RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/12/2008 2:27:28 AM
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David1991
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From: New Jersey
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alright i'll work on it and see how long i can go before running out of idea's, thanks a lot for all this help.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/12/2008 1:01:28 PM
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David1991
Posts: 8743
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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I know the repetitive questions are getting annoying but i want to make sure i have this down right so im not screwing up and not even knoing why
Heres what i have so far
*all sets taken to/near positive failure 9-12 reps, so reps going up whenever they can*
week 1: W/O 1: 3 sets full body, 2 for bi's/tri's (3030 tempo) (60 sec. rest)
W/O 2: 3 sets full body, 2 for bi's/tri's (3032 hold at contraction)
W/O 3: 3 sets full body, 2 for bi's/tri's (3210 explosive tempo)
Week 2: W/O 1: 3 sets full body, 2 for bi's/tri's (Add 2 sets calves, hams, forearm)
W/O 2: 3 sets full body,(add weight)
W/O 3: 3 sets full body,(50 sec. rest)
week 3: W/O 1: 3 sets full body (40 sec. rest)
W/O 2: 3 sets full body (30 sec. rest)
W/O 3: 4 sets full body, 3 sets for calves, hams, forearms, bi's/tri's for the rest of the workouts
Week 4: W/O 1: 4 sets FB (superset back-chest, bi-tri, shoulders-forearms, no rest between sets or supersets)
W/O 2: 4 sets FB (??)
W/O 3: 4 sets FB (??)
at that point im doing 3-4 sets for each muscle group every 2 days (tues, thurs, sat.) with supersets and hardly any rest, im worried going more than that is going to make me sick or something and is more than i need by far at my level. i think that already might be too much
week 5: W/O 1: workout A, tuesday (upper body, 4-5 sets per muscle 3030 tempo, 6-8 reps) <-- is this even progression since sets per period of time is going down and tempo is going back to 3030?
W/O 2: workout B thursday(lower body 5 sets per muscle group)
W/O 3: Workout A friday (upper body, 4-5 sets per muscle 3032 tempo)
W/O 4: Workout B sunday (lower body, 5 sets per muscle 3032 tempo
and then continue with that same basic progression? Again, i dont mean to be so repetitive with questioning, im just trying to be meticulous with this and make the best progress i can
also, i guess since u said i should be going to positive failure, weight should be added whenever 12 reps (or whatever the top of the rep range is) is no longer positive failure right? just like reps are added whenever they can as well?
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/12/2008 1:42:19 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/12/2008 10:10:07 PM
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danmirage
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Do rest between supersets....
quote:
week 5: W/O 1: workout A, tuesday (upper body, 4-5 sets per muscle 3030 tempo, 6-8 reps) <-- is this even progression since sets per period of time is going down and tempo is going back to 3030?
When you break it up...breaking it up is allowing you more time..so don't add sets...just add weight to shoot for the lower rep range.
quote:
also, i guess since u said i should be going to positive failure, weight should be added whenever 12 reps (or whatever the top of the rep range is) is no longer positive failure right? just like reps are added whenever they can as well?
Basically, yes...you can add weight, OR you can add intensity in another way!
Weight is only 1 form of intensity...learn to think of it as only one instrument in an orchestra!!
The cyclic nature of things can be used in large or small cycles...as I said before.
So for instance I can choose a weight that allows M 13-15 reps W 9-12 rep F 6-8
Then next week I can also change the movement to have dynamic deceleration
My exercises each day can vary....flat dumbbell bench, incline bench, etc on different days
I may reach the top of the rep range that week...
The following week I can add a pre exhaust set forcing me to fail at lower reps again.
The next week I can pyramid...
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/13/2008 2:28:09 AM
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David1991
Posts: 8743
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Do rest between supersets....
oh well usually thats how i would. the only reason i said that was because in ur example before for progression with chest u said going from supersetting it with back to just straight sets of 90sec. in b/w would actually be progression. so since i was doing the opposite and changing from straight sets to supersets i thought that wouldnt be progression unless i took away the rests.
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
When you break it up...breaking it up is allowing you more time..so don't add sets...just add weight to shoot for the lower rep range.
quote:
also, i guess since u said i should be going to positive failure, weight should be added whenever 12 reps (or whatever the top of the rep range is) is no longer positive failure right? just like reps are added whenever they can as well?
Basically, yes...you can add weight, OR you can add intensity in another way!
Weight is only 1 form of intensity...learn to think of it as only one instrument in an orchestra!!
The cyclic nature of things can be used in large or small cycles...as I said before.
