RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 4:23:33 PM
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danmirage
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quote:
i know its from hst and i read through all of it. i guess i wasn't considering that it had to start at 15 since i was already doing lower reps than that and i was planning on following the principles except starting lower, clearly thats not a good idea lol.
Well, its not that it is a good idea or not..but as I was stating earlier...the HST program is a program. So if you are borrowing ideas from it, then you are not doing HST.
It is good to borrow and learn to create your own progressions...but to learn how something works, you nedd to learn from observing it in its entirety to see the full dynamic. Chopping it up dilutes the dynamic and then it is something else. The effects and dynamic will be different.
Many programs have components that are grouped and simultaneously cross-modulated for a specific effect.
Duration/progression/pairings of movements/intensity/frequency/micro-modulations/amplitudes/accelerations/etc
Chop one of those out and use it alone and it is something different with a very different result.
Many people do this and still say, "I did x..."
Really, they experimented with something they created on their own.
That's ok. Just don't confuse the two.
"I took one component from program X and did it by itself."
...is more accurate.
In fact your goal is to amass a huge toolbox of skills that YOU can simultaneously cross-modulate for ongoing results!
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(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 4:31:04 PM
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David1991
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ok i get what your saying. Also i have dont HST before and liked it, i guess i meant i was going to follow certain principles from it. but yea ur right its not like i would actually be following "hst", just some principles. i was planning on actually following it completely after the 6-rep cycle for 2 weeks. i was going to take a week off and start at the top but i think i'll begin the 3-day routine first and go from there.
jw though, if i continue(d) with the 6-rep range idea for the next 2 weeks adding 2.5-5lb. each workout to each lift would that still be good in ur opinion or do u think its better to start at the higher rep range and go down?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Note that the rest length is INCREASING.
This is paired with the resistance INCREASING.
This is not a mistake.
wait so ur saying the weight is supposed to go up that much each workout even with the rep changes??
Workout 1
Sets: 3
Reps: 5
Rest: 60 seconds between sets
Load: Choose a weight that forces you to near-failure for the last rep of the last set.*
*This is the recommended load for all workouts.
Workout 2
Sets: 3
Reps: 8
Rest: 90 seconds between sets
Workout 3
sets: 2
Reps: 15
Rest: 120 seconds between sets
Now i'd say i can deadlift 240lb. for 3x5 ending probably near failure on the last set. i know i cant do 3x8 for 240 (because i actually tried 235 a few weeks ago and couldnt for 3x8) and theres no way i could do 2x15 with 245, not even close.
i could see the increased rest time allowing the same amount of reps with a heavier weight but i would not be able to do a heavier weight 2x15 than i did with 3x5, no where near it. also considering the fact that he only reccomends failure/near failure on the last set.
i'll follow what u said and go through the routine for the next 6-8 weeks, take a break (because after 8 weeks it will be 13 weeks without a break which is too long usually), and then do hst if i dont have to cut by then.
but im still not sure what to do about this loading principle with the program.
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/24/2008 4:53:23 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 5:02:13 PM
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danmirage
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Now you are back to discussin increasing weight as a progression?
As I keep saying, by itself that is not really a key progression because it is a limited quantity unless you use it in a specific matrix.
It is a strength progression, but again, not optimally effective alone.
Try this, look at the layout of all the variables in HST and try to say what all the various intensity progressions are.
For instance, why start at such high reps? (Other than the research behind it.)
Is starting at high reps a progression? What else happens with the high reps to make it not a solo intensity progression but part of a cross-modulated intensity progression?
The subsequent workout would be week 2 or, if you are beat doing the antagonist training, week 3.
You pair like training. (5-rep, 8-rep, 15 rep)
Example
Week 1
5 rep weight 210
8 rep weight 180
15 rep weight 145
week 2
5 rep weight 220
8 rep weight 190
15 rep weight 150
Week 3
5 rep weight 230
8 rep weight 200
15 rep weight 155
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(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 5:16:25 PM
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David1991
Posts: 8789
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Now you are back to discussin increasing weight as a progression?
