RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 10/17/2007 1:36:34 PM
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rogerking
Posts: 14
Joined: 9/2/2007
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oh yeah, also someone told me that you can realistically only put on about 9 or 10 lbs of actual muscle in a full year of hard training. is this true?
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 10/27/2007 2:23:24 PM
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rogerking
Posts: 14
Joined: 9/2/2007
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cool, thanks dan so far in 3 weeks ive gained a pound and a half and im making sure to use all your good advise. so far i look a lot thicker just from that pound and a half and my abs are still ripped. ive been varying it by hitting a 3 day cycle heavy w/ 6 reps for all compound moves and about 8 reps for isolation moves and then a day off followed by a 3 day cycle of 12 reps for everything with a slight twist have it be drop sets , squeeze sets, faster or slower tempo then before, supersets etc. it seems to be working quite well. i have it all recorded in a notebook so i never have to wonder what worked and what i did the week before. this makes bulking alot more fun for me. thanks again for all your awesome advise!!
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 11/29/2007 2:11:42 PM
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rogerking
Posts: 14
Joined: 9/2/2007
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hey dan for my workout drink ive been having dilutted gatorade powder with whey protein. is the gatorade a good choice or should i use something else?
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 11/29/2007 2:23:59 PM
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rogerking
Posts: 14
Joined: 9/2/2007
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ok, nevermind i just looked it up and the sucrose is 8.27 the glucose is only 2.76 and the fructose is only .03 hardly in the recommendations you gave. other then grapes and a banana and other things i would have to use a blender for is there any cheap powders out the that are like gatorade but with a better equation to them??
ps- so far now after 8 weeks im up 4 lbs and my bodyfat has actually gone from 4.5 down to 3.97%. that puts me at 159.5. this is really working!!
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 12/10/2007 5:10:23 PM
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Berganator
Posts: 345
Joined: 3/13/2006
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What foods cause an increase in catabolism?
(in reply to rogerking)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 12/12/2007 10:38:19 AM
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Berganator
Posts: 345
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Yeh, I know what catabolism is... Its the destructive phase of metabolism. Yet, the guy from the podcast said there were specific foods thats increased the rate of catabolism and I was wondering what these were. Processed foods? Sugars?
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 12/12/2007 11:53:32 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
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Great, just wanted to be sure we were on the same page.
Yes, you have the right idea.
Dan often discusses things in terms of being anti-anabolic.
Highly processed foods would certainly be an example.
In my notes on the recording, I note a few important points:
High saturated fat intake, lack of hydration, meal timing, proper nutrient balance, high fructose intake, modulating the diet...
Dan discusses his top anti-anabolic list elsewhere.:
Over cooking food
Eating too fast
Missing Meals
Over Eating
Not drinking enough water
Not getting ENOUGH protein
Not getting ENOUGH calories
Drinking Alcohol
Too much caffeine
Taking Saw Palmetto when you are not at risk of BPH
Training TOO LITTLE! (1x per bodypart per week does not take advantage of more frequent hormonal "work - recovery" cycles)
Doing low intensity cardio
Never lifting Heavy
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to Berganator)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 12/15/2007 10:52:39 PM
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Berganator
Posts: 345
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Hmm, eating too fast... Thats interesting because I tend to eat fast since I have to mow down food during passing times at school ( 6 minutes ), so this may be causing an anabolic effect? Also, maybe I overeat since 5000 calories a lot, but its the only amount I can eat now to gain any lbs on the scale. Im up to 192 now, at a lower BF % than when I first hit 200 6-8 months ago so thats good I suppose.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 1/24/2008 8:25:37 PM
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Forsaken3400
Posts: 362
Joined: 10/9/2007
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im bulking right now, at went from 133-134 lbs to 144 lbs in a bit over a month, i know ