RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 3:35:15 PM
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David1991
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
There are times when you may go past 4...different routines you can throw in...a drop set for chest, pyramids for back, max power for deaedlifts...All different forms of progression.
Remember to think cyclic..there are Large cycles (Strength, Hypertrophy, Cutting) and smaller cycles within those larger cycles (Strength, Strength-hypertrophy, hypertrophy TypeII, hypertrophy type I, Power, cutting, etc.), and smaller cycles within those (Frequency, type, pace, rest, volume, and intensity variations)...
ok, i like how its broken up into all the cycles, that makes it pretty easy to see how u could continually change things
but just to be clear about the splitting. i plan to do full body for awhile, changing reps, and doing other forms of progression and eventually getting to 3-4 sets per muscle group (unfortunately at the moment i have to keep it under 45min.
now once i get to those 3-4 sets per muscle group and switch to an upper/lower split i still shouldnt go over 4 sets per muscle (except for the occasional times like dropsets and the other examples u gave) even though its more rest between the same workouts right?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
The overall annual trend was in the way of gains. I could gain indefinitely for the most part if I set my mind to it. Naturally, the closer you get to an assumed genetic peak, the slower the gains...but we rarely ever get near that genetic peak because as we progress it progresses!
thats cool, i often hear people talking about there "genetic limit" being so low and i think they're wrong about it most of the time.
how big do u think u could get naturally? (while staling fairly lean)
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 3:55:12 PM
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danmirage
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Hard to say. The more mass I put on the more I realize I could just keep going.
250 looks easy at 10% BF
275 might be pretty thick at 10%
300...would be a monster at 10%
quote:
even though its more rest between the same workouts right?
changing to a split implies that overall the work you are doing is more. The nervouse system has to recover from that work.
At the same time, when you break it up, your workout might start much shorter = More recovery!
Over time you have lots of opportunity to train harder.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 4:22:08 PM
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David1991
Posts: 5170
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
changing to a split implies that overall the work you are doing is more. The nervouse system has to recover from that work.
At the same time, when you break it up, your workout might start much shorter = More recovery!
Over time you have lots of opportunity to train harder.
well thats what im saying, i would think that by splitting it it would allow u to train harder but wouldnt that mean u could/should add more sets? i mean theres the forms of progression we talked about but as u said that doesn't always mean it will be harder and i would think even though u start with only 4 sets per muscle when starting the split u could (and should) go up to about 6 sets if ur doing the same upper/lower 2x a week
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Hard to say. The more mass I put on the more I realize I could just keep going.
250 looks easy at 10% BF
275 might be pretty thick at 10%
300...would be a monster at 10%
wow u really think u could get to 300lb. at 10% bf?? that would be crazy, isn't that about what ronnie and jay are at around off season though? i would think u'd need steroids and amazing genetics to get to that point
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 4:37:11 PM
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danmirage
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I said 250 would be easy....I don't know about the others. Probably just a matter of aplying the time/training/diet/recovery.
Well, that adding sets thing is what screws lots of people.
If it is not clear how to progress without it, go back and read the conversation all over again...
If you add one more set...as a progression, that should represent a HUGE degree of prorgession and tons of progress already under the bridge. You should have milked every single ounce of growth.
There is a limit beyond which you are simply not doing positive things for your growth. It is best to keep that limit further away, the area of dimished returns is not where you want to train. It is where many many people train.
Looking at the gains I had, at my age, with over 7 years off..with such miniscule training...you should get some idea that maybe it does not take TONs of training to see edequate progress. In fact it does not.
However, most people possess a very narrow set of tools with which to increase intensity and progressio over time...and so they simply use volume...and they get nowhere fast.
Use volume as the most precious and sparing tool. While it has the ability to give great short term gains and so should be cycled, it has the ability to shut gains down to a trickle.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 5:14:27 PM
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David1991
Posts: 5170
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ok, i totally get what ur saying about the whole "less is often more" concept. the only thing i guess im wondering is lets just say u get to 4 sets per muscle group 3x a week (full body).
now u switch to an upper/lower split and are still doing 4 sets per muscle group. but now ur only doing it 2x a week for each muscle. since reps, tempo, rest, etc... will only be making those smaller progressions wouldn't this large decrease in overall volume be bad?
u mentioned you'd be able to train harder, do u mean because ur getting more rest between workouts once u split it? i looked in ur journal and it seems like thats the basic principle when u switched to a split and still made progress
i mean i understand what to do at this point, i would just like to fully understand that particular part of the concept.
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/21/2008 5:18:07 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 8:44:17 PM
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danmirage
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More rest means more recovery of very important growth factors.
Harder training means stimulation of very important growth factors.
So, whenever you change the routine to allow harder training (since your time is effectively less, you tend to work with greater intensity) and more recovery...you tap these two concepts.
On the flip side you also want to change the routine to include more training cycles in a week to maximise the recovery cycles..
