RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/9/2008 3:24:02 PM
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danmirage
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PWO - post just protein unless you have to get a whole meal..then the oatmeal is fine.
Do not taper the diet through the day. You want to grow.
Yes, warm up 3-5 minutes to get your heart rate up then start. cool down the same. Bring your heart rate down.
quote:
by that example u mean A1 eccentric part of the lift is fast and A2 eccentric part of the lift is slow right? i never really thought fast eccentric did much since its kind of just dropping the weight
A1/B1/off A2/B2/off
That is the A1 and A2 example....
Eccentric DECELERATION...that means lowerng the weight under accelerated control and stopping it then holding it there for 2 seconds before the next concentric lift/press. This is a proven mechanism for growth and adaptation. This is VERy different than droping the weight.
quote:
ur above split example would be for later progression right? but u reccomend i start with the full body 3 days a week 3 sets per bodypart per workout right
You can train the whole body in about 40 minutes
Chest, Back, Leg, Shoulder, Bi, Tri
3 sets each, 9-12 rep range with low rest (30-45 seconds)
Your breathing should become faster and stay fast...
Staring here gives you lots of wiggle room...
In a week you can go to 4 sets
Next week you can add Hams, Calf, abs and switch to A/B/off
quote:
ok so u suggest i go to positive failure on each set? my reps usually drop by about 2-3 reps if i use the same weight and went to failure with that weight the set before.
As long as you know the difference between Failure and positive failure.
You do as many reps as you can..you do not PLAN the reps, just the rep range.
You stop when you know you can not do another. Not after you have failed to do another.
quote:
u said going to 45 seconds rest but lower reps is still progression, but obviously if u did like 2 reps per set it wouldnt be.
The reps go down on their own when you shorten the rest period!
You try to do as many as you can.
Reps go up on their own when you rest longer, 90 seconds, 120 seconds...
quote:
kind of like when is the point where its no longer progression? same with the superset, it seems like overall that would make the workout less intense (although for that one i see what ur saying since the rest between sets for chest would go down)
If you do 2 exercises non-stop it is more intense than if you do the first exercise, rest 90 seconds, do the next exercise rest 90 seconds...
quote:
This is based upon my body’s chemistry (which, it has been determined through testing and feedback, favors higher fat and lower carbohydrates) and my goal of gaining muscle with a minimum of fat gain. My target is 3000 calories with 25% of the total from Protein, 30% of the total from fat and 45% of the total from carbs.
This is a very low carb portion and very high fat portion of total intake and based upon research and statistics would be very inappropriate for 87% of people.
There are roughly 7 graduations for optimal diet based on individual chmistry. I give 3 main categories in my gaining mass thread (then this represents the optimal range for 33% of people in that view) It is really in a spectrum. Where the optimal for any healthy individual fits somewhere on the spectrum.
I can gain muscle even faster if I go to 50% carbs or 55% carbs...but also, I sometimes gain more fat.
_____________________________
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http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
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(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/9/2008 6:12:33 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7873
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
quote:
kind of like when is the point where its no longer progression? same with the superset, it seems like overall that would make the workout less intense (although for that one i see what ur saying since the rest between sets for chest would go down)
If you do 2 exercises non-stop it is more intense than if you do the first exercise, rest 90 seconds, do the next exercise rest 90 seconds...
yea what i meant was that in ur example u say progression would be going from supersetting back and chest to just working straight sets for chest. and i was saying i thought supersetting them together would be more intense. but i see how it would be progression since it is less time between sets for chest (in ur example)
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
That was yes about the 3-day routine to start....
ok thanks. im making my diet and routine now and will have it ready by tomorrow morning.
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Do not taper the diet through the day. You want to grow.
hmm, ok then. i thought it would make more sense to have less when ur burning less but ive seen arguments for both sides. it seems strange to me that u would want just as much carbs at night though. thats the same thing i noticed tom venuto suggested too (not tapering for bulking) and im a big fan of his work too.
i noticed ur meal plan was divided into 5 meals. i mentioned something dealing with 5 or 6 meals before so we kind of covered it. but would u reccomend 5-6 or is it more based on how long im awake, whats more convenient, etc....
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/9/2008 6:18:49 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/9/2008 7:04:01 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7873
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From: New Jersey
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ah, i see.
as far as supplements go i am taking whey protein and a multi-vitamin.
would u suggest anything else that would significantly increase gains? i'm thinking of buying creatine since thats the most studied and backed up supplement. ive taken it before though and idk if i really saw a big change.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/9/2008 7:44:16 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7873
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From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Creatine enhances training and response to training.
You can use it or not. You have it in the body already.
