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 Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help!

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drastic

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Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:15 PM
Hey guys, I just found this site today and I literally spent all afternoon reading and learning on the forums and various links.  What an awesome find!  I found answers to soooo many questions that I've had for years.

Let me explain my situation I guess:  I'm 25, 6'5" and currently weigh 435 lbs.  I have a body fat % of about 50-52%.  Obviously, I am very overweight - and I've had entirely enough of this pathetic lifestyle.  Believe it or not, I was no stranger to the gym up until I went to college.  In high school, I battled being chubby, but I was generally in control of my health.  Anyways, I had a blast researching this forum today and I learned a lot that has motivated me even more to do something I never even dreamed that I could do... get into peak physical shape, sculpt my body, and be a "body builder."  I have a huge frame of a body (tall, big legs, huge chest), and I lotta ppl have told me that they'd "kill for a frame like mine."  I guess in a lot of ways, Im ashamed I haven't taken advantage of what I've been given - but I am dedicated to changing that now.

One more bit of history on me that may or may not be relevant.  Honestly, when I think about it, I probably have more of a "normal" metabolism than I'd like to think.  In the past, I've successfully done low-carb ketogenic diets and had tremendous, fast success.  For example, the second time I did it, in Aug 2003, I lost 60 lbs. in 10 weeks by coupling the diet with gym time (I now know that it was probably pretty ineffective working out though after reading today).  So anyways, I know that I can lose weight when I focus and discipline myself.  I do not plan on doing a low-carb diet again (unless y'all recommend it for some reason).  I'd rather make a true lifestyle change - something permanent.

Again, I took in a TON of information today, and had a blast doing it (I can be a huge nerd at times lol)... but it also spawned many questions about the information.  Can you guys please help me out with these questions?  I’ve been a member of enough forums to know how annoying newbies can be, so I am trying hard to find answers myself and ask intelligent questions - I do not want to waste anyone’s time here, I assure you.  Also, I guess the main point of me posting this is to determine if any changes or alterations to the information/guidelines/plans/formulas/etc. should be made for people in my situation (very overweight, wanting to start out).

1) Can I or can’t I focus on effectively building muscle and losing weight at the same time?  (for the sake of clarity, when I say losing weight in this thread, I am meaning burning fat)  I have read conflicting answers to this on this site… In the free e-book by Marc David (that you get when you reg on the forums), he clearly says in Question #10 that the answer is “no” - you have to do one or the other.  However, in Danmirage’s post For Losing Fat (http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/For_Losing_Fat/m_111175/tm.htm), he says that this is, in fact, possible.  And, to be honest, I’ve always heard/been taught that weight training was the most effective method for burning fat.  What’s the deal here – true or false?
 
2) At this point, I want to focus mainly on burning off all of the excess fat as my primary goal (i.e. lowering my BF%), and then I want to focus on building muscle and getting "cut" as my secondary goal.  However, if I can achieve both at the same time, I’d be most interested in that route of course.  What will the optimal diet for me for weight loss while sculpting consist of?  I had of course planned on following Dan’s advice for meals – lean protein, complex carb, fibrous carb, and fat.  I had planned on using the ratio of 25%p/45%c/30%f.  Would you alter this considering my current state?  Any other special customizations you’d recommend for a person in my situation?

3) What supplements should I consider for weight loss while trying to build muscle as well?  I know a multi-vitamin is necessary.  Anything else?  I honestly do not mind putting forth some money on this if it is a solid, accepted supplement proven to give results in most cases.  What about creatine?  I know this will cause some weight gain as the body takes it in and gets to a certain level, but I’ve read that it will also help burn fat because it enhances the fat-burning machines (muscles).

4) Can someone point me to a workout routine that would be good for me as far as losing weight?  I found countless workout routines posted for “gaining mass”… but obviously Im not really in that corner lol…  I’d like to find a routine/plan that incorporated both weights and cardio, naturally.

5) I know my weight training has to be intense in order to get results, but what exactly constitutes a "max" workout to a muscle grp?  Signs to look for?  In working out in the past, I would often get to a point where certain muscles that were being worked would “lock up” and basically just cramp (not painfully) up completely to where I couldn’t move them for a minute or so.  Is this what I should be aiming for at the end of my reps/sets?  Did I go too far, or is that the point where you know you’ve reached the stopping point and to let yourself heal up?

6) As for the above, should I try to achieve this “max intense” workout every time I plan to work that muscle grp?  If so, that would mean working out a muscle group approx. only once every 5-7 days or so, right? - since you need this time to rest and heal?

7) And again, as for the above, how do you know when you've waited long enough between max workouts to work that muscle group again?  When the soreness is gone is it ok to go again or what?

8) Nutrient partitioning agents?  I read a little about them today… are the a practical solution to aiding weight loss currently?  Can anyone give me some down to earth info on them?