Last comment here is that some people respond more to more rest and others respond to more training frequency....so there is no one perfect solution for everyone. You shift along this continuum of responding to more rest, or more intensity, or more training over time.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/23/2008 4:39:16 AM
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David1991
Posts: 5170
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From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
You gained muscle.
You gained weight.
So calories are fine.
actually....i just took measurements and weight today and since its a full week from last week its the one i take down for results.
i've gained 1.8lb. of fat and lost .3lb. of muscle.......
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
You are abviously still settling.
Go another week and see.
It is not simple to get things under control at first.
Don't sweat it. Just keep going forward.
yea im trying to stay motivated and keep pushing but its hard when it just keeps getting worse like this, i mean compared to 5 weeks ago i have almost 4lb. more fat and 1lb less muscle.
todays workout im gonna switch to the 6-8 rep range since ive been doing around 9-12 for 2 weeks. hopefully the change will be good (except since i was going to failure those 9-12 reps sometimes would drop as low as 6 anyway so idk if the change will be that drastic)
Also, do u feel programs that start at a lower weight and build up to ur rep max over the course of 6 full body workouts (2 weeks, like HST) are bad? and if so why? i see that common "theme" with a lot of hypertrophy routines.
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/23/2008 7:09:57 AM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/23/2008 8:39:20 AM
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danmirage
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HST changes multiple variables per workout and has a specific recovery and specific cycle concepts within it (if done as intended.)
That is the general description of a Well designed routine.
HST and 3-days a week are routines I list in the gaining mass thread because they demonstrate this multi-variable manipulation concept.
There are unlimited ways to manipulate this.
You should be very clear that your immediate caliper measuerments DO NOT MEAN YOU GAINED OR LOST muscle or fat.
They are simply for comparative measurements.
gained 1.78lb. of fat and gained .22lb (gain 2 pounds)
to
gained 1.8lb. of fat and lost .3lb (gain 1.5 pounds)
So you think in one day you lost .5 pounds?
The point here is that in these last weeks have you been on a new diet?
Didn't I tell you that you needed to no worry about the specifics that you see because your body was goign to be all over the place?
You say in 5 weeks you gained 4lb. fat and lost 1lb muscle.
You are still gaining weight.
So changing your routine makes sense.
Look at your recovery, look at the quality of your training.
Also look at your diet to see if it is "dirty" somewhere important.
Are you gettting enough vegetables?
Finally stop worrying so much. Muscles gain fast enough. If you are only down a pound, then that is 4 days of good training/recovery. It is nothing. 4 pounds of fat is also just 2-3 weeks of goods training.
You have had a week off of training in the last 10 weeks?
I forget...
IF the trend continues, I would alter the routine in a larger way.
Such as doing this every other week
Back/chest/bi/tri/shoulder/quad/ham/calf
For 12-15 reps t-day 1 / then 9-12 reps t-day 2/ then 4-8 reps t-day 3
Major movements. One exercise per bodypart 3 sets. Different movements each day.
Interspersed with something different. That varies as well.
Have you looked at the 3-day training to see how it changes from day to day and week to week?
It is a good example of simple multi-variable manipulations.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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David1991
Posts: 5170
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From: New Jersey
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[Awaiting Approval]
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/23/2008 11:37:34 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6023
Joined: 11/20/2005
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HST you need to read the instructions very carefully.
If your results are stagnated, you want to change things up because what you are doing may not be right for stimulating a response.
you should note that the first 4 weeks of any new progression may not be ideal...
Lots of people jump from progression to progression before really seeing any results.
Remember, your body was primed for protein wasting.
You need to keep your mind positive to keep the "bad" hormones away!
How is your energy, focus, training intensity, mood, sleep?
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/23/2008 12:22:13 PM
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David1991
Posts: 5170
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
HST you need to read the instructions very carefully.
If your results are stagnated, you want to change things up because what you are doing may not be right for stimulating a response.
you should note that the first 4 weeks of any new progression may not be ideal...
Lots of people jump from progression to progression before really seeing any results.
yea i think that could be a problem, i was too quick to thing about starting different routines. i wasn't thinking clearly about sticking to a routine for a long time because i kept hearing more and more about how one should change often.
basically what i did today for my workout was what was going to be the first of a "6 rep cycle" of HST training principles for 2 weeks. so each muscle was basically 2x6 or 3x6 and i was going to add 2.5-5lb. the next 5 workouts along with tempo changes.
at this point would u reccomend me starting the 3-day routine by chad waterbury on tuesday or continuing with the 6 rep range HST then taking a week off (if necessary) and starting up again with hst at 15 reps?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
How is your energy, focus, training intensity, mood, sleep?