So for instance I can choose a weight that allows M 13-15 reps W 9-12 rep F 6-8
Then next week I can also change the movement to have dynamic deceleration
My exercises each day can vary....flat dumbbell bench, incline bench, etc on different days
I may reach the top of the rep range that week...
The following week I can add a pre exhaust set forcing me to fail at lower reps again.
The next week I can pyramid...
ooh, i think i may be starting to get it. i thought that going from, for example, 6-8 reps on monday to 10 reps on wednesday, to 12 reps on friday (with no other factor except i guess weight changed) couldnt be progress but that the reverse could. basically cause the weights are getting lighter in the first example.
but really ur saying (show by the fact the there would still only be 4 sets in the AB split which definately seems less to me, unless going to the 6-8 range is the progress?) that as long as im keeping the intensity high (positive failure) these dynamic changes from rests to sets to tempo, etc.... are forms of progress. whether it be decreasing rest to increase intensity (but reps prob. dropping) or increasing rest to increase the weight used?
is that the right idea? im not sure b/c i would think increasing rep time and splitting to the AB split would make it easier (and physically it would) and also ur example actually goes from higher to lower reps through the week.
but maybe thats the part of the concept that i wasn't getting, that its the changes that are progress?
EDIT: im just realizing what my problem is. it's not that i dont know how to change things up enough, its that i don't know what would be progress and what wouldn't be. like clearly adding a set would be progress. but then other things i dont know. i just recently found out going faster on the concentric portion (although easier) is progress. and that splitting up the routine (although easier) is progress, and apparently going from straight sets to supersets and vise-versa is progress. and then after i finally progress to push/pull/legs where do i go? thats what my problem is/has been. determining what is progress and what isn't. increasing rest to add weight or decreasing to add 'intensity' but decreasing reps, etc.....
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/13/2008 3:30:15 AM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/13/2008 8:36:00 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6347
Joined: 11/20/2005
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Superset (Chest - no rest - back) - Rest between supersets
Repeat
Progress is any stimulus that the body has to adapt to.
If you work out in the 6-8 rep range at a 3-3-3-3 pace
And at the end of a week you are at 8 reps
Then you change to pyramiding 12-10-8
Then deceleration in the 10 rep range
Then do peak contraction in the 12 rep range
then work out in the 6-8 rep range
Then do explosive eccentric in the 9-12 range
Then finish with a drop set
Then do slow eccentric
Then shorten the rests
then work out in the 6-8 rep range
....
(The thing that does not really matter is that you will have to adjust the weight based on strength and rep range goal)
Adding sets is NOT a desireable progression.
It it the MOST undesireable progression.
You should not have to resort to it.
It is adding volume and that is not a desireable progression in intensity (with a few exceptions such as when you do power sets in the 2-3 rep range...or a few rare other instances.)
When you go to AB you have more time to play with...so use it to add rest and train heavier at first. Then start to crank down on the intensity again.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/13/2008 11:57:44 AM
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David1991
Posts: 8743
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Progress is any stimulus that the body has to adapt to.
If you work out in the 6-8 rep range at a 3-3-3-3 pace
And at the end of a week you are at 8 reps
Then you change to pyramiding 12-10-8
Then deceleration in the 10 rep range
Then do peak contraction in the 12 rep range
then work out in the 6-8 rep range
Then do explosive eccentric in the 9-12 range<---explosive eccentric?
Then finish with a drop set
Then do slow eccentric
Then shorten the rests
then work out in the 6-8 rep range
....
(The thing that does not really matter is that you will have to adjust the weight based on strength and rep range goal)
Adding sets is NOT a desireable progression.
It it the MOST undesireable progression.
You should not have to resort to it.
It is adding volume and that is not a desireable progression in intensity (with a few exceptions such as when you do power sets in the 2-3 rep range...or a few rare other instances.)
When you go to AB you have more time to play with...so use it to add rest and train heavier at first. Then start to crank down on the intensity again.
ah ok, that clears up a lot of my confusion. especially "(The thing that does not really matter is that you will have to adjust the weight based on strength and rep range goal)". i guess ive just never viewed something as progression before if the weight was going down.
last thing and then i think im set.
in ur examples of what to do for progression, would those be weekly changes or changes each workout? i know progress should be made each workout but i would think those examples were for weekly changes and then within the week (those 3 workouts) u try to increase reps/weight/tempo etc.... to be in the desired range.
like for example week 1: switch to adding a drop set at the end. but within the week u maybe get 1 more rep in the 2nd workout and go with an explosive instead of slow tempo in the 3rd workout. then week 2: next form of progression, etc...?
and basically the more dynamic the better (within reason)?