If stress is a big issue, you might think about a stress formula.
well would the creatine make a significant difference in positive results? ive heard so much about it but its not like u can always believe these advertisements and even studies sometimes
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/9/2008 8:40:11 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7873
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Okay i changed my diet alot. i think it could still use some tweaking but my friend is here and he's already been bored watching my change it for the last hour lol
any changes u would make to make it more optimal would be appreciated
i think i need to get calories a little lower like u suggested and put fruit pre-workout right? do u think meal 3 is enough chicken? it seems like a lot of carb sources and only 2 oz. of chicken but the ratio's worked out right. and i would need a fibrous vegetable in meals 3 and 6 i guess.
Pre workout
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-oatmeal, 1/3 cup: 100 calories, 3.3g protein, 18g carbs, 1.67g fat
SUBTOTALS: 190 calories, 20.3 protein, 20g carbs, 3.17g fat
Pre run
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 90 calories, 17 protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
Meal 1 (post workout)
-Oatmeal, 1 cups: 300 calories, 10g protein, 54g carbs, 5g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat
-Protein powder, 1.5 scoops: 135 calories, 25.5g protein, 3g carbs, 2.25g fat
-1 oz. Chicken breast: 33 calories, 7g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 523 calories, 43.1g protein, 70.75carbs, 8.75g fat
Meal 1 (non-workout days)
-Oatmeal, 1 cup: 300 calories, 10g protein, 54g carbs, 5g fat
-2/3 tbsp, natural PB: 67 calories, 3g protein, 2g carbs, 5.33g fat
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-Banana, 1 oz.: 25 calories, .25g protien, 6.25g carbs, 0.1g fat
-1 oz. Chicken breast: 33 calories, 7 g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 515 calories, 45.25g protein, 64.25g carbs, 13.18g fat
Meal 2
-Cottage cheese, 1/2 cup: 100calories, 15g protein, 6g carbs, 1.125g fat
-oatmeal, 1/2 cup: 150 calories, 5g protein, 27g carbs, 2.5g fat
-chopped spinach 2oz.: 60 calories, 4g protein, 8g carbs, 0g fat
-Peanuts, 1/2 oz: 80 calories, 3.5g protein, 3g carbs, 7g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat
SUBTOTALS: 445 calories, 28.1g protein, 57.75g carbs, 10.875g fat
Meal 3
-Whole wheat bread, 2 pieces: 200 calories, 8g protein, 36g carbs, 3g fat
-Chicken breast, 2 oz: 67 calories, 14g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
-oatmeal, 1/3 cup: 100 calories, 3.3g protein, 18g carbs, 1.67g fat
-Miracle whip, 1 tbsp: 20 calories, 0g protein, 1g carbs, 1.5g fat
-Peanuts, 1/2 oz: 80 calories, 3.5g protein, 3g carbs, 7g fat
SUBTOTALS: 467 calories, 28.8g protein, 58g carbs, 13.17g fat
Meal 4
-2 tsp. Olive oil: 80 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 9.33g fat
-1/4 cup Tomato sauce: 15 calories, 0g protein, 4g carbs, 0g fat
-4oz. Broccoli: 40 calories, 3.2g protein, 7.5g carbs, .4g fat
-3oz. Salmon: 125 calories, 16.4g protein, 0g carbs, 6.8g fat
-oatmeal, 1/2 cup: 150 calories, 5g protein, 27g carbs, 2.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 420 Calories, 24.6g protein, 38.5g carbs, 19.03g fat
Meal 5
- about 6 egg whites / or substitute, 1/2 cup: 60 calories, 12g protein, 2g carbs, 0g fat
-2 whole egg: 140 calories, 12g protein, 2g carbs, 9g fat
-3oz. Broccoli: 30 calories, 2.4g protein, 5.7g carbs, .3g fat
-sweet potato 6oz.: 155 calories, 3.5g protein, 35.5g carbs, .3g fat
SUBTOTALS: 385 calories, 29.9g protein, 45.2g carbs, 12.1g fat
Meal 6
-Cottage cheese, 3/4 cup: 150 calories, 22.5g protein, 9g carbs, 2.25g fat
-1 tbsp, natural PB: 100 calories, 4.5g protein, 3g carbs, 8g fat
-1 whole egg: 70calories, 6g protein, 1g carbs, 4.5g fat
-1/4 cup oatmeal: 75 calories, 2.5g, 13.5g carbs, 1.25g fat
SUBTOTALS: 395 calories, 35.5g protein, 26.5g carbs , 16g fat
TOTALS: 2771.25 calories, 209.725g protein, 304.45g carbs, 85.675g fat = 2827.775
29.67% protein 43.07% carbs 27.27% fat
i'll start that tomorrow
WORKOUT
squat 3x9-12
Deadlift 2x9-12
DB bench 3x9-12
pulldown 1x9-12
Military press 3x9-12
barbell curl 3x9-12
skull crushers 3x9-12
60 seconds rest in between. the next week i will add 1 set to each exercise and add calves, hams, and forearms. it seems really short though, like i would finish in about 30min. but i guess that leaves room to progress
the next week i will take rest down to 45 seconds next week i will try to add a rep to each set. doing all of that with the same weight is still good progression from what ive read here.