As I keep saying, by itself that is not really a key progression because it is a limited quantity unless you use it in a specific matrix.
It is a strength progression, but again, not optimally effective alone.
well actually thats why i was wondering why u considered hst to be a good program. from what i can tell the only 2 variables changing throughout the program are weight increasing each workout and reps decreasing every 2 weeks. if weight alone isnt a good progression and no other variable changes workout to workout, i cant see why it would be considered good.
they do say u can change exercises back and forth but if i recall correctly it's not a necessary part of the program (but knowing what i do know its probably something one should implement as part of the program)
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
The subsequent workout would be week 2 or, if you are beat doing the antagonist training, week 3.
You pair like training. (5-rep, 8-rep, 15 rep)
Example
Week 1
5 rep weight 210
8 rep weight 180
15 rep weight 145
week 2
5 rep weight 220
8 rep weight 190
15 rep weight 150
Week 3
5 rep weight 230
8 rep weight 200
15 rep weight 155
thats what i was getting at originally, that it wasn't each workout it was the next workout of the same rep range. okay that definately makes more sense. i dont think the weight increases would be that much but i get the point.
ok well that clears that up, i'll begin with workout 1 tuesday.
for the antagonist workouts it would be like
chest, rest, back, rest, etc...right?
not supersetting like chest, back, rest, etc....?
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 5:55:17 PM
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danmirage
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quote:
ok well that clears that up, i'll begin with workout 1 tuesday.
for the antagonist workouts it would be like
chest, rest, back, rest, etc...right?
not supersetting like chest, back, rest, etc....?
Remember you are looking for a progression in intesnity, supersetting them is one way to do that.
In efect it makes you double the work per unit time without changeing other variables. Nifty tool.
Alternating them gives the muscle LOTS of rest.
HST has more variations in it than that.
You are missing some things.
More advanced people have more variations they can add.
For a beginner, just varying the 4 basic variables is loads of progression.
Then the advanced person can modify multiple groupings of variables.
_____________________________
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http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 6:26:40 PM
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David1991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
quote:
ok well that clears that up, i'll begin with workout 1 tuesday.
for the antagonist workouts it would be like
chest, rest, back, rest, etc...right?
not supersetting like chest, back, rest, etc....?
Remember you are looking for a progression in intesnity, supersetting them is one way to do that.
In efect it makes you double the work per unit time without changeing other variables. Nifty tool.
Alternating them gives the muscle LOTS of rest.
right, so he's suggesting to superset them together as a bigger form of progression? or is that just what u suggest i do? (either way if its what u or he reccomends i'll do it)
and then i assume u dont have any supersets the next week....
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
HST has more variations in it than that.
You are missing some things.
More advanced people have more variations they can add.
For a beginner, just varying the 4 basic variables is loads of progression.
Then the advanced person can modify multiple groupings of variables.
really? what else am i missing? i see the rep changes, and the weight going up. theres the option of changing exercises. thats all i see. he mentions "strategic deconditioning" but i dont think thats a progression so much since its just a week off so u can start gaining again.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/25/2008 12:42:51 PM
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David1991
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the more i look at it the more i see this is actually a very similar routine to alwyn cosgrove's NROL routine, except NROL is a split routine. maybe that would be a good thing to transition to right after the 8 weeks of this routine.
I dont know if it matters but it seems strange that the rest time increases as the reps increase, usually the lower the reps the longer the rest time is.
also it seems wierd that in week 3-4 he has u doing 4x8 for some, yet by week 5 ur doing 2x8. some other factors change but not much
i guess i will be supersetting when i do the alternate muscle groups and go back to not supersetting when i do the odd weeks.
question: for pairing antagonist muscles what if there is no antagonist? as in i do squats, bench, row, military press, curl, tri extension. obviously back/chest and bi/tri. but do i put squats and military press together?
i figured out how to work each muscle by switching them around each workout (the smaller ones anyway) so im creating more variance with the muscles and exercises but like i said idk how im supposed to pair the supersets when they dont have the antagonist muscle being worked
for his example "For instance, perform quads/hams, chest/back, and biceps/triceps exercise pairings for the recommended sets and reps" he actually uses 3 compound movements and 3 single joint exercises (hams, bi's, tri's), going against what he says to do.
and do u suggest i change exercises for each rep range? it seems like it would give more variance and work different fibers.(lol sry, as im making the routines im thinking of more questions)
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/25/2008 4:03:03 PM >
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/25/2008 6:47:54 PM
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danmirage
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Naturally, if no ideal antagonsit is in your plan (quads-hams/Back-chest/Bi-Tri, etc)...then use something convenient to you is fine.
He was giving examples. you have to look at your program and group all the agonists, then do your best with the rest.
quote:
in week 3-4 he has u doing 4x8 for some, yet by week 5 ur doing 2x8. some other factors change but not much
Sounds like you are calling the multiple variations "not much."
Learn to look for the progressions. Seeing them and knowing the value is important.
Try making a chart and charting rest interval, pace, exercise, sets, reps, resistance, time, intensity variations, etc from day to day
It will say something like: down UP / changed UP / Down / Up / Down / change to Superset ...etc
And then you can see soem of the ongoing progressions...though I hear that you do not quite gras it all yet.
I don't know NROL but he tends to plan continuous progressions.
Oh, change exercises as he recommends...
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(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/26/2008 2:13:06 AM
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David1991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Oh, change exercises as he recommends...
4) Constantly rotate exercises from each category. In other words, don’t always start your session with a chest/back pairing. You must keep rotating the body parts and exercises you begin each session with.
"Don’t perform the same exercise for more than two weeks in a row. For example, if you performed a flat barbell bench press as your chest exercise for Weeks 1 and 2, you must switch to either incline, decline or dumbbell bench presses for another two weeks before switching again."
8) Be creative! I’m giving you endless options. Just be sure to pick four compound exercises and two single-joint exercises with each session. You can rotate exercises as much as you desire. All you have to do is follow the prescribed parameters.
In the second one of them he says dont perform it for more than 2 weeks, in the first he says u must keep rotating exercises, in the 3rd one he says u can rotate exercises as much as u want.
however he also says in the second one "if you performed a flat barbell bench press as your chest exercise for Weeks 1 and 2, you must switch to either incline, decline or dumbbell bench presses for another two weeks before switching again."
so im getting mixed things there. is it okay to do pull ups and dips today (cause i know i can atleast do 3x5 for them but not 3x8 or 3x15) and then bench and row thursday and saturday? i would think it would give more variety which he talks about being key and also i cant see why it would matter since rep ranges change anyway
edit: also i was planning on switching between sumo DL once a week (lowest reps) and squats twice a week since he says to only do 4 big compound exercises and each work legs and lower back (but to different degrees of course)
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/26/2008 2:17:40 AM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/26/2008 7:20:22 AM
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danmirage
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#4 = Dont START each session with the same bodypart, change what you work first. Legs, back, chest...rotate the first thing worked.
#8+ = Change exercises as much as you like, but at a minimum, dont do the same thing for more than 2 weeks.
think about it...Are pull ups and dips on his exercise list....
His set/rep ranges are not just random changes. They have specific functions, so if you alter the rep range you alter the program.
Nobody does it perfectly, but stick to it as closely as you can.
You should understand that Chad has a very deep understanding of how the body works from years of study and application, and is manipulating on a number of subtle and effective levels
< Message edited by danmirage -- 2/26/2008 7:23:00 AM >
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(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/26/2008 8:03:34 AM
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David1991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
#4 = Dont START each session with the same bodypart, change what you work first. Legs, back, chest...rotate the first thing worked.
ok i thought that might be what he was trying to say
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
#8+ = Change exercises as much as you like, but at a minimum, dont do the same thing for more than 2 weeks.
ok good, that works out well then
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
think about it...Are pull ups and dips on his exercise list....
