RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/1/2008 11:30:17 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
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You had a net loss.
If your routine is not changing, then you are in a caloric deficit.
If it is changing, then you have to look at if you are adding work or lowering workload.
What you can do, if you have the fat to burn, is go another week as is on the calories and really see how you do.
Next week you should lose weight again
More muscle = more calories burned.
More activity = more calories burned.
Next week bring up the carbs and let the protein ride as is.
The ratio should drop to around 25-ish.
Why?
This is to see what is going on!
How is your body responding?
That week you will gain some weight.
Then you will lose some weight.
But you want to see how it changes the weight you keep.
You may gain muscle while other weight fluctuates for about 2 weeks.
After that, you should look at your overall again.
You should know more than you do now.
Remember, you want to modulate ONE factor at a time and let the effects play out, to learn about how you really work.
(Don't expect to see understandable results if you change cardio, alter the exercise routine significantly, change sleep patterns, and change the diet...)
This is a short term understanding.
You will see things similar to this...from where you are now...
Raise carbs...weight goes up then down over 2 weeks..but overall gain muscle.
Raise balanced profile (20-25% protein - 45-50% carbs 25-30% fats) gain muscle ongoing week after week
Raise protein gain muscle for short term (two-four weeks) then gains stop. Then start losing.
quote:
well i would want to replair muscle but what im saying is wouldn't u need all the same calories as a day u would be working out minus the calories burned during exercise? i mean if ur eating the same on days off as workout days u would have an even bigger surplus on off days.
(i could be off here, im just trying to think logically based on what i know...but of course theres a good deal of the science i do not completely know)
I know you think it is logical based on what you know. But really, it is not.
First you have to eat for the cardio. It burns calories.
Second you have to eat for the recovery, it burns calories as if you were training for up to 48 hours.
Third, the body responds to variations in calories in...there are feedback mechanisms.
Unless you TRAIN the mechanisms to respond the way you want them to, they don't respond favorably most of the time.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/2/2008 6:00:17 AM
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David1991
Posts: 7890
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
You had a net loss.
If your routine is not changing, then you are in a caloric deficit.
If it is changing, then you have to look at if you are adding work or lowering workload.
What you can do, if you have the fat to burn, is go another week as is on the calories and really see how you do.
Next week you should lose weight again
More muscle = more calories burned.
More activity = more calories burned.
Next week bring up the carbs and let the protein ride as is.
The ratio should drop to around 25-ish.
Why?
This is to see what is going on!
How is your body responding?
That week you will gain some weight.
Then you will lose some weight.
But you want to see how it changes the weight you keep.
You may gain muscle while other weight fluctuates for about 2 weeks.
After that, you should look at your overall again.
ok so ur saying this week keep calories the same to see how i react and then next week (3/8-3/15) add carbs?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
You should know more than you do now.
Remember, you want to modulate ONE factor at a time and let the effects play out, to learn about how you really work.
(Don't expect to see understandable results if you change cardio, alter the exercise routine significantly, change sleep patterns, and change the diet...)
This is a short term understanding.
You will see things similar to this...from where you are now...
Raise carbs...weight goes up then down over 2 weeks..but overall gain muscle.
Raise balanced profile (20-25% protein - 45-50% carbs 25-30% fats) gain muscle ongoing week after week
Raise protein gain muscle for short term (two-four weeks) then gains stop. Then start losing.
ok well the only other factor changing would be the supersetting of antagonist muscle groups and adding 1.25-2.5% of the load, due to the parameters of C.W.'s routine.
now this carb raise is only to see how my body reacts right? but in general u should raise everything equally?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Third, the body responds to variations in calories in...there are feedback mechanisms.
Unless you TRAIN the mechanisms to respond the way you want them to, they don't respond favorably most of the time.
ok i'll keep them the same, u said the difference in pre run and pre workout (100 calories) isn't too much right? and then i guess i should still be having atleast the pre run food on off days too (1 scoop protein powder). i have not been doing that so there has been 190 calories less on completely off days than workout days
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/2/2008 9:33:50 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ok so ur saying this week keep calories the same to see how i react and then next week (3/8-3/15) add carbs?
It might be worth your while to see ow your body reacts.
