RE: ok...who thinks we need this
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 7/31/2007 11:31:37 PM
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toolman4052
Posts: 2667
Joined: 8/12/2006
From: Russellville AR
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quote:
ORIGINAL: VaughnTrue
I just think this board is in need of a change...these are the options IMO
1. Lock every single prohormone/designer steroid thread
2. Place a sticky(not necessarily written by me, however I would like to help) explaining EVERYTHING that is needed to help users understand the daners/risks of prohormones as well as their positive qualities.
3. Open up the prohormone section and have it moderated extremely close.
Any of those sound good to me. However, if option 1 is chosen, I still think people should be able to include the prohormone they're using in their supp list and their journal so that they don't appear dishonest...
quote:
not to belabor the point I've already made, but I think it bears mentioning that everyone's disgust over the misinformation being posted about gear and prohormones is a lousy reason to clarify their "propper" use with a sticky. Are you telling me that if I get enough people to post misleading instructions about how to cook heroine, you'll want a sticky demonstrating the correct way to shoot up? And before you answer "no", think about the double standard you'll be advocating by promoting one kind of controlled substance vs. Another.
No, the admins can't keep policing every misleading thread about elicit substances, but they don't have to condone it outright. You should know better, Vaughn -there's no such thing as a "last word" on that subject. And as knowledgable as I'm sure you are, I doubt yours would be the end-all post you think it will.
Id be just as interested in reading it as the next guy, but it doesnt belong on a site that actively strives to promote a drug-free approach to bodybuilding. To that end, maybe we should be quashing all discussions (especially the misinformed ones) about AAS and PHs.
We are talking about legal prohormones/prosteroids. As long as it's not a legal issue, I see no problem with it. The actual anabolic steroid talk may need to stop, but I believe people need access to an information source on the legal substances.
And I think that if Vaughn put some time into it, he could make a very good sticky that would cover nearly everything. He could include things like the time of day to take each pill, all support supps, what to expect from each ph, and everything PCT... And in the sticky, have a side note that says "If you have any questions that aren't included in the above article, PM VaughnTrue", or something like that... that way, there would be no new posts on ph's.
(in reply to VaughnTrue)
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[Deleted] - 8/1/2007 12:00:01 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
(in reply to toolman4052)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 12:04:40 AM
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toolman4052
Posts: 2667
Joined: 8/12/2006
From: Russellville AR
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sarshar
hey champ how you doing ?
man i am needing to know if 3,6,17 androsterione works ...
i dont wanna have roids but i want the fast results ...
you know any good product closest to steroids ??? (i mean the effect of puting on mass?
Sarshar, thank you for providing us with a good example of why we are having this thread...
< Message edited by toolman4052 -- 8/1/2007 12:08:34 AM >
(in reply to Deleted User)
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[Deleted] - 8/1/2007 12:09:02 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
(in reply to veggeep)
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[Deleted] - 8/1/2007 12:10:41 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 12:18:36 AM
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toolman4052
Posts: 2667
Joined: 8/12/2006
From: Russellville AR
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sarshar
im new to the supplement game ...(got n o idea were to start)
Protein, creatine, BCAAs, fish oil
(in reply to Deleted User)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 3:48:37 AM
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veggeep
Posts: 3043
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
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quote:
We are talking about legal prohormones
I wasn't aware there was such a thing. And that in itself may be all the invite you need to proceed, but let's get that cleared up first.
Obviously, if you can dispense advice about a substance any of us can walk into the local GNC and obtain without a prescription, then it belongs in the appropriate forum. Perhaps a whole forum of stickies, one per product, that includes a comprehensive writeup?
Yes, ignorance abounds, but we need to be very careful about what we educate people on for the sake of dispelling their repetitive and annoying misconceptions. We spend probably as much time trying to convince non-BB types that creatine is not a steroid, and we do it by explaining what creatine IS, not by giving them a steroid user's manual.
That's all I'm saying.
(in reply to toolman4052)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 6:28:53 AM
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greenteam
Posts: 148
Joined: 1/17/2007
From: CONNECTICUT/USA
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Any of those sound good to me. However, if option 1 is chosen, I still think people should be able to include the prohormone they're using in their supp list and their journal so that they don't appear dishonest...
I think ToolMan brought up a good point here. It would be a little shady for people to have to leave out a PH or Pro-St when sharing they're training results. I personally have never taken anything other then creatine and NO but have researched the dark side for years. And I'm very happy I did, I wound up helping my friends who were ignorant and stupid run a proper PCT. They didnt even know what a PCT was!
So I definetly think it would be a good idea, I've learned a lot from people on this site and others, extra knowledge does no harm. Especially with all the misleading info online.
(Hey Vaughn, where in CT?)
_____________________________
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES - NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT THEY
BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
(in reply to toolman4052)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 7:03:26 AM
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VaughnTrue
Posts: 925
Joined: 2/19/2006
From: NY
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quote:
oolMan brought up a good point here. It would be a little shady for people to have to leave out a PH or Pro-St when sharing they're training results. I personally have never taken anything other then creatine and NO but have researched the dark side for years. And I'm very happy I did, I wound up helping my friends who were ignorant and stupid run a proper PCT. They didnt even know what a PCT was!
So I definetly think it would be a good idea, I've learned a lot from people on this site and others, extra knowledge does no harm. Especially with all the misleading info online.
(Hey Vaughn, where in CT?) quote:
ORIGINAL: greenteam
Any of those sound good to me. However, if option 1 is chosen, I still think people should be able to include the prohormone they're using in their supp list and their journal so that they don't appear dishonest...
I think ToolMan brought up a good point here. It would be a little shady for people to have to leave out a PH or Pro-St when sharing they're training results. I personally have never taken anything other then creatine and NO but have researched the dark side for years. And I'm very happy I did, I wound up helping my friends who were ignorant and stupid run a proper PCT. They didnt even know what a PCT was!
So I definetly think it would be a good idea, I've learned a lot from people on this site and others, extra knowledge does no harm. Especially with all the misleading info online.
(Hey Vaughn, where in CT?)
New Britain and the moment...right down the road from CCSU
_____________________________
"poena est vires in dissimulo"
Start
Height : 6'
Weight : 258lbs
Waist : 38"
Bicep : 16"
Neck : 20"
Now
Height : 6'
Weight : 200
Waist : 32"
Bicep : 17.25
Neck : 19"
BF% - 7.4%
(in reply to greenteam)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 7:10:13 AM
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twistedlink
Posts: 8344
Joined: 5/31/2005
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This might just be an idea because of late ive been learning how to program, but why dont you have a script so when someone posts the "OK" button it searches the window for any steroid names, and derivatives like how people avoid **** by saying sh!t etc etc.
Its quite simple once you know the code...I dont know what system you use here Marc, but I'd be willing to learn the language in my free time and show you how to do it if Kris is busy (havent seen him recently)
Or, delete all steroid and pH talk
Im no mod so i dont know the ins and outs of how deletions work here, but being a mod in 3 other forums and Co-admin in another forum its usually piss simple
I log in here nearly every day, and i continously press F5 for more comments
I could roll off 250 roid posts a day without wasting any time, because that time wouldve been used pressing F5 or doing some dumb ass crap with my dumb life anyway.
Just delete all steroid talk, knowledge is fine for topics that require knowledge
Knowledge on sex is great, sex is natural and requires information when young, otherwise you get problems
Knowledge on many things is taught in schools etc for serious matters
But knowledge on taking a drug should not be anywhere, I dont care if you have 400 product stack PCT, if you take synthetic steroids to a standard/high dose-you're going to do something adverse to your body
Knowledge like that (as veggeep has stated) shouldn't be here (or anywhere personally)
Mods should simply post a message (maybe pre made, write a script where when you type "steroid message_answer" it comes up with
"Don't take steroids, yada yada yada"
so they dont have to continuously type it out.
and then lock it up, once 3 days have passed and the original user has had time to read the reply, delete it.
I'm very anti steroid, and while i have read info on them, i still dont think its a smart idea, anywhere, not just DBB.com.
_____________________________
It has come to my attention that others are getting there results, but not me, this is racism!
(in reply to greenteam)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 7:16:55 AM
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twistedlink
Posts: 8344
Joined: 5/31/2005
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Also, please take note of the possible fact that even if you told someone to run a proper PCT, and the products, once they know the prices theyl think youre either just trying to get money, or they simply wont be bothered to do it.
The amount of members here who post "I workout 4 hours everyday on bench and im not getting stronger"
when we then post up decent diets and squats and deadlifts, do they listen?
Mostly not.
So whats different with education of steroids?
Nothing personally, many still wont listen, and many extra wont listen because the PCT products involve $ and when a product is high $ and you dont know much about it or someone tries explaining the science behind something of why its high $
Most people come to a conclusion that theyre trying to just get money, and dont bother getting it.
_____________________________
It has come to my attention that others are getting there results, but not me, this is racism!
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 8:19:48 AM
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johnnyb1635
Posts: 653
Joined: 3/6/2006
From: Boston Mass
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twistedlink
Also, please take note of the possible fact that even if you told someone to run a proper PCT, and the products, once they know the prices theyl think youre either just trying to get money, or they simply wont be bothered to do it.