His set/rep ranges are not just random changes. They have specific functions, so if you alter the rep range you alter the program.
Nobody does it perfectly, but stick to it as closely as you can.
well both of those exercises are on the list, and i wasnt planning on changing any of the reps or sets he laid out so it looks like im good there.
i did the first workout today, i liked it a lot actually...short though but i dont have a problem with that
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/1/2008 5:11:55 AM
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David1991
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according to my calipers i lost 1.1lb. of fat and gained 0.4lb. of muscle.
im happy about that of course, now i have to decide what to do with that. last time i was in this situation i added calories (260) and i gained 1.8lb. of fat and lost .3lb. of fat that week. so that was of course bad but im trying to gain muscle meaning i need to gain weight in general to a point.
i think its also important to note that the last 2 times i gained muscle and lost fat was when 1. i changed to the higher carb ratio's u recommended and switched to the short HIIT sessions and 2. this week i added 1 min. to 2 of the HIIT sessions since i gained fat last week and replaced the 3rd HIIT session with about an hour of moderate-low intensity tennis with my friend
based on my results and past few weeks results do u recommend i stay exactly where i am with cardio and calories and just progress with the routine or do u think it would be smart to add cardio for fat loss stimulus or maybe add calories for increased muscle gain (hopefully) or even both to be more active with higher calories? or possibly (i think this would be a good idea but let me know) just add maybe 150 calories on workout days or something
< Message edited by David1991 -- 3/1/2008 8:05:57 AM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/1/2008 8:25:58 AM
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danmirage
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If your goal is to Gain Muscle, then overall you should not be pursuing a fat loss goal at the same time.
Your decisions should be based on your main goal. As you see, you can tweak the program any time to prime fat loss.
Fat loss and muscle gain, as you may recall from Dan Gastelu's talks, involve different chemical pathways that are not entirely compatible.
If half your efforts are always directed toward stimulating fat loss, then you are not in an optimal muscle gaining position.
So you moved into a fat loss microcycle and lost 1 pound fat and gained .4 pounds muscle. That is fairly optimal for a fat loss cycle and difficult for most people.
Did you keep your calories up since that caloric rise --> "last time i was in this situation i added calories (260)"?
You can do less cardio and effectively have more calories for gaining mass...
Then when you have gained more muscle you can bump the calories up and if your fat rises, repeat the cycle...
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/1/2008 8:48:07 AM
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David1991
Posts: 8789
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From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
If your goal is to Gain Muscle, then overall you should not be pursuing a fat loss goal at the same time.
Your decisions should be based on your main goal. As you see, you can tweak the program any time to prime fat loss.
Fat loss and muscle gain, as you may recall from Dan Gastelu's talks, involve different chemical pathways that are not entirely compatible.
If half your efforts are always directed toward stimulating fat loss, then you are not in an optimal muscle gaining position.
So you moved into a fat loss microcycle and lost 1 pound fat and gained .4 pounds muscle. That is fairly optimal for a fat loss cycle and difficult for most people.
ok well my main goal is definitely to gain muscle however i want to keep fat as low as possible and am not really ok with gaining an equal amount of fat as muscle (or more)
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Did you keep your calories up since that caloric rise --> "last time i was in this situation i added calories (260)"?
yes i added the 260 calorie and gained the 1.8lb. of fat while losing .3lb. of muscle. the the following week (this last week) i kept the calories the same and added the 1 min. to the 2 HIIT sessions and replaced one with tennis with my friend.
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
You can do less cardio and effectively have more calories for gaining mass...
Then when you have gained more muscle you can bump the calories up and if your fat rises, repeat the cycle...
ok well im not sure about taking away cardio because essentially im just giving myself more calories on the days im taking away the cardio, when the extra calories aren't needed as much. also it seems like adding even that little bit helped with the fat this week (could be other factors, im not completely sure).
wouldn't it make more sense to add maybe 150 calories or so on my workout days so i have more when i need them more?