9) Is working out in the a.m. always best or does it matter?  I’ve always been taught that working out first thing in the morning (on an empty stomach, besides water) is best because it forces your body to burn what’s inside of it (glucose/glycogen) rather than food you’ve eaten that day.  I know Dan’s thread said that this offered only a slight advantage though.  So is it honestly not that big of a deal what time of day you work out?

10) Red meat or no?  I was planning on cutting red meat out of my diet in the future because of the supposed health benefits of doing so.  Is it worth doing this?  Will I be hindering myself by doing this in any way?  Sometimes I really wonder if the benefits of doing this actually justify doing it… thoughts?

11)  How much protein should I take in daily – conflicting figures… 238g of protein a day?  or 145g?  According to the formula that’s used around the site a lot – 1.14g per lbs. of lean body mass – I should be taking in 238g of protein a day.  (435lbs. * 52% body fat = 209 lbs. lean body weight … 1.14 * 209 = 238)  However, in Dan’s thread, according to his plan I should be taking in only 145g.  (My calculated BMR is 2418 kcal according to the Katch-McArdle Formula, and my caloric intake to lose weight is 2323 kcal according to the spreadsheet at http://www.freedomfly.net/Documents/calorie_calculator.xls, which means that in order to meet 2323 kcal a day, at the 25% protein ratio, I’d need 145g)  Can someone help me figure out this rather large discrepancy?

12)  In Dan’s thread mentioned above, the Pre/Post Workout stuff... do I measure per lbs. of total body weight or per lbs. of lean body weight?  For example it says “.2g of Whey per lbs.”… if that literally means per pound of body weight, then that would be 87g of protein for me… obviously a rather large amount!  Or, would this actually be per lbs. of lean body weight (209 * .2g = 42g for me)??

13) In my case of need for weight loss, would any of the P/PWO stuff be altered?  Besides the cutting out of the during-workout carbs - I know I read that.

14)  Dan’s article also says “Do not drop under BMR for daily calorie intake.”  Does this mean never ever?  Or in my case, would it be prudent to do so?  I, of course, do not want my body to go into “starvation mode,” which would inhibit weight loss.  Would it be a bad idea to simply eat what is equal to my BMR in daily calories in order to lose weight? 
 
15)  Should I stick to the .55 ounces of water per lbs. of body weight figure?  Thats 239 ounces (30 cups) of water intake a day for me at my current weight... is that OK?  Adjust up/down?


I know this has been long guys, and Im incredibly grateful for any and all help.  I’m sure I’ll have more questions as time goes on, but thanks for covering these issues for now.  Hope to be updating you all soon on my progress!
<message edited by drastic on Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:36 PM>
- GABE
danmirage

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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:04 AM
My questions:
How did you determine your Body Fat %?
Did you use the spreadsheet page (based on LBM) to determine your Recommended caloric intake #s?
 
#1
First, gaining muscle and losing fat can happen at the same time...HOWEVER, if you have a large % of bodyfat, then your body may resist gaining muscle while losing fat.  At the same time with a high BF% your muscle gains will not be optimal at first because you have to shift to the muscle building (and fat burning) neurotransmitters, enzymes, proteins, etc.  So be aware that initially the changes may not seem fast.
 
What Marc means is you can not have the goal of doing both at once.  You must have a clear goal, accomplish that and then go from there!
 
You need to cycle your goals.
I recommend selecting an end goal and intermediate "benchmarks", then setting progressive goals and making plans to match...then adjust as you go!
 
I.E.
Final weight/body composition Goal:
253 pounds at 85% Lean Mass (15% Fat) = 215 pounds lean mass / 38 pounds fat
 
Starting weight - 435 pounds
Starting Lean Mass - 209 pounds
Starting Lean Mass% - 48%
 
Overal Goal
Gain 6 pounds muscle
Lose 188 pounds fat
 
10 week goal
420 pounds
209 pounds lean mass
49% Lean Mass

Goal #1 Fat Loss Training 10 Weeks
Fat Loss Goal 15 Pounds
1 week off
 
Goal #2
8 Weeks Muscle Gain
Muscle Gain Goal 4 Pounds
1 week off
 
Goal #3
12 week fat loss training
18 pound fat loss goal
1 week off
 
Goal #4
8 Week Muscle Gain training
4 pounds Muscle gain
1 week off
etc...

#2
First one answered the initial part.
You need to find what you individual chemistry responds optimally to and get your hormonal levels leveled out by eating right for a bit.  Much later, you can work on modulating calories and nutritien ratios over time.  So, you first start observing your responses to various meal plans.
 