The amount of members here who post "I workout 4 hours everyday on bench and im not getting stronger"
when we then post up decent diets and squats and deadlifts, do they listen?
Mostly not.
So whats different with education of steroids?
Nothing personally, many still wont listen, and many extra wont listen because the PCT products involve $ and when a product is high $ and you dont know much about it or someone tries explaining the science behind something of why its high $
Most people come to a conclusion that theyre trying to just get money, and dont bother getting it.
Like I said, no matter how you look at it right now, your pissing up a tree. With all the DS's and PH's on the market right now, all of our efforts to either: A) Stop all talk about them or B) Educate people about them, are going to be futile. No matter how you look at it, people are going to continue using these substances because they are not illegal and they are available. Even if, for example, someone uses a Halodrol Clone, while Gaspari's Halodrol-50 is disconinued and "illegal" all the clones, whether it be CEL's Hdrol, or Oxyguno, are NOT and people will still be using them.
_____________________________
AFAA(Aerobics and Fitness Associations of America) Certified Personal Trainer.
(in reply to twistedlink)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 8:39:19 AM
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toolman4052
Posts: 2667
Joined: 8/12/2006
From: Russellville AR
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: veggeep
I wasn't aware there was such a thing. And that in itself may be all the invite you need to proceed, but let's get that cleared up first.
Yeah, there are quite a few these days.
quote:
Obviously, if you can dispense advice about a substance any of us can walk into the local GNC and obtain without a prescription, then it belongs in the appropriate forum. Perhaps a whole forum of stickies, one per product, that includes a comprehensive writeup?
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. The only problem is that that will take a lot of someone's (Vaughn, haha) time to do such an in depth article on a bunch of different ph's. I guess a few people could get in on it and write them, and then Vaughn could go back and edit the articles till they are correct or something tho...
quote:
Yes, ignorance abounds, but we need to be very careful about what we educate people on for the sake of dispelling their repetitive and annoying misconceptions. We spend probably as much time trying to convince non-BB types that creatine is not a steroid, and we do it by explaining what creatine IS, not by giving them a steroid user's manual.
True true
(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 8:46:59 AM
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jheft
Posts: 3153
Joined: 1/3/2007
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Comprehensive sex education reduces rates of teen pregnancy and STDs and doesn't increase risky sexual, and abstinence-only sex-ed doesn't stop kids from having sex. I doubt steroids is any different. So, I'm of the attitude that if they don't learn correct information in a structured way, they're going to learn the wrong info on "the street" from that creepy guy with the trench-coat and the sticky Penthouse magazines.
However, if the forum is going to be hormone-free, there's gotta be a firm policy, because right now, there isn't one. In my opinion, the policy should be locking any and all threads started about steroids/prohormones with a form letter attached. Something along the lines of:
quote:
You've posted a question about steroids or prohormones. This is a drug-free board, so you'll have to go elsewhere for the information you seek. However, we advise that the information you currently have - even the information on the bottle - is probably very wrong and will do serious harm to your health. Use of steroids is serious business and must be engaged with extreme caution.
If there's going to be some sort of master thread providing information, it should be as accurate and comprehensive as possible and emphasize the risks. All sex-ed classes emphasize the risks of sex because there's no reason to tell people all the "benefits" of sex (sex is fun), and likewise, there's no reason to tell people about the benefits of steroids. Everybody knows why they're taken. Even moreso, sex is a healthy, natural part of human behavior and steroids... aren't.
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Journal: Jheft's Heftorium, Progress Photos (new as of 2008-03-08), My Stack
Current stats: 5'11", 189.4 lbs - currently cutting
2008 Results: +23.0 lbs bulk, -6.8 lbs cut, 2nd Place Discussbodybuilding.com Transformation Contest
"I will veto every single beer!"
-- John McCain
(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 8:51:04 AM
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toolman4052
Posts: 2667
Joined: 8/12/2006
From: Russellville AR
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Yeah, but the fact is that these are legal products. Whether or not they're necessary or not isn't the point. People can buy them at their local supp shop, and they will, and we may as well educate them on the subject...
(in reply to jheft)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 9:00:29 AM
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greenteam
Posts: 148
Joined: 1/17/2007
From: CONNECTICUT/USA
Status: offline
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Vaughn,
Hard Hittin' New Britain haha, used to go up there sometimes while my friends went to CCSU. I'm a Milford man myself, def check it out down here if you like the nite life once and a while.