(as a side note i have begun the workouts this week, tomorow will be my 2nd workout and i will be going from a 3030 tempo to a 3230, using deceleration like u talked about, holding 2 seconds after the negative portion of the lift, and then the next workout i will go 3210 using the deceleration still and an explosive concentric)
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/13/2008 3:08:54 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/14/2008 2:32:23 AM
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David1991
Posts: 8743
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
You must pause after deceleration for the best effect..otherwise the concentric is driven by the stretch reflex!
ok thanks, im about to go workout now so ill be pausing for a 2 second hold/tensing the muscle after the eccentric then going to the concentric portion.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/14/2008 6:05:53 PM
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David1991
Posts: 8743
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
5+12+5 minutes is too long!
Try this progression:
http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit_table.asp
Start at week 1!!!! Only 4 minutes.
That way you are creating a new progression as well as avoiding catabolism in the beginning.
just to clarify, u mean for me to follow that program the way its outlined right? even with the progression? im just clarifying because u said 5+12+5 is too long, yet by week 8 of that program i'd be at 5+15+5 so i wasn't sure. plus i would be progressing with cardio during bulking which i haven't heard of before.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/14/2008 7:12:55 PM
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David1991
Posts: 8743
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
No, I meant the brevity of the 4 minute progression shown at the bottom of the page.... not the whole 8-weeks.
But if you do progress...going from 4 minutes to only 5 minutes...etc
so just dont go past about 5 min. of intervals? ok then i guess i'll leave tommorow at 4 min. and do 5min. next week.
(if i read that wrong my bad, thats how i interpreted it from the "only 5 min." part but then the etc... made me question it lol.)
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/20/2008 12:49:30 PM
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David1991
Posts: 8743
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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quick question
so far ive been finding ways to progress but im wondering about something in the future....
as we talked about tempo is a good way to progress. so far i went from 3030 to 3230 to an explosive 3210. however the only way i can make the tempo significantly harder now is to 1. add time do the eccentric portion and 2. do peak contraction at the top. and at that point each rep is like 9 seconds which is really long. anyway that would be the hardest the tempo would get for the given rep range.....
but after that happens and i switch rep ranges (probably in a week or 2) to 6-8 (and then higher again after i use a lot of progression in that rep range) can i go back to a faster tempo and build up again? like say starting 6-8 rep range with a 3020 tempo and building back up to harder tempos. then when i switch exercises (in another 2 weeks) start over at a faster tempo again, etc....?
i would think so because otherwise i'd always be doing really long reps which doesn't make much sense to be
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/20/2008 6:22:54 PM
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danmirage
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It is not a factor of whether it is PERCEIVED to be HARDER for you.
quote:
the same goes for cutting rest times down, like i might get to 30 sec. for 12 reps but once i switch to the lower reps/heavier weight i would assume i need more rest time.
As always when you make a change, you want to allow THE GREATEST amount of room for change so you can milk every pound of muscle or change from it.
quote:
so tomorrows workout i could switch to 3012 (peak contraction) and that would be another form of progression correct? if thats the case thats helpful because i can just keep changing things up like that. or would it be even better to do a bigger change like 1012 where im going fast with a peak contraction? i assume the larger the change the more the body would have to adapt....
So if you changed from 12 reps max at 200 pounds with a 121 pace with 60 seconds rest to
a 6 rep max at 240 pounds with a 424 pace with 120 seconds rest that is a progression
Going to 8 reps with 120 seconds rest at 422 is a reasonable progression, then
120 seconds rest at 222
90 seconds rest at 422
90 seconds rest at 222
Then 60 seconds...
All the while the reps might drop to 6 again then work back to 8...but you are progressing.
Then you would be altering the exercise angles and order...
quote:
well then its not a progression right? or would adding reps be an example of that since like u said before doing that just shows u did indeed adapt? because in ur definition of progression u said a stimuli that ur body must adapt to so having a progression u dont adapt to makes it not a progression i would think lol
Right...it is not a progression. Doing more reps just demonstrates that you did adapt. But you are still doing the same thing.
Now the truth is that reps and weight are tools for progression...but again...the worst ones in the entire orchestra! If you can force yourself to do something new and you end up dropping reps, etc..you can see that the need to adapt has caused some upset!