#3
Just a multi and an anti-oxidant, and perhaps if you need it, a pro-biotic! Get the diet in place and observe the results before adding anything else.  Get control before adding variables. 
After that, creatine is a good one to add and observe!  After that, you should know what you are doing and will know if you need any support in recovery, rest, energy, appetite, etc.
 
#4
Create a meal plan.
Start with a basic 3-day per week training such as linked in the gaining mass thread.
Only do warm up and cool down cardio at first until you get a maintenance diet figure.  That should take 2-3 weeks.

Then add the HIIT as linked in the threads...that will run 8 weeks...you will be changing your resistance trianing after 5-6 weeks of HIIT as 3-day is only 8 weeks long.
 
#5
The 3-day routine tells you exaclty what to look for.  You went too far.  Trianing has to stay under 40 minutes for resistance training not counting warm up/cool down.
 
#6
Recovery time depends on many things.  One is your specific genetics...another is the style and volume of training...the 3-day routine deals with this.  After a few cycles of trianing, you will know what you respond optimally to and will also know how to optimally progress and vary trianing.
 
#7
Soreness is not really about how well you trained but how well you are conditioned.
Unless it refers to injury...you will learn to recognize the workout soreness!  It will diminish over time.
 
#8
WHAT!?  What are you talking about?
 
#9
That is referring to cardio not resistance trianing.
If you do resistance first thing, make sure you get PWO carbs and protein before.

#10
Moderation.  Lean meat cuts.  Not overcooked.
Get your Cholesterol/blood pressure/ etc Numbers NOW!
Watch how they change in 3 months...6 months!
 
#11
Start with the lower protein figure and adjust from there...adjusting DOWN is not good, adjusting up is better.
2 things here.
1- find how many calories you are eating now
2- find the highest maintenance figure for you
3- gradually adjust to #2 from #1 if they are greatly different!
 
The disparity is based upon different views..one is static and the other is moving.
 
#12
Measure based upon the ideal...209 muscle and 40 fat = 250 pounds...
 
#13
No.  Just cut pre/during workout carbs during loss trianing...abserve the post W/O response and cut down or cut the post carbs.
 
#14
BMR is not maintenance.  Maintenance is MBR x Activity.
There may be times when you modulate calories below this for short short periods...
 
#15
I know it seems like a lot, but start to shoot for it.
Your water intake will drop as the pouds drop!
Water is essential for fat loss!
 
To start:
Make a meal plan and post it so we can work it out
Post your goals and first steps
 
Then:
Get measurements from a doctor
Take photos
Take circumference measures (Neck, chest, Upper Arm, Forearm, Waist, Hips, Thigh, calf)
Take multi point caliper measurements
Weigh on a scale
Do this on the same scale in the same cloths at the same time every week!
 
I know there is a lot to learn, but you will start to see changes and get better and better!
 
You will be in a very new body every 3 months!
drastic

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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:20 AM
Dan, first of all - I cant thank you enough!  I'm going to gather the data/plans that you requested and post back later today.  Just wanted to say thanks first.
drastic

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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:21 AM
OK, I’m back to answer your questions as well as clear up any follow-up questions that I had.  I will complete my custom meal plan, goals/benchmarks, and HIIT plan and post them by tomorrow at the latest, just wanted to make sure we’re on the same page first.
 
-  I determined my BMI by taking circumferential measurements of my body and plugging them into a website calculator for BMI. 
 
-  Yes, I used the spreadsheet page found at http://www.freedomfly.net/Documents/calorie_calculator.xls to calc my recommended daily caloric intake.  Using the Katch-McArdle formula, I determined my BMR to be 2418, and the spreadsheet said that my maintenance figure was 2904 at the “Sedentary” level. (I assume Sedentary is the level you wanted us to use at first?)  It said my “Lose Weight” number was 2323-2468.  I was initially aiming at making a meal plan based around eating 2900 calories a day – is that a good place to start, in order to get somewhat of a “control”??
 
1)  I also understand that due to my body’s terrible condition, it may be a slow start as many things have to change internally – lotsa chemistry.  Again, my #1 goal at this point is to burn off a LOT of fat, and I know I can focus on building massive muscles later, when I am at a much healthier point overall.  That doesn’t discourage me at all!
 
3)  I have taken pro-biotic capsules as part of a detox kit a while ago…but what does a pro-biotic really do?  How do I know if I should be taking one or not?
 