If you lose muscle and gain fat right now...then you know you are below some nutrient needs somewhere and so the body is responding by catabolizing protein (for carbs, etc) and storing fat. Also if the change is a net loss, it will be good to help calculate an average caloric need.
Supersets may drive more calories out, but you will still see the trend.
quote:
now this carb raise is only to see how my body reacts right? but in general u should raise everything equally?
For the most part, yes.
Your protein is a bit high and carbs a bit low, so it is worth moving that to be more in the middle and see how your body responds. Also it gives you more rom to wiggle and control things later.
quote:
atleast the pre run food on off days too (1 scoop protein powder)
Not protein powder. On off days have food. Adjust your meals. The protein is for immediate availability pre and post workout, not to replace food.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/2/2008 10:48:23 AM
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David1991
Posts: 7890
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
quote:
ok so ur saying this week keep calories the same to see how i react and then next week (3/8-3/15) add carbs?
It might be worth your while to see ow your body reacts.
If you lose muscle and gain fat right now...then you know you are below some nutrient needs somewhere and so the body is responding by catabolizing protein (for carbs, etc) and storing fat. Also if the change is a net loss, it will be good to help calculate an average caloric need.
hmm, so basically this week is more of a "learning my body" week than getting results? do u think i'll even be seeing positive results this week since im progressing in training or is it more likely i'll be maintaining?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Supersets may drive more calories out, but you will still see the trend.
ok. man i just figured out the estimated time for tomorrows workout (3x5, 60 sec. rest, about 4020 tempo) which is usually within 1-5min. of how long it actually takes and my workout is only going to take about 18 min. tomorrow. it just seems so short even though it should be intense.
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
quote:
atleast the pre run food on off days too (1 scoop protein powder)
Not protein powder. On off days have food. Adjust your meals. The protein is for immediate availability pre and post workout, not to replace food.
ok so real food but still make up the 90 calories with a good whole protein source
i was thinking i might have some trouble seeing how i react because next fri-sun i'll be snowboarding in the poconos and originally (since im with my friend and his family) i was going to have 2 cheat days but i think i'll just try to bring my food except for maybe 1-3 meals with them. snowboarding will be adding activity though.
does it matter if i blend almost all of my food into a shake for the trip? as far as digestibility, insulin, and other factors go..
< Message edited by David1991 -- 3/2/2008 11:34:58 AM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/2/2008 4:44:36 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
hmm, so basically this week is more of a "learning my body" week than getting results? do u think i'll even be seeing positive results this week since im progressing in training or is it more likely i'll be maintaining?
You may still see modest muscle gains (.25 pounds) and maybe even more fat loss (1 pound or so).
quote:
ok. man i just figured out the estimated time for tomorrows workout (3x5, 60 sec. rest, about 4020 tempo) which is usually within 1-5min. of how long it actually takes and my workout is only going to take about 18 min. tomorrow. it just seems so short even though it should be intense.
Same work in less time = intensity
quote:
ok so real food but still make up the 90 calories with a good whole protein source
Not necessarily protein...balanced 25/45/30.
The protein is for pre/post workout.
Yes, you will need to eat more for the snowboarding...treat it as a workout with pre and post nutrition and carbs during if you go over 40 minutes.
Have fun. Eat!!
Depending on how far in advance you blend adn if it is in a cooler...but yes that works VERY well for many things.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/2/2008 6:18:40 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7890
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Yes, you will need to eat more for the snowboarding...treat it as a workout with pre and post nutrition and carbs during if you go over 40 minutes.
Have fun. Eat!!
well it will definitely be longer than 40 min, probably a few hours. i didn't think of it as a workout but it makes sense that it would burn a lot of calories overall so i'll have the pre/post workout food. i still stay at the 2990 calories though right? (well i guess 3040 since its a "workout" day and 2990 was the average b/w the 2 days)
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Depending on how far in advance you blend adn if it is in a cooler...but yes that works VERY well for many things.
well what i was planning on doing was blending all of my meals (except 2 dinners that i would have to have with the family, i'll keep it as healthy as i can though) for friday afternoon-sunday afternoon on thursday afternoon and friday before we left. i would keep them refrigerated before we leave but i cant fit 10-12 shakes in a cooler. i'll try to use their refrigerator i guess once we get there.
if i use eggs in my shakes would raw eggs be fine or should i cook them then blend them? (it would be 3 in one day)
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/2/2008 7:16:23 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
Status: offline
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Now you are starting to scare me...pre-blending 10-12 shakes?