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 2:15:14 AM
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David1991
Posts: 8743
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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ok cool, thanks. todays workout i'll progress by changing tempo from 3210 to 2112 and i'll change rest time from 60 sec. to 45 sec.
i think awhile ago u mentioned how adding sets is one of the least desired ways or progression....why is that? i mean to a point of course u could overtrain but why would it be least desired when going from maybe 2 sets to 3 sets...?
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/21/2008 12:00:58 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 12:38:42 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6347
Joined: 11/20/2005
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Look closely at how I set up the progression:
12 reps max at 200 pounds with
60 seconds rest 121
6 rep max at 240 pounds with
120 seconds rest that is a progression with a 424 pace
8 reps at 240 pounds
120 seconds rest at 422 is a reasonable progression, then
120 seconds rest at 222
90 seconds rest at 422
90 seconds rest at 222
A few reasons adding volume is not ideal.
The range of response is very narrow before you are doing more harm than good.
People think if 4 sets is good 12 is better. It is not.
Going from 2 sets, to 3 is in the narrow range.
In fact it is like a special change from a very low volume training regimen to a low-medium one.
The growth that can be had from that is fantastic.
Milking the range for all it is worth is important.
The transition from 3 to 4 is low-medium to medium..and again has great potential.
After that, the gains per unit of work tapers off dramatically.
However if you look at page 2 of my journal, you see all the progressions for a year and I comment on the ones that gave the largest gains..and there you will see ways to modify the training resoponse other than adding sets...that still increases the volume.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 1:37:15 PM
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David1991
Posts: 8743
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Look closely at how I set up the progression:
12 reps max at 200 pounds with
60 seconds rest 121
6 rep max at 240 pounds with
120 seconds rest that is a progression with a 424 pace
8 reps at 240 pounds
120 seconds rest at 422 is a reasonable progression, then
120 seconds rest at 222
90 seconds rest at 422
90 seconds rest at 222
why did u post that again? did i show that i wasn't getting something about it in my last post?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
A few reasons adding volume is not ideal.
The range of response is very narrow before you are doing more harm than good.
People think if 4 sets is good 12 is better. It is not.
Going from 2 sets, to 3 is in the narrow range.
In fact it is like a special change from a very low volume training regimen to a low-medium one.
The growth that can be had from that is fantastic.
Milking the range for all it is worth is important.
The transition from 3 to 4 is low-medium to medium..and again has great potential.
After that, the gains per unit of work tapers off dramatically.
ok well so far all my sets are between 2-3 so i wont go past 4.
but what happens when i split to an upper/lower split. am i still only going to do a max of 4 sets per muscle per workout? because overall per unit of time (say 10 days) i'd be doing less for the muscle than before. like i thought the point of splitting it up was because adding more in a full body split would take too long and be too much so u split it so u can add another set or 2 per muscle without training too long
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
However if you look at page 2 of my journal, you see all the progressions for a year and I comment on the ones that gave the largest gains..and there you will see ways to modify the training resoponse other than adding sets...that still increases the volume.
yea i never saw where u say what all the progressions are but i noticed u showed ur results for a year which i found interesting. it's amazing that u could put on as much as 4-5lb. of LBM in just a week, it seems unreal lol, like u know exactly what to do and when to do it to get the desired results. the gains seem pretty sporadic though.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/21/2008 1:53:42 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6347
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
ok well so far all my sets are between 2-3 so i wont go past 4.
but what happens when i split to an upper/lower split. am i still only going to do a max of 4 sets per muscle per workout? because overall per unit of time (say 10 days) i'd be doing less for the muscle than before. like i thought the point of splitting it up was because adding more in a full body split would take too long and be too much so u split it so u can add another set or 2 per muscle without training too long
There are times when you may go past 4...different routines you can throw in...a drop set for chest, pyramids for back, max power for deaedlifts...All different forms of progression.
Remember to think cyclic..there are Large cycles (Strength, Hypertrophy, Cutting) and smaller cycles within those larger cycles (Strength, Strength-hypertrophy, hypertrophy TypeII, hypertrophy type I, Power, cutting, etc.), and smaller cycles within those (Frequency, type, pace, rest, volume, and intensity variations)...
The reason my gains were not linear was that I travelled a bit in there, also I was doing different programs for a friend to demonstrate that a well trained athlete could still see results, I also went on leaning cycles, and I had a period of little sleep.
The overall annual trend was in the way of gains. I could gain indefinitely for the most part if I set my mind to it. Naturally, the closer you get to an assumed genetic peak, the slower the gains...but we rarely ever get near that genetic peak because as we progress it progresses!
Somewhere there is a chart of my gains and the chart is always moving upward...
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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