4)  Are you saying I should do cardio only on either side of my resistance training (i.e. warm-up for weights with it, and cool-down from weights with it) for 2-3 weeks until I get a diet maintenance figure?  Or are you saying literally do warm-up & cool-down cardio only for 2-3 weeks (i.e. no weights at all)?  Sorry, I realize this may be a stupid question lol
 
6-7)  Is this the training plan that you recommended I start?  Wasn’t sure if I understood…
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-073-training
Sounds GREAT except for one question:  Is 48 in between workouts really enough for rest/healing?  I am 100% that I am going to be hella sore after 48 hours.  I know this from previous experience in the gym.  Should I still go back to the gym and start working that muscle grp again as the 3-day program instructs, even though I’ll be pretty bad sore?  Maybe I misread something, or just didn’t understand. Also, what about cardio?  The 3-day program sounds fantastic for resistance training, but can you point me to a resource for putting together a custom cardio plan for me?  (sorry if I overlooked this)
 
9)  OK, so if I’m doing resistance training in the mornings, I definitely need to take in carbs/proteins pre workout (AND post, or just pre?)?  Would you recommend eating a normal meal at home, or should I do the BCAA or Whey dosage and maybe like a carb bar or something at the gym?
 
10)  I will get my cholesterol and BP numbers ASAP; I know this can be valuable measuring tool as well as something I should watch anyways.  By moderation, how many times weekly would you suggest having red meat in a meal when I first start out?  I guess this may depend on my cholesterol number huh?
 
11)  OK, I gotcha on the protein intake deal, now that I dig a little deep I understand the disparity being attributed to the static/moving figures in their formulae.  I will start with the 145g as determined by methods in you thread, and then adjust upward from there in the future.
 
12)  Sorry to be a pain in the ass, but I still do not understand your answer here as far as measuring out whey dosage for example.  Are you saying that I should measure it (.2g per lbs. of body weight) according to my end goal body stats (i.e. 250 lbs. as my ideal weight – which would be .2 * 250 = 50g)???  I should not measure based upon my current total body weight or my current lean body weight?  Sorry again, I hope I am not confusing you with my misunderstandings  ;)
 
13)  OK, I’ll cut the pre & during WO carbs – sounds good.  But what do you mean observe the post workout response, and then cut/keep the post workout carbs accordingly?  What exactly should I be looking for in this observation?  How will I know to keep/cut them?
 
15)  LOL alright – so 30 cups a water a day will not hurt me?  Just didn’t want to do too much of a good thing ;)
 
 
 
I am working on going down your checklist right now.  Again, I will post the official diet/training/goals plans later tonight for your inspection!  Just wanted to get these questions cleared up first.  Thanks again so very much for all of your time here. 
<message edited by drastic on Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:30 PM>
Marc David

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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:57 AM
1) Can I or can’t I focus on effectively building muscle and losing weight at the same time? 

Marc's Response:  In your situation, your weight loss will come off at an increased pace.  Meaning, once you start to make nutritional changes and start exercising, you might lose 5 lbs a week!

Which for most is a concern as it might be muscle.

So those guidelines don't apply in your situation.  Your actual fat loss numbers could be higher than normal becuase you have more to lose.

Weight training is an integral part of burning fat.  It increases your metabolism to say the least.

What was meant in that book was that choose a goal.

In your case, the goal is to burn as much fat as possible.


I’ve always heard/been taught that weight training was the most effective method for burning fat.


ABSOLUTELY correct.

That means using weights as well.

It doesn't mean going to bulking diets and hitting the weights heavy to overload your muscles.  Worry about that later.  For now, just use weight training as a tool to prime your muscles, build some muscle and burn fat.

The goal is: To Burn Fat

That doesn't mean you can't build muscle during this time, but your emphasis won't be to maximize muscle gains.
 
2) At this point, I want to focus mainly on burning off all of the excess fat as my primary goal (i.e. lowering my BF%), and then I want to focus on building muscle and getting "cut" as my secondary goal.  However, if I can achieve both at the same time, I’d be most interested in that route of course.  What will the optimal diet for me for weight loss while sculpting consist of?  I had of course planned on following Dan’s advice for meals – lean protein, complex carb, fibrous carb, and fat.  I had planned on using the ratio of 25%p/45%c/30%f.  Would you alter this considering my current state?  Any other special customizations you’d recommend for a person in my situation?

Marc's Response:  Focus on burning fat.  That is in essense, cutting.  Getting ripped will come when you have an extremely low level of body fat.  Your primary goal of losing fat is for health reasons at this point. 

Most newbies try and do it all.

They want to:

* burn fat
* get hella ripped
* build muscle too
* have a six pack of abs

Ultimately they end up in the same place becuase they don't realize that each goal above requires different steps. 

Burn Fat!  You'll build some muscle.  You can get ripped later.

3) What supplements should I consider for weight loss while trying to build muscle as well?  I know a multi-vitamin is necessary.  Anything else?  I honestly do not mind putting forth some money on this if it is a solid, accepted supplement proven to give results in most cases.  What about creatine?  I know this will cause some weight gain as the body takes it in and gets to a certain level, but I’ve read that it will also help burn fat because it enhances the fat-burning machines (muscles).