_____________________________
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES - NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT THEY
BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
(in reply to toolman4052)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 10:14:55 AM
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veggeep
Posts: 3043
Joined: 10/10/2005
From: Reston, VA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jheft
Comprehensive sex education reduces rates of teen pregnancy and STDs and doesn't increase risky sexual, and abstinence-only sex-ed doesn't stop kids from having sex. I doubt steroids is any different. So, I'm of the attitude that if they don't learn correct information in a structured way, they're going to learn the wrong info on "the street" from that creepy guy with the trench-coat and the sticky Penthouse magazines.
Call me a callous bastard, but if someone wants to pursue a course of action after they've been told in very certain terms that there are significant health risks attached to it and that the activity is illegal, then I don't think they're particularly deserving of instruction on how to flout the law "correctly". Someone would have to be an epic retard, or living in total denial to come to a decision to use steroids without having heard at least anecdotally that doing so is illegal and frought with peril. If they want to take those risks anyway, and they're too stupid or lazy to do more than pose the question to a self-claimed drug-free discussion group, then they deserve to suffer the consequences of their ignorance.
It's like saying "a lot of people are going to blow up their homes trying to make meth in their basement. We should spare them the injury of blowing up their home by teaching them safe methods to produce their poison." Could anything be less logical? "Compound XYZ is useless. Let me save you the injustice of wasting your money by showing you how to properly abuse your endocrine system." It's like robbing Peter to stab Paul.
I don't think we have any responsibility to encourage "proper" cheating simply on the grounds that "people will do it anyway".
And while I agree with your position against abstinence-only sex ed, I don't think it's an apt analogy, because sex -while it can carry specific health risks- is not illegal. No one is going to haul two people of consenting age to jail for knockin' boots without using effective birth control.
As far as I'm concerned, legality is EVERYTHING in this issue. I personally have a supply of DHEA that I bought before it made the IOC's list of banned substances, but I never cracked the seals on the bottles because almost as soon as I bought it, I stumbled upon a frenzy of conflicting information about how useless it is. Toolman says we're talking about "Legal" pro-hormones -and my basic point is we have no business censoring information about legal substances. Personally, I'm curious; I'd like to know specifically what legal pro-hormones are available and which are effective, because I'm all about taking advantage of every safe, legal edge you can in your quest for athletic excellence.
Last, let's not forget that just because a substance is legal (as in DEA legal), that is no guarantee that your sanctioning body of choice won't still throw you off the team for using it. If you show up to compete with an out-of-whack T/epi ratio, they're gonna come down on you as though your were on gear -and plenty of legal substances can precipitate that kind of "false" positive (note the quotes).
(in reply to jheft)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 10:53:00 AM
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jheft
Posts: 3153
Joined: 1/3/2007
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You're right, my analogy is bogus. I should have recognized that myself when I ended my post with "sex is a healthy, natural part of human behavior and steroids... aren't."
_____________________________
Journal: Jheft's Heftorium, Progress Photos (new as of 2008-03-08), My Stack
Current stats: 5'11", 189.4 lbs - currently cutting
2008 Results: +23.0 lbs bulk, -6.8 lbs cut, 2nd Place Discussbodybuilding.com Transformation Contest
"I will veto every single beer!"
-- John McCain
(in reply to veggeep)
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RE: ok...who thinks we need this - 8/1/2007 11:04:38 AM
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JeffKing
Posts: 495
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: veggeep
not to belabor the point I've already made, but I think it bears mentioning that everyone's disgust over the misinformation being posted about gear and prohormones is a lousy reason to clarify their "propper" use with a sticky. Are you telling me that if I get enough people to post misleading instructions about how to cook heroine, you'll want a sticky demonstrating the correct way to shoot up? And before you answer "no", think about the double standard you'll be advocating by promoting one kind of controlled substance vs. Another.
No, the admins can't keep policing every misleading thread about elicit substances, but they don't have to condone it outright. You should know better, Vaughn -there's no such thing as a "last word" on that subject. And as knowledgable as I'm sure you are, I doubt yours would be the end-all post you think it will.
Id be just as interested in reading it as the next guy, but it doesnt belong on a site that actively strives to promote a drug-free approach to bodybuilding. To that end, maybe we should be quashing all discussions (especially the misinformed ones) about AAS and PHs.
Comparing steroids or PH to heroine is just irresponsible. The two have nothing in common and your fear and mis-information approach was done in the 80's and it failed miserably.
Nothing wrong with educating kids about how steroids and PH can negatively effect the Endocrine system and bone growth in teens and people in their early 20's. Giving them a list of side effects, laws on controlled substances and also a true view of what the black market is would be a good thing. As for telling them how to inject and what to use I think that is something this site should not get involved in.
_____________________________
If you can bench press more than you can squat you should be ashamed.
(in reply to veggeep)
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