each set to positive failure. only thing is like i said my reps drop a lot after failure but i guess i'll have to see how it goes.
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/9/2008 9:45:12 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/10/2008 12:03:21 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
well would the creatine make a significant difference in positive results? ive heard so much about it but its not like u can always believe these advertisements and even studies sometimes
Remember, supplement are the extra..you can do just fine without creatine.
Meal 2 I would take out the banana...put that in the Pre workout
a fibrous vegetable in meals 3 and 6 i guess...yes please.
I also recommend at least using rice interchanged with oatmeal...you need variety.
quote:
1 set to each exercise and add calves, hams, and forearms
Do these in different weeks...milk it!
quote:
only thing is like i said my reps drop a lot after failure but i guess i'll have to see how it goes
Something is not jiving...you are not going to failure...you are going to positive failure...which is the last rep BEFORE failure.
Your reps may have dropped before...that is from your low carbs...not enough energy in the muscles...but now you should see a different response. Your reps may drop a little...
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/10/2008 5:38:06 AM
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David1991
Posts: 7873
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
quote:
well would the creatine make a significant difference in positive results? ive heard so much about it but its not like u can always believe these advertisements and even studies sometimes
Remember, supplement are the extra..you can do just fine without creatine.
alright i wont go on the creatine now, especially since that will add even more water weight which i dont want more of the first week.
when i reintroduce all these carbs and gain water weight that will show up on my measurements as LBM right? or could the fat mm from caliper testing actually expand from more water in the cells?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Meal 2 I would take out the banana...put that in the Pre workout
ok i'll put that pre workout. i guess i'll leave the amount of that and pre workout oatmeal the same unless thats a problem for some reason. should i add enough calories worth of oatmeal to meal 2 on days im not training to make the calories more even?
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
I also recommend at least using rice interchanged with oatmeal...you need variety.
quote:
1 set to each exercise and add calves, hams, and forearms
Do these in different weeks...milk it!
ok i'll add in long grain brown rice in meal 4 instead of oatmeal. and add those other muscles the next week.
would it be ok/better to start with 2 sets for bi's and tri's? i figure this way theres more room for progression and also when i add a set to every exercise the next week i dont think it would be wise to have 12 sets for bi's and tri's in a week at my level especially along with 12 sets for chest and back
quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Something is not jiving...you are not going to failure...you are going to positive failure...which is the last rep BEFORE failure.
Your reps may have dropped before...that is from your low carbs...not enough energy in the muscles...but now you should see a different response. Your reps may drop a little...
yea i understand what u mean by positive failure, being able to completely finish that last rep. however i really push myself on that sometimes where i know theres no possible way i could do another. but like u said that big drop in reps could be from the low carbs
my plan for progression is going to go something like this
week 1: 3 sets per muscle (roughly 10 reps to positive failure) (60 sec. rest)
week 2: add 1 set per muscle
week 3: add calves, hams, forearms
week 4: lower rest time
week 5: add reps
week 6: add weight
week 7: superset muscles with no rest between sets and supersets
week 8: split to upper/lower
continue with same basic principles.......
hopefully that will work. do i stay with the same exercises the whole time?
what do u do once u get to a point where ur at a very progressed point. say 4 workouts a week lasting an hour and it would just result in diminishing returns to add more. do u "start over" again at the full body 3 day a week and just not get results the first week or so? cause what ive done in the past is actually like "reset" exercises and weights every 4 weeks so i could progress with weight during those weeks and i think starting over that often could have been part of why my results were so bad
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/10/2008 6:18:34 AM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/10/2008 8:35:54 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
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Generally it shows up as LBM.
quote:
ok i'll put that pre workout. i guess i'll leave the amount of that and pre workout oatmeal the same unless thats a problem for some reason. should i add enough calories worth of oatmeal to meal 2 on days im not training to make the calories more even?