Marc's Response:   A multi-vitamin is about it at this point.  Focus on real foods.  You've got a lot to change and you don't need to toss money at shake or other substances that won't help you reach your goals.  I'm a fan of protien shakes but I think at your stage, you need to get your protein from foods.

Shakes don't require your body to "work" to get at the caloires in them.  And while that's a great thing for most of us bodybuilder types, you need to burn as many calories as possible and keep your metabolism cooking.

Hence, if possible, just avoid shakes now and let the foods boost your metabolism.

Making the nutritional changes you have to make is a massive change in itself.

While there's some decent supplements out there... focus on whole foods.  No fat burning pills.  No meal replacements.

4) Can someone point me to a workout routine that would be good for me as far as losing weight?  I found countless workout routines posted for “gaining mass”… but obviously Im not really in that corner lol…  I’d like to find a routine/plan that incorporated both weights and cardio, naturally.

Marc's Response:  Check out the Evolution of Cardio by Craig Ballantyne.  His Turbulence Training workouts encourage quick workouts, supersets, and hit all the major muscle groups.  But they aren't your hardcore workouts for packing on slabs of muscle.  3 days a week, 60 minutes or less.  Perfect.

They are right up the alley for maximum fat burning!

Tom Venuto's Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle is another resource for such training programs

5) I know my weight training has to be intense in order to get results, but what exactly constitutes a "max" workout to a muscle grp?  Signs to look for?  In working out in the past, I would often get to a point where certain muscles that were being worked would “lock up” and basically just cramp (not painfully) up completely to where I couldn’t move them for a minute or so.  Is this what I should be aiming for at the end of my reps/sets?  Did I go too far, or is that the point where you know you’ve reached the stopping point and to let yourself heal up?

Marc's Response:  Just go for progression at this point.  Don't train to failure.  Each workout should be better than the last.  That means tracking your workouts. 

Give yourself time to get the mind to muscle link going.

Blasting your muscles to the point of failure all the time or where they cramp and lockup is not good. 

Remember, it's TRAINING for stimulation.  Not ripping them apart so it takes days to heal.

And it depends on the person right?

Muscle stimulation to me might be a brutal workout for you.

And Arnold's routine worked for him and it might kill me!

Focus on progressive workouts.  Just get a little better each time.

6) As for the above, should I try to achieve this “max intense” workout every time I plan to work that muscle grp?  If so, that would mean working out a muscle group approx. only once every 5-7 days or so, right? - since you need this time to rest and heal?

Marc's Response: Not necessarily.  Training to failure every workout is not necessary for muscle growth.  What you want to do is follow a professionally designed routine, about 3 days a week, for 60 minutes.

If it's a good program, you will have plenty of time for recovery.

You grow when you are out of the gym.  Not while you are in the gym.

Eating whole foods, resting, stretching, moving, will all lead to increased recovery.

7) And again, as for the above, how do you know when you've waited long enough between max workouts to work that muscle group again?  When the soreness is gone is it ok to go again or what?

Marc's Response:   Ah soreness.  That's just delayed onset muscle soreness or DOMS that some of us get.  When it's not sore, it's in no way fully healed.  A muscle takes anywhere between 5-7 days to fully recover.

How do you know?

A good program will have you wait about that long between workouts.

8) Nutrient partitioning agents?  I read a little about them today… are the a practical solution to aiding weight loss currently?  Can anyone give me some down to earth info on them?

Marc's Response:   There's studies going on with them but it's all related to diet drugs.  I didn't see any cold hard facts when looking this up.

Not to harp on this fact but you said...


weigh 435 lbs.  I have a body fat % of about 50-52%


Don't sweat the small stuff man.  Focus on nutrition and training.  No pills, powders, hardcore mags, latest research hype..

All these little tweaks people use are not of value to you right now.

Just changing your diet alone and exercising is going to be massive!

9) Is working out in the a.m. always best or does it matter?  I’ve always been taught that working out first thing in the morning (on an empty stomach, besides water) is best because it forces your body to burn what’s inside of it (glucose/glycogen) rather than food you’ve eaten that day.  I know Dan’s thread said that this offered only a slight advantage though.  So is it honestly not that big of a deal what time of day you work out?

Marc's Response:   Doesn't matter.  I'm going to let Craig Ballantyne take this one in his FAQ:

In general, there is no best time to workout. A guy that trains in the afternoon should get the same results as a guy that trains in the morning, all other things being equal (i.e. nutrition, workout intensity, etc.).

The two most important considerations for determining your workout time are that:
a) You are able to train with sufficient intensity
b) You are able to train consistently


10) Red meat or no?  I was planning on cutting red meat out of my diet in the future because of the supposed health benefits of doing so.  Is it worth doing this?  Will I be hindering myself by doing this in any way?  Sometimes I really wonder if the benefits of doing this actually justify doing it… thoughts?