Not a good plan.
I have a cooler with 2 preblended in it a day at the University and if I return one to the fridge and try to eat it the next day...it is vomit.
Better to eat food and go with an MRP that you can put in zip lock bags and shake up in your shaker with water, plus bars you can eat. Bring apples and celery sticks, plus all the other fruit and veggies you can.
I use Think Thin bars.
2 of those plus a veggie works.
20g protein per bar.
Sold at most Whole foods and Albertsons...
Don't worry about calories...it is ok to go over.
Just make sure you have food so you don't starve.
Focus on having fun.
You will be fine.
When you get back, just keep on your plan!
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/3/2008 3:43:44 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7890
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Now you are starting to scare me...pre-blending 10-12 shakes?
Not a good plan.
I have a cooler with 2 preblended in it a day at the University and if I return one to the fridge and try to eat it the next day...it is vomit.
Better to eat food and go with an MRP that you can put in zip lock bags and shake up in your shaker with water, plus bars you can eat. Bring apples and celery sticks, plus all the other fruit and veggies you can.
I use Think Thin bars.
2 of those plus a veggie works.
20g protein per bar.
Sold at most Whole foods and Albertsons...
Don't worry about calories...it is ok to go over.
Just make sure you have food so you don't starve.
Focus on having fun.
You will be fine.
When you get back, just keep on your plan!
hmm...thats a problem, whats wrong with just blending all the food and then just drinking it within 2.5 days? if its a matter of the taste i dont mind, but would it actually go bad in a day or 2? btw these wouldnt actually have protein powder in them except maybe 2 of them so if thats the reasons they might go bad its not a problem for most of them.
if i dont have the shakes i dont know how im going to eat other than cheating. i mean sure i can bring some fruit and things like that but most bars (which somehow i recently lost the few i had) have maltodextrin and sugar alcohols and for me to bring enough solid food to eat roughly 6 meals a day and enough calories just wouldn't be able to happen.
most of the food in the shake is normally ok at room temperature so idk why it would go bad except maybe for the fact that it will be in liquid. the bulk of the shakes would be include some or most of the following: Peanut butter, oatmeal, eggs/egg whites, and cottage cheese.
then that nasty one with eggs and yams lol
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/3/2008 6:29:13 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
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They ferment and do other things.
When you blend them, you make their constituent smaller and so they react faster.
3 days? I bring 12 zip lock bags with my custom MRP mix in it ready to mix in water. 12 think thin bars. (that is 18 meals!)
Or I make some fantastic protein cookies with 125 calories each at 25%p/45%c/30%f and plan eat a veggie or fruit with them. Gemember the GWAR bars or whatever they were called? You can bake up a batch in an hour and they don't need to be refrigerated for 4 days...4 of those gives you 500 calories. I make mine moist and flavorful...
(Then I eat all the pancakes, scrambled eggs, roast potato, pizza and chicken that everyone else eats!)
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/4/2008 5:58:48 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7890
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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im thinking in order to keep things simple i'll just make a big batch of bars for the whole day so they stay edible since they'll be cooked and should keep things simple
im thinking of just blending/mixing this all up into a badder and cooking it into 12 bars and having 2 per meal.
5.75 cups oats- 1725 calories, 57.5g protein, 310.5g carbs, 28.75g fat
4 scoops PP- 360 calories, 68g protein, 8g carbs, 6g carbs
16 egg whites- 275 calories, 57.6g protein, 3.9g carbs, 1g fat
7tbsp. Peanut butter- 700 calories, 31.5g protein, 21g carbs, 56g fat
Total; 3060 calories, 214.6g protein, 343.4g carbs, 91.75g fat = 3057.75
28.1%p 44.9%C 27%f
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/5/2008 12:02:51 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7890
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=346329
Lots of ideas..add some cinnamon!
how do those bars stick together without eggs? i thought eggs were needed to keep them from being mushy and/or falling apart
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
That looks like a lot of egg whites...are you sure about that amount? You want them to be eatable!