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/1/2008 9:27:02 AM
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danmirage
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It is a mistake, when focused on muscle gain, to think you need fewer calories on off days. What do you think happens when the body has 2500 calories and then only has 2250? Essential tasks continue and non-essential tasks are delayed. Building muscle is non-essential, fat storage is an essential task...in the body sense of survival. If your body adapts to the 2250 level, what do you think it does with the extra 250 calories every other day?
Give it the same energy every day and give it all the nutrients every meal. Allow your body to be in a steady state so it is not adjusting to caloric and nutrient changes all the time (you can modulate them on occasion to tweak from the steady baseline.)
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http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
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Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/1/2008 10:14:21 AM
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David1991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
It is a mistake, when focused on muscle gain, to think you need fewer calories on off days. What do you think happens when the body has 2500 calories and then only has 2250? Essential tasks continue and non-essential tasks are delayed. Building muscle is non-essential, fat storage is an essential task...in the body sense of survival. If your body adapts to the 2250 level, what do you think it does with the extra 250 calories every other day?
Give it the same energy every day and give it all the nutrients every meal. Allow your body to be in a steady state so it is not adjusting to caloric and nutrient changes all the time (you can modulate them on occasion to tweak from the steady baseline.)
normally there is a 100 calorie difference though between workout and non-workout days because of the pre-workout carbs (whereas i just have protein pre-cardio and no "pre anything" on days i do no cardio which is once a week so that day is 190 calories less than workout days, 90 less than cardio days), is that too much? 100 calories doesn't seem like a huge difference and i am using the carbs in my workout for the most part
anyway though ur explanation is helpful to know, so i will keep the calories close to the same on all days. considering my weight loss though but also slight muscle gain what do u suggest i do with my calories? they're currently at
TOTALS: 2991.75 calories, 220.045g protein, 335.05g carbs, 92.715g fat
28.81% protein 43.87% carbs 27.32% fat
..
< Message edited by David1991 -- 3/1/2008 11:47:09 AM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/1/2008 12:04:41 PM
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David1991
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also along with that last question i was thinking about what u said about keeping calories the same even on off days so u have enough for muscle growth.
but wouldn't u still need less calories for that day anyway becuase u wouldn't have burnt the calories during weightlifting?
for example
weight lifting days: need calories for all bodily tasks + calories burned during exercise
off days: need calories for all bodily tasks
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/1/2008 12:11:13 PM
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danmirage
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quote:
ORIGINAL: David1991
also along with that last question i was thinking about what u said about keeping calories the same even on off days so u have enough for muscle growth.
but wouldn't u still need less calories for that day anyway becuase u wouldn't have burnt the calories during weightlifting?
for example
weight lifting days: need calories for all bodily tasks + calories burned during exercise
off days: need calories for all bodily tasks
Think about these ideas...
Is your goal to repair muscle or maintain a steady weight?
Do you think muscle repair requires an ongoing (24 hour) energy expenditure?
_____________________________
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Primers:
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Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 3/1/2008 12:19:13 PM
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David1991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Think about these ideas...
Is your goal to repair muscle or maintain a steady weight?
Do you think muscle repair requires an ongoing (24 hour) energy expenditure?
well i would want to replair muscle but what im saying is wouldn't u need all the same calories as a day u would be working out minus the calories burned during exercise? i mean if ur eating the same on days off as workout days u would have an even bigger surplus on off days.
(i could be off here, im just trying to think logically based on what i know...but of course theres a good deal of the science i do not completely know)
also since today would be day 1 of the new week as far as my weigh ins/measurements taken goes do u think i should raise the calories again keeping macro ratio's the same(close to 25-30p/45c/25-30f)? if so, how much? i want to make sure the same thing as 2 weeks ago doesn't happen (gain fat, lose muscle when i added even 250 calories).
< Message edited by David1991 -- 3/1/2008 12:21:32 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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