energy: normal, ive been taking naps most days if i got tired
focus: good
training intensity: pretty high
mood: fine except when i think about spanish class lol
sleep: usually about 7.5 hours a night and then the occasional nap
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 6:19:05 AM
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David1991
Posts: 5170
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From: New Jersey
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thinking back about it i could be stressed more than that since im constantly thinking about bodybuilding, my results, etc...idk if thats necessarily a bad thing though.
anyway so i workout again tuesday
"basically what i did yesterday for my workout was what was going to be the first of a "6 rep cycle" of HST training principles for 2 weeks (so it was considerably light since it was the first one). each muscle was basically 2x6 or 3x6 and i was going to add 2.5-5lb. the next 5 workouts along with tempo changes.
at this point would u reccomend me starting the 3-day routine by chad waterbury on tuesday or continuing with the 6 rep range HST then taking a week off (if necessary) and starting up again with hst at 15 reps?"
oh and also
2. "6) Increase the load 1.25 to 2.5% with each subsequent workout."
what exactly does he mean by that? im sure he doesn't mean the workout right after the one before because the reps often go up and if ur going to failure with 3x8 at a certain weight u wouldnt be able to increase weight for 3x12 2 days later
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 8:21:47 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6023
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
2. "6) Increase the load 1.25 to 2.5% with each subsequent workout."
You need to read the whole thing. you seem to have missed all the important information, such as how th whole program is structured:
• Repetitions will decrease every 2 weeks in the following order: 15 reps for 2 weeks Þ 10 reps for 2 weeks Þ 5 reps for 2 weeks Þ then continue with your 5 rep max for 2 weeks or begin 2 weeks of negatives. 15¹s can be skipped when you are about to start over after the first 8 week cycle. If you are feeling strain-type injuries coming on don't skip the 15s.
Read every page through to the last. These programs have lots of details and it is important to grasp them to get the benefit, otherwise you sat you are doing HST but you are really just doing your own thing.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 9:07:18 AM
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David1991
Posts: 5170
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
quote:
2. "6) Increase the load 1.25 to 2.5% with each subsequent workout."
You need to read the whole thing. you seem to have missed all the important information, such as how th whole program is structured:
• Repetitions will decrease every 2 weeks in the following order: 15 reps for 2 weeks Þ 10 reps for 2 weeks Þ 5 reps for 2 weeks Þ then continue with your 5 rep max for 2 weeks or begin 2 weeks of negatives. 15¹s can be skipped when you are about to start over after the first 8 week cycle. If you are feeling strain-type injuries coming on don't skip the 15s.
Read every page through to the last. These programs have lots of details and it is important to grasp them to get the benefit, otherwise you sat you are doing HST but you are really just doing your own thing.
i may be missing something...i did read through all of the HST pages and the 3-day routine page.
for your bolded sentence i assume ur trying to say that i can't really start an HST routine in the 6 rep range?
about the load question im not understanding it. i read it but i need clarification on what he means. he says
6) Increase the load 1.25 to 2.5% with each subsequent workout.
im not understanding that, maybe im misinterpreting "subsequent"? i would normally take that to mean increase by 1.25-2.5% each workout but as i said the rep ranges change each time so im sure he doesn't mean that.
does he mean increase by that much with each lift the following week when u do it pairing with the antagonist muscles?
and those pairing aren't supersets right? he just says to pair them.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/24/2008 11:56:49 AM
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David1991
Posts: 5170
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
That entire paragraph is a quote from HST.
If you do not recall reading that, if you did not see that the progression goes from HIGH reps to LOW reps then you have not read the entire description. Reading it entirely will answer the questions you pose.
quote:
for your bolded sentence i assume ur trying to say that i can't really start an HST routine in the 6 rep range?
Then its not HST is it...
HST is a planned progam with a specific set of progressions and phases.
i know its from hst and i read through all of it. i guess i wasn't considering that it had to start at 15 since i was already doing lower reps than that and i was planning on following the principles except starting lower, clearly thats not a good idea lol.
could u answer the other questions though? about the 3-day routine by C.W.? thats my main confusion right now. this part:
about the load question im not understanding it. i read it but i need clarification on what he means. he says
6) Increase the load 1.25 to 2.5% with each subsequent workout.
im not understanding that, maybe im misinterpreting "subsequent"? i would normally take that to mean increase by 1.25-2.5% each workout but as i said the rep ranges change each time so im sure he doesn't mean that.
does he mean increase by that much with each lift the following week when u do it pairing with the antagonist muscles?
and those pairing aren't supersets right? he just says to pair them.
so once thats cleared up i'll understand how to go through that program when i follow it since i understand the rest of what he's saying, and it looks really good because it changes things up often, along with adding weight, and goes to failure on the last set.
but considering what i did saturday (6 rep range but considerably light because of my bad idea of starting "hst" lower) would it be best to start the routine by C.W. on tuesday? since it couldnt really be hst at this point and the C.W. one looks like a pretty solid program
(in reply to danmirage)
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