Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet

I'm a busy man, so coming soon, but im getting a bit worried with everyone ready to try it out.
 
Il hopefully have this done maybe by midnight UK time, if not, tommorow morning.

It's impossible to meddle with something that doesn't have a plan

you plan on providing an analytical study on this type of program-not sure what the intent of the post is

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My plan is to find at least 3-5 sources of how this keto diet works, and put that under the test of the science i know (which is a lot)
 
It has both good and bad points, im not biased, and i will put up both good and bad points.

It's impossible to meddle with something that doesn't have a plan

Pros in blue, cons in black, both in green
 
 
 
stress test:source 1
 
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm
 
1.

The main benefit being that it increases the body's ability to utilize fats for fuel, which gets very lazy on a high carbohydrate diet. When on high carbohydrate diets the body can usually expect an energy source to keep entering the body. But in the state of ketosis the body has to become efficient at mobilizing fats as energy.

 
Really? High carbohydrates make your body stop burning fats?
So, theyre saying, on a standard carbohydrate/protein/fat split of 50/25/25 all them 50% carbs (1500 calories worth) is going to be burnt, while fats wont?
 
Fact:when the body has heightened its blood sugar levels to normal standards under homeostasis, it will convert all left over carbohydrates to glycogen, once all areas are full, it will convert this carbohydrate to fat, and isnt that good according to this diet? that your macronutrients are more-so fats?
 
Also note
 

When on high carbohydrate diets the body can usually expect an energy source to keep entering the body.

 
So when eating 75% Fats in 5-7 meals throughout the day isnt making a constant energy source entering the body?
surely if the body was hormonally responding to 5-7 fat filled meals, it would actually inhibit fat burning around the muscles unless absolutely needed, and still rely on dietary macronutrients?
 
Fact:Most tissues prefer fats as energy than glucose, this includes muscles as a whole, and cardiac muscle (hence why cardio is good at burning fat)
The only things that prefer glucose is the nervous system workings, and red blood cells.
So when your body stores the carbohydrates-it will do this anyway, of course, if the body lacks glucose, the body does become more efficient at burning fats-that is true.
 
 

Another nifty thing about being in a state of ketosis is that if the body has no further use for ketones they can simply be excreted through urine as a waste product. This means that at times your body will be peeing out body fat! This is a novel theme because you body is very efficient at storing energy substrates for later use.

 
Peeing out bodyfat? where is the science behind actual whole fatty acid chains being broken down i the body and then entering the kidneys via water and urea to then be removed as a waste product?
Doesnt sound good to me
 
Little bit of knowledge-when a glucose ring is "unwound" into a chain structure-it is a ketone, just a little knowledge there.
 

Ketosis has a protein sparing effect, assuming that you are consuming adequate quantities of protein and calories in the first place. Once in ketosis the body actually prefers ketones to glucose. Since the body has copious quanities of fat this means that there is no need to oxidize protein to generate glucose through gluconeogenesis.

 
Fact:Gluconeogenesis will ONLY occur if glucagon is present in moderate amounts, glucagon is the hormone that will breakdown glycogen to glucose,
 
Gluconeogenesis will ONLY occur if GLYCOGEN reserves are almost COMPLETELY used up, in other words, the liver will convert amino acids into glucose for energy.
 
This will only occur under low levels of glycogen (glucose storage unit)
 
what can we deduce from this?
 
that gluconeogenesis ISNT a problem to ANYONE as long as they have carbohydrates with there meals, proteins will be used for building muscle vastly better with carbohydrates as a part of every meal (which may i say is what danmirage has been saying all along)
 
The funny thing, is gluconeogenesis occurs with LOW glucose levels right?
well your carbs are 5%
 
so actually, ketogenic dieters are actually converting most of there protein INTO glucose, which is a complete waste.
 

Another benefit has to do with the low levels of insulin in the body, which causes greater lipolysis and free glycerol release compared to a normal diet when insulin is around 80-120. Insulin has a lipolysis blocking effect, which can inhibit the use of fatty acids as energy. Also when insulin is brought to low levels many beneficial hormones are released in the body such as growth hormone and other powerful growth factors.

 
This is just obviously dangerous, lowering insulin? come on guys, thats the problem diabetics have, not enough insulin, so when it comes to "carb up" time for all keto dieters, youre going to maybe have some side effects of diabetes folk, very high sugar blood levels, because your body is now become less efficient at producing insulin
 
 
this is without a doubt one of the most worrying aspects of this diet.
 

Another small but very important benefit about the ketogenic diet is that when in the state of ketosis, ketones seem to blunt hunger in many people. I mean honestly, what is not better than being on a low calorie diet and not being hungry all the time like you usually are such as on a high carbohydrate diet. Since on the ketogenic diet you have to consume a lot of fat, which hold 9 calories, you are not getting much food volume. This makes not being hungry a very good thing when on the diet. When you add such thermogenics like the ECA stack and prescription appetite suppressants you won't even think about your next meal. It's kind of funny that when the Atkins' diet first came out one of the early criticisms was that the diet blunted hunger too much! What, is it mandatory to be hungry on a reduced calorie diet?

 
Eating loads of sweets will still keep you hungry, it is no benefit, other than eating even more fats, the body has hormonal responses to what youre putting in your body, this hunger is possibly from lack of glucose and glycogen
 
 
 
Overall, what can you determine from this diet?
 
1.It will work
2.They only half ass the science behind it
3.It will **** your body up-big time.
 
I wont deny it doesnt work-it does, and the blue and green part posted is the reason it works, including the fact that the high lipid amounts increase testosterone levels through the roof, helping use whatever protein left into building muscle better than non ketogenic dieters.
 
This diet puts severe stress on the liver, AND the nervous system which prefers glucose, and it is your nervous system that gives you your strength and your immune system in many respects.
 
 

It's impossible to meddle with something that doesn't have a plan

awesome work keep it up u know your stuff anyways i have one more question can u get kidney disease from a keto diet or any other disease

I find your thoughts difficult to follow

this hunger is possibly from lack of glucose and glycogen -not sure what this is suppose to mean.  Blunting hunger means YOU DONT BECOME HUNGRY on a ketogenic diet.  That is a proven fact for ANYONE that has even tried the diet.

Have you ever tried the diet?

Other than a cut and paste job from bb.com and some opinions do you have any research studies and data to support your conclusions

we spent a good amount of time debating it in the past but i am not about to start it over

There are several good resources The Body Opus and The ketogenic dieters handbook for people who are interested in understanding the benefits and mechanisms behind a keo diet

[image]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/203/njmuscle66qg2.gif[/image]

o i forgot one more thhing is carb cycling good and is it better than a keto diet for fat loss and if it is this is my plan
 
the total plan
day 1: 250g carbs/1g of protein per pound of bodyweight
day 2 and 3: 125g carbs/1.6g of protein per pound of bodyweight.
day 4 and 5: 75g carbs/1.8g of protein per pound bodyweight
day 8: 400g carbs/1g of protein per pound of bodyweight
 
i will also be doing HIIT and lifting 4 days a week
any help would be appreciated and thx

I think we should debate it again. For one, the old post, I found no helpful information in it, honestly. I mean there was information.. that I already know. And after it trailed off, the topic got off to people's sensitivity to carb depending on body type.
 
I want to do this diet, but it is very confusing. Like, it takes two weeks time without a carb up to become ketogenic, correct? So, if you lost bodyfat out the ass until you were satisfied, and you were ready to get off the diet, would you gain the fat back going into a moderate carb, high protein, low fat macro?
 
I have tried the diet.. for 1 1/2 weeks time. And he is right, hunger is not an issue at any time. Nj, what are your results from this diet? Have you bulked with it and lost BF? Or just cut with it?

The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible.

I dont mind a healthy debate -but usually it turns into the ketogenic diets are not healthy, bad and you screw you up big time -I took that from Twists "study"
That is frustrating to me when I can post study after study about the benefits of a low carb diet.  Yes if one was to "go off the diet" you would gradually reintrodce larger amount of carbs into the diet. However that begs the question-  IF it is working and producing the results you desire-Why stop using it?

Ketogenic diets I will agree serve better as a "cut" however I am not a big fan of "buking" anyway as a concept and see it as just an excuse for people to eat excessive calories, gain scale weight, and delude themselves that they are gaining mass
 
Lyle Mcdonald did alot of the research on this so you can google him

[image]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/203/njmuscle66qg2.gif[/image]

I read about Lyle on BB.com, and I googled his actualy page thing up and learned about him.
 

.  Yes if one was to "go off the diet" you would gradually reintrodce larger amount of carbs into the diet. However that begs the question-  IF it is working and producing the results you desire-Why stop using it?

Ketogenic diets I will agree serve better as a "cut" however I am not a big fan of "buking" anyway as a concept and see it as just an excuse for people to eat excessive calories, gain scale weight, and delude themselves that they are gaining mass

 
Okay, thank you for answering that question. If no one comes in with heated arguments about ketosis, this should be a fine discussion. Now, you can bulk with this diet and make great gains? Protein is lowish, so I wonder if that is even a big factor? I know high fat = more test in the system, so it makes sense that it would add more muscle mass, but how would you set up calories to not "have an excuse to eat excessively"?
 
Example, my maintanence is about 2,400 calories. I need 1,900 to cut, and 2,900 to bulk. Or is this a diet where no fat is ever actually added even while "bulking"?

The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible.

ORIGINAL: njmuscle66

I find your thoughts difficult to follow

this hunger is possibly from lack of glucose and glycogen -not sure what this is suppose to mean.  Blunting hunger means YOU DONT BECOME HUNGRY on a ketogenic diet.  That is a proven fact for ANYONE that has even tried the diet.

Have you ever tried the diet?

Other than a cut and paste job from bb.com and some opinions do you have any research studies and data to support your conclusions

we spent a good amount of time debating it in the past but i am not about to start it over

There are several good resources The Body Opus and The ketogenic dieters handbook for people who are interested in understanding the benefits and mechanisms behind a keo diet

 
Yeah I agree, this sounds good but actual research studies are a must when trying to argue and critique something like this, they're not hard to find and would really add a huge amount of credibility.
 
So njmuscle what's is your take on the keto diet? Do you agree with Arnold's book saying that the best way is to remain just on the brink of ketosis by measuring for ketones in your urine and so on?
 
 

ORIGINAL: odw777

ORIGINAL: njmuscle66

I find your thoughts difficult to follow

this hunger is possibly from lack of glucose and glycogen -not sure what this is suppose to mean.  Blunting hunger means YOU DONT BECOME HUNGRY on a ketogenic diet.  That is a proven fact for ANYONE that has even tried the diet.

Have you ever tried the diet?

Other than a cut and paste job from bb.com and some opinions do you have any research studies and data to support your conclusions

we spent a good amount of time debating it in the past but i am not about to start it over

There are several good resources The Body Opus and The ketogenic dieters handbook for people who are interested in understanding the benefits and mechanisms behind a keo diet

Yeah I agree, this sounds good but actual research studies are a must when trying to argue and critique something like this, they're not hard to find and would really add a huge amount of credibility.

So njmuscle what's is your take on the keto diet? Do you agree with Arnold's book saying that the best way is to remain just on the brink of ketosis by measuring for ketones in your urine and so on?

 
My take is this diet works VERY well for my diet and lifestyle.  I pretty much follow it for  the VAST majority of the time over the last 4-5 years  I use a Target Ketogenic Diet (carbs around my workouts) rather than a cyclical (weekend carb up).
 
I would rather have steak and salad or eggd an turkey bacon than a pasta dish, breads, etc  I consider myself very carb sensitive so I follow the diet, snack on almonds and the like and enjoy it immensely

[image]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/203/njmuscle66qg2.gif[/image]

what about my question

I am not really following your question can you clairfy what you mean

[image]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/203/njmuscle66qg2.gif[/image]

1. ok i was asking if carb cycling would be better than a keto diet for fat loss and if it is this a good routine to follow.
 
day 1: 250g carbs / 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight
day 2 and 3: 125g carbs / 1.6g of protein per pound of bodyweight.
day 4 and 5: 75g carbs / 1.8g of protein per pound bodyweight
day 8: 400g carbs /1g of protein per pound of bodyweight
 
i will also be doing HIIT two days a week and lifting 3 days a week
 
2. my second question is will a keto diet give u kidney disease or diabetes or any other disease