Marc's Response:   Agree with Dan.  I limit my intake to 1-2 times a week with the leanest cuts I can.

Additional Resources:

1 - Burn the Fat Feed The Muscle:  If you don't have it.  Get it.  You said you were willing to spend money on supplements?  Save your money and buy the best damn book on nutritional immediately!

2- Rob Kottenbrock  My Blog A super inspiratinational guy who lost a ton of weight.  I really think he can help you as well.

Marc C. David
Support DB! Buy your supplements at Supplements101.com
drastic

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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:25 PM
Marc, just as with Dan, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to educate me.  Both of y'alls answers are so incredibly helpful.  I am very eager to learn and I assure you I soak up the advice like a sponge!

I completely agree that I need to focus on burning fat for a good long while - that has been my plan and goal all along since I started researching this.  I know that building major muscle mass will come down the road.

I do have a couple more questions that I'd like to get some answers to:

1)  I've read about "refeeding."  Apparently its a day where you eat the same food, but just more of it in order to supposedly restock your body with stuff that it may be missing due to a cut diet...  good idea or no?  Should I do this considering my state?

2)  As far as supplmentation goes, I went to GNC today (I live in a pretty small town, it's all we got) and picked up the following:

http://tinyurl.com/2d6gro (good EFA supplement or no?)
http://tinyurl.com/ysukjm (good multi or should I return it for a different kind with more or less of something?  Said it was rich in antioxidants...  do I need an additional source of them on top of this multi?)
http://tinyurl.com/2enlq2 (good pro-biotic supplement?)

Anything else I should think about getting now?  I had planned on buying whey and creatine once I get into heavy building (after fat burn).
 
3) The 3-day resistance training program that Dan recommended only allows for 48 hour rest periods before you should be back in the gym working the same muscle group.  This seems to directly contradict your advice of waiting 5-7 days for complete healing.  To be honest, your advice seems to make more sense than what the program suggests... but could you explain the rather differences here?

4) Duely noted on the gimmicks - I MUCH prefer to stick to plain old discipline and hard work rather than try the "latest & greatest" crap to hit the market ;)


Again man, thanks a ton!
<message edited by drastic on Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:26 PM>
danmirage

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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:29 PM
Nice post Marc!
danmirage

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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:39 PM
Small comment on TT and BFFM...I have perused both and while there are some significant informational fallacies in each, I feel they would still be effective for most people.
 
They are not "Single, Perfect, End-All" programs.  However, they represent a reasonable practice for most people.
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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:47 PM
1) I've read about "refeeding." Apparently its a day where you eat the same food, but just more of it in order to supposedly restock your body with stuff that it may be missing due to a cut diet... good idea or no? Should I do this considering my state?

Marc's Response:  More like Zig-Zag Method.  People talk about refeed days when they are on cutting cycles.  They get all excited because for a day or two they can eat at their maintenence levels.

This is a tactic that is used for people who are leaner and need extra steps to drop to the lowest levels of body fat.

In your case, I think just eating correctly and exercising is going to make drastic changes.

Adding more complexity to the issue using techniques that are more advanced is just going to add to frustration and focusing on the small stuff.

Once you are 10% body fat and are desperate to see the six pack, you can visit refeeding days, carb cycling and all that fun stuff.

Until then, forget about it for now.

2) As far as supplmentation goes, I went to GNC today (I live in a pretty small town, it's all we got) and picked up the following:

http://tinyurl.com/2d6gro (good EFA supplement or no?)
http://tinyurl.com/ysukjm (good multi or should I return it for a different kind with more or less of something? Said it was rich in antioxidants... do I need an additional source of them on top of this multi?)
http://tinyurl.com/2enlq2 (good pro-biotic supplement?)

Marc's Response:  You don't need anything at GNC right now.  Just get a decent multi-vitamin at Trader Joe's.  Visit SupplementWatch.com as they are quite helpful in viewing brands that are of higher quality at a reasonable cost.

When it come to supplements, everybody has an opinion.

Even multi-vitamins, I've seen a slew of articles trying to freak people out about absorption rates.

As if anybody truly has the money to research that correctly.

I can't comment on the specific brands.

Anything else I should think about getting now? I had planned on buying whey and creatine once I get into heavy building (after fat burn).

3) The 3-day resistance training program that Dan recommended only allows for 48 hour rest periods before you should be back in the gym working the same muscle group. This seems to directly contradict your advice of waiting 5-7 days for complete healing. To be honest, your advice seems to make more sense than what the program suggests... but could you explain the rather differences here?

Marc's Response:  It normally takes 5-7 days for a muscle to fully recover.  But that does depend on the program.

If you are doing a 3 day beginner's routine and not training to failure nor doing excessive reps and sets, then your recovery time can be quicker.

