.com right now is anti steroid, with a supp forum 90% filled with steroid information, and a lot of it is dangerously wrong.
Im surprised a court case hasnt happened yet quite honestly considering this is the 21st century and court cases have gone to millions for simply losing dry clean pants 
Steroids should not be discussed, let alone given hints and tips and general guidelines on how BEST to do them, thats just asking for trouble.
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(in reply to Jayman666)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 5:18:42 PM
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jheft
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Twisted, you must answer the Riddle of Steel!
sorry...
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Journal: Jheft's Heftorium, Progress Photos (new as of 2008-03-08), My Stack
Current stats: 5'11", 184.6 lbs - currently cutting
2008 Results: +23.0 lbs bulk, -11.6 lbs cut, 2nd Place Discussbodybuilding.com Transformation Contest
"Whatever comes out of your mouth is a meaningless waste of breath, an airborne toxic event."
-- Principal Snyder
(in reply to Jayman666)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 6:25:44 PM
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odw777
Posts: 843
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twistedlink
Steroids for anabolic use are illegal-that should be enough to not have a single piece of information on steroids on these boards
TOS explicitly states any posting of illegal material will be deleted and ISP's may be contacted depending on severity.
Seriously, if marc is reading this, i will delete all roid based threads, give me a list of all the roids (as i dont know many and some might be weirdly named legal supps i think are roids) and il have the supp area of this site clean of roid talk entirely in a week, tonnes of deletion but there we go.
TOS says it shouldnt be here anyway, so my offer is quite a nice one.
Like i said, get mods to post why not to take them, side effects, lock it up, 3 days later-delete
Or make a macro so when the same IP looks onto the page, it gets deleted within the hour, or someone under the same username would be more effective for dynamic IP's
really you could toughen this sites security up so much so no roid talk can even be posted, and any slang can be easily detected by mods and put onto a ban list so it comes up with gobble dee gook.
I think you're missing the distinction between the stuff that's out on the market now and illegal steroids. This stuff is NOT illegal to posses or buy. I can go to my gym and buy a handful of phs off the shelf.
I fail to see what you would accomplish by trying to delete all ph posts. You need to know the nomenclature of the compounds not just the names, of which there is a huge number and growing all the time. Some use made up chemical formulas to hide the formula.
Now if someone is under 21 and comes in talking about phs, that should be locked. But there should be at least a sticky in this section.
And again where do you draw the line? You know there's a legal ai that contains a mild androgen? Are you going to censor that? Then if you censor that, then you might as well censor all ai's because some are potentially anabolic themselves and there's a couple of good examples of that. What about arachidonic acid supplements? And so then if you censor those, what about test boosters that use extracts? What about dhea? The point I'm trying to make is that it's hard to draw the line, when you're looking at LEGAL supplements on the market right now.
< Message edited by odw777 -- 8/1/2007 6:27:04 PM >
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 6:27:57 PM
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VaughnTrue
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wow ok everyone simmer down.
vegeep...I completely agree that talk/information on illegal compounds should not be allowed, however the compounds in question are in fact LEGAL.
The illegal "prohormones" you are referring to are most likely: 1-ad, 4-ad , and all class-1 ph's.
There are MANY prohormones that are available today that are LEGAL, and considerably stronger than things of the past. Some names of these LEGAL compounds are:
Superdrol(fda never banned it and it is still sold legally in cloned versions)
Halodrol
PheraPlex(fda never banned it and it is still sold legally in cloned versions)
1,4AD(this has been around since about 2001 I believe and is the safest/most effective prohormone on the market)
Trenadrol/Trenaplex
Propadrol
Revolt
Epistane/Havoc
M14AD(methylated version of 1,4AD)
Furzadrol(orastan-a)
Promagnon-25
Oxyguno
EVERY one of these products is legal, and available on the majority of large supplement websites and many brick and mortar stores.
The difference between the majority of these products and products "before the ban" is the fact that the majority of these products are not "prohormones", but in fact designer steroids that need no converting.
This is exactly why we need a post about all LEGAL prohormones/designer steroids...to weed out the misinformation this site brings about them.
-Vaughn
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(in reply to twistedlink)
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