Remember consider 1 yolk per four 4 whites...dont lose those Omega 3s!
well like i said above, i thought they would be needed to keep it together
other than that does it look good for the day? would adding baking soda preserve it a little better?
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/6/2008 2:26:37 AM
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David1991
Posts: 7890
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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alright cool, so i have that for all of saturday, dinner with them and one shake on friday, and i guess i just i'll have to make some bars or something for sunday.
thanks for the advice, this will work better than 12 shakes lol
with those protein bars on bodybuilding.com though, how do they stick together? it seems like it would be really gooey and wouldn't actually cook
also is blending the oatmeal going to make it significantly higher GI even with all the other food? i'd rather blend it but i could see the problem with that
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/8/2008 8:29:23 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
Status: offline
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Don't WOORRRRY!
This is what you expected for this week.
This week was a wait and see experiment.
Remember the discussion on 3/1?
Why do we lose muscle? One reason is that we are burning more calories than we consume and the body wants to lower the caloric expenditure.
Do you recall me ever talking about skinny fat people and the effect of excessive cardio?
The people who ate too little and did lots of activity and burned off their muscle mass?
they burn lots of fat mass off too, after that. but they are sarcopenic...low lean mass ratio.
Anyway, you just learned that you are not eating enough to support more muscle.
It looks like you have been borderline and your body is still primed to consume protein readily.
Not unexpected because your carbs are still borderline a bit low for supporting all the activity you do as well as muscle growth demands, and the easy place the body can get instant carbs..is muscle. Two birds with one stone: lowers expenditure and converts proteins to glycogen.
Stop the stress. This IS the game of bodybuilding.
If it really stresses you then maybe it is not the right game.
You want to find a game that is exciting for you and relieves stress!
Try this. Put the scale and calipers away and train for fun for the next week after the trip.
Don't weigh in or take measurements or worry about anything but enjoying your training.
< Message edited by danmirage -- 3/8/2008 8:31:14 AM >
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/8/2008 9:07:29 AM
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David1991
Posts: 7890
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Don't WOORRRRY!
This is what you expected for this week.
This week was a wait and see experiment.
Remember the discussion on 3/1?
Why do we lose muscle? One reason is that we are burning more calories than we consume and the body wants to lower the caloric expenditure.
Do you recall me ever talking about skinny fat people and the effect of excessive cardio?
The people who ate too little and did lots of activity and burned off their muscle mass?
they burn lots of fat mass off too, after that. but they are sarcopenic...low lean mass ratio.
Anyway, you just learned that you are not eating enough to support more muscle.
It looks like you have been borderline and your body is still primed to consume protein readily.
Not unexpected because your carbs are still borderline a bit low for supporting all the activity you do as well as muscle growth demands, and the easy place the body can get instant carbs..is muscle. Two birds with one stone: lowers expenditure and converts proteins to glycogen.
well that does make sense
so u suggest i raise calories with mainly carbs this week or an even ratio? how many calories do u think i should raise?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Stop the stress. This IS the game of bodybuilding.
If it really stresses you then maybe it is not the right game.
You want to find a game that is exciting for you and relieves stress!
i dont think i could stop if i wanted to lol, i really do like it and like learning more about it...it's just that its mainly only fun when i'm improving myself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Try this. Put the scale and calipers away and train for fun for the next week after the trip.
Don't weigh in or take measurements or worry about anything but enjoying your training.
funny u should mention that, i was actually thinking in the last week "since ive only gotten good results the 2 weeks i changed things up alot, like diet and my routine, what would happen if i just went into the gym 3 days a week and trained how i wanted to that day, just picking a weight with the appropriate sets per whatever good exercise i chose and doing how many reps i felt like"
but for now don't u think it would be best to continue with the routine by C.W.? i feel like ive been jumping back and forth between stuff routines lately ( from 3 day split, to 3 day full body, to C.W.'s routine all in about 4-5 weeks) and that i should stay consistent with it since i just started this routine.
by the way i start tennis on monday so i'm going to drop the HIIT and just have tennis as my cardio...which im sure over 5 practices per week will burn more than 3 HIIT sessions so that might be important for how much i should raise calories/carbs
(and snowboarding trip had a last min. cancellation)
(in reply to danmirage)
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