I was speaking more from a split routine where you blast a particular muscle group and move on.

In your case, or if you do Turbulence Training, your recovery time should be faster so you can workout more frequently.

There's 3 day full body routines that worked great for me when I first started.

The program really makes the difference in this case.

For example, if you were powerlifting, you might wait as long as 10+ days before doing a maximal lift again.

5-7 days is a good general range for muscular recovery given intense training efforts.

That may not apply in your case as I don't think you need to worry about split routines or programs that want you to go extremely intense from Day 1.

4) Duely noted on the gimmicks - I MUCH prefer to stick to plain old discipline and hard work rather than try the "latest & greatest" crap to hit the market

Marc's Response:   Good.  You'll save time, money and a lot of headaches.  Much like making money on the internet, people totally forget fundamentals and get all caught up in the latest tools, tips, techniques and widgets.  They forget that a little hardwork, followed by nutrition and rest is ultimately the way to go.

You can test out Creatine and all that fun stuff later.

After you have a good program going and your health improves.

Until then, you don't need 10,000 things influencing your progress.

Why?

Because you won't know what is working and what isn't. 

* Nutrition
* Training
* Supplementation (minimal in your case)

Get those areas straight.

Then you can expand upon each one.
Marc C. David
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danmirage

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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:56 PM

1)  I've read about "refeeding."  Apparently its a day where you eat the same food, but just more of it in order to supposedly restock your body with stuff that it may be missing due to a cut diet...  good idea or no?  Should I do this considering my state?

AS Marc notes, these are refinements that your should not  concern yourself until much later in the game.  You should not be starting with a severe cut diet if you want to see the optimal response, first get a good diet and get your hormones on track!


2)  As far as supplmentation goes, I went to GNC today (I live in a pretty small town, it's all we got) and picked up the following:

http://tinyurl.com/2d6gro (good EFA supplement or no?)
http://tinyurl.com/ysukjm (good multi or should I return it for a different kind with more or less of something?  Said it was rich in antioxidants...  do I need an additional source of them on top of this multi?)
http://tinyurl.com/2enlq2 (good pro-biotic supplement?)

Anything else I should think about getting now?  I had planned on buying whey and creatine once I get into heavy building (after fat burn).

Those look fine for now.
 
Pure whey or Essential Amino Acids for pre and post workout would be good to help preserve muscle.
 
Pure Creatine Monohydrate will help with workout intensity...any time you start it.
 
 

3) The 3-day resistance training program that Dan recommended only allows for 48 hour rest periods before you should be back in the gym working the same muscle group.  This seems to directly contradict your advice of waiting 5-7 days for complete healing.  To be honest, your advice seems to make more sense than what the program suggests... but could you explain the rather differences here?

As I said it has to do with volume/style.
Your muscle can recover in less time if you do not overtrain it.  The every 48 hour, full-body training trains you to recover faster and creates a higher training/recovery rate cycle.
 
Furthermore there are different optimal responses based on individual genetics, training history, etc.  You are going to explore these and discover what you respond best to!
 
You may start with 3-days full-body training a week, switch to a 2-day full-body split training a total of 4x per week, then switch to a 3-day full-body split training 5 or so days a week, then a 4-day split full-body training with 4-5 training days a week, then maybe a 5-day full-body routine....then back to a 4,3,2, 1 -day split again to create different types of progression...going either way on the progression above created intensity for you!
 
Progression is the name of the game to keep your body responding on an ongoing basis!
drastic

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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:15 PM
OK great - thx to both of you for the answers
 
I'm working on my meal plan, goals, training plan right now - i'll post them tonite for inspection.
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RE: Advice on DB topics for Severely Overweight ppl? Many questions... help! - Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:22 PM
Hey there Drastic,
 
First I would like to commend you on taking the time to read this info and wanting to make the life change, and not just "Diet" so you can fall all over again.
 
I know I will repeat alot of what has been said but I was 300LBS just over 13-14 months ago, and now have hit 205. Just like you I estimate I was around 40+% BF.... With the help of Dan, Marc, and Tom Venutos BFFM program I have learned alot of things, and am living proof that these concepts work wonders.
 
I admire you wont do the "No Carb" option again, those diets are dangerous and generally make you gain more weight when its all said and done.
 
1) Can I or can’t I focus on effectively building muscle and losing weight at the same time? 
 
I found found in my experience that I have been able to do both, BUT and that is a big but, I focused on loseing weight the entire time, yes I have a dream of being ripped, and just downright ripped, I know that will come someday, but I need to lose this fat first.....While lifting for the first few months you will notice huge "gains" basically the muscle you have will expand, hydrate, and learn to be used, so you will notice a significant difference, even if you dont gain "Lean mass" per say.
 