I usually have a non training day menu to do that.
quote:
would it be ok/better to start with 2 sets for bi's and tri's? i figure this way theres more room for progression and also when i add a set to every exercise the next week i dont think it would be wise to have 12 sets for bi's and tri's in a week at my level especially along with 12 sets for chest and back
12 sets..what are you talking about? THere should not be 12 sets for any exercise.
quote:
hopefully that will work. do i stay with the same exercises the whole time?
Change em as part of a progression.
quote:
what do u do once u get to a point where ur at a very progressed point. say 4 workouts a week lasting an hour and it would just result in diminishing returns to add more.
Progressions are cyclic. For example: Mass phase - strength phase - fat loss phase - repeat
Within each part of each cycle there are progressions that are cycled.
There are so many ways to vary the workout, you can use the same weight and sets and go a year with regular gains just by using different intesnity variations. SO thre is no VERY progressed point...you just go from where you are and keep cycling and progressing.
Progression is ideally cyclic not linear. Results however will tend to be more linear.
quote:
do u "start over" again at the full body 3 day a week and just not get results the first week or so?
Not ever, never no..you never "just not get results the first week" ... you want to always get results.
So every part of the cycle when you com around...will be new and diferent.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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David1991
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/10/2008 10:13:28 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
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Don't need to tally weekly sets. Just focus on recovery.
quote:
ok, so change the exercise for progression with other factors staying the same during that change im assuming. how often? about every 4-6 weeks?
Every time you walk in the gym, something needs to change. Progression is ongoing, cyclic, and persistent.
quote:
ok i guess im just having trouble seeing how u can always progress without too much. like after u divide it into splits, higher weight, lower rests, supersets, etc.... i mean i know there are ways to keep it going, i just dont know where to go after a certain point. i guess i'll deal with that in 12 weeks or so once i get to that point.
It takes an Ah-ha to understand this. Once you go a year with a great progression and cycle, you get it.
Progression is ongoing, cyclic, and persistent.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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David1991
Posts: 7873
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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[Awaiting Approval]
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/10/2008 2:27:57 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7873
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From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Week 3 nothing changed....changing the weight so the rep range is different is a change butr doing everything the same and demonstrating that YES in fact you did adapt to it...is nothing.
wait seriously? how is adding reps with the same weight not progression/change??
isnt that the progression u outline for me before with this...... quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Changes should be ongoing but gradual.
If you do 3 sets of bench at 220
Each set to positive failure
With reps at 9, 9 , 9
Next time 10, 9, 9 reps
next time 11, 10, 10
Next 12 reps, 11 reps, 9
Next time you may get 12, 12, 8
Next 12, 12, 11
Next time you amy go to 230
10, 9, 9
< Message edited by David1991 -- 2/10/2008 4:32:10 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/10/2008 6:19:44 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
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quote:
wait seriously? how is adding reps with the same weight not
progression/change??
Not really. It is adaptation.
You are not adding reps you are doing max reps with all the same parameters..how is that change?
Strength is cyclic and dependant on many factors and so the max reps you can do will vary.
Along with that outline I said to change the intensity parameters every session.
(change rest time, superset, acceleration, deceleration, change pace, pyramid, different movements, different weight/rep scheme, pre exhaust....etc)
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/10/2008 6:33:21 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7873
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
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hm, this is confusing, i always thought doing more with the same weight would be progression. i mean if u can do 10 reps and no more and then 12 and no more i would consider u to have made progress. i dont see how reps could go up with other variables of intensity going up at the same time.
but u said adding weight with the same/slightly lower reps would be progression correct? if the weeks i add reps i speed up from say a 3121 pace on most exercises to a 3010 pace would that be sufficient? i guess that would only be enough for one of the 3 workouts that week though.....maybe the next i could hold for a count of 2 at the bottom with the same weight and that would be another progression.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/10/2008 6:54:41 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
i always thought doing more with the same weight would be progression. i mean if u can do 10 reps and no more and then 12 and no more i would consider u to have made progress.
You are not adding reps you are doing max reps with all the same parameters.
quote:
i dont see how reps could go up with other variables of intensity going up at the same time.
Ahhh..now you are starting to get it! It is not so easy if you keep changing the parameters...you might be at a set weight for some time before going up...
You know that increases in weight are finite...so it is something you want to MILK!
quote:
but u said adding weight with the same/slightly lower reps would be progression correct?
Not a great progression and you are you are likely still doing max reps with all the same parameters!
quote:
if the weeks i add reps i speed up from say a 3121 pace on most exercises to a 3010 pace would that be sufficient? i guess that would only be enough for one of the 3 workouts that week though.....maybe the next i could hold for a count of 2 at the bottom with the same weight and that would be another progression.
Those are good manipulations! Rather, hold for a count of 2 at the TOP - flexed position...maximum tension!
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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