Dont let yourself get into the frame of mind that "well if I go over calories I will just gain muscle" that was a huge pitfal for me, and is where I quite often struggled to lose fat.... Remember, think fat loss now, with the eventual goal of beefcakeness, and you will go so much further.
 
#2 What will the optimal diet for me for weight loss while sculpting consist of? 
 
As others have said that is completely up to your body, but I can tell you that I moderated my carbs a bit more than others suggest here. Looking at your numbers I would in all honesty consider upping your proteins a bit, and lowering your fat. I found that somewhere in the ballpark of 47.5-50%/35/15 works well, fat doesnt make you fat at all, but fat is VERY dense in calories, and can be extremely easy to overdo if your not extremely careful. In all honeslty micronutrients are very important, but the single most important factor to get weight loss going is eat "whole foods" and have a moderate reduction of calories..... Weight loss will come exceptionally easy at first in your situation, as the weight loss slows that is when its extremely important to mess with micro nutrients.....
 
#3) What supplements should I consider for weight loss while trying to build muscle as well?
 
I have wasted a ton of money in this area, but I found a few things that just made me feel better.... A few must takes IMHO are a good multi, Fish oil, B Complex, and Magnesium/Potassium supp... these are all moderatly cheap, but the magnesium.potassium helped with bad cramps and pains I was getting from working out... No more middle of the night leg cramps for me ........ more important than any of these is water... you need well over 100 ounces a day.... nothing will stop fat loss, or make you not go to the gym than dehydration.... drink... even if you feel you dont need more, drink some more.... If you drink this much water over a period of 24 hours you wont need to worry about water overhydration.
 
#4) Can someone point me to a workout routine that would be good for me as far as losing weight?
 
Again, this is what worked for me, and the wife, but I started my nights with a good stretch, 5 minutes of cardio warmup (just to sweat) then lifted for about an hour and a half (keep in mind tag teaming with my wife... so 45 for 1)
 
The reps I found work well for a beginer, and kept me from feeling like quitting was a 12x10x8 progressive drop set... so you do as much weight as you can do 12 times.... add 2.5-5 or 10 pounds then do it 10 times... add a little bit more then 8 times....this not only helps you challenge yourself, but helps you break some great plateus....
 
As for group splits I so a push/ legs/ pull routine.... so a 3 day set, gives pleantly of recovery time... so day 1 is back, shoulders, biceps... day 2 is legs... legs legs... and day 3 is chest and triceps... I take a day or two, then start all over again....
 
5) I know my weight training has to be intense in order to get results, but what exactly constitutes a "max" workout to a muscle grp?  Signs to look for?
 
Im not the best person to answer this but mine is complete exhaustion... not pain... or burn, just no more go go juice left in the muscle...
 
7) And again, as for the above, how do you know when you've waited long enough between max workouts to work that muscle group again?
 
On my 3 day push pull I have 3 days between workouts of a specific muscle on 1 day off... with 2 days off you have 4 days... I am never sore on the 3rd day... well... almost ever...
 
9) Is working out in the a.m. always best or does it matter?
 
On weekdays I always workout from 5-7PM.... weekends (depending on how my 3 day rotation lands) I go in the morning.... I like working out in the morning better, but in reality I cant do weekday mornings... but fat loss is completely possibly begining or end of day.... dont fret about it... either way your in the gym.... that is the important part
 
10) Red meat or no?
 
Yes it is... but in alot of moderation... and very lean cuts, I stay with top sirloin, and 5-7 ounces per serving.... only do this a day or two a week..... its very easy to overdo calories with red meat..
 
11)  How much protein should I take in daily – conflicting figures…
 
Again your protein seems a bit low to me... but that is just me...  and as I am looking at this your calories seem extremely low.... I am 175 lbs of lean mass and am eating 2850 a day to lose.... which is a 18% reduction... when I was heavier I was eating upwards of 3000 a day...  my wife with 130 lbs of lean mass is at 2450 with a 19% reduction..... If your going to the gym 5 days a week you need to put yourself as moderatly active... With a higher calorie count, and a higher protein percentage you would need alot more...
 
14)  Dan’s article also says “Do not drop under BMR for daily calorie intake.”  Does this mean never ever?
 
The best rule here is never go more than 20% below your baseline intake to stay out of starvation... a good place to diet in is 15%-18%, that way you have room for some errors...
 
15)  Should I stick to the .55 ounces of water per lbs. of body weight figure? 
 
This number is better based off of your caloretic initake.. I would say that based on a 3K calorie a day diet you would need in the range of 100-150 oz a day....
 
 
 
 
As Marc said, if you dont have Brun the Fat Feed the Muscle, you should get it... this book has been life changing to me..... it explains everything to why most people fail, to how much water to drink.... but it isnt a "Here it is, 50/30/20 diet stick to this and you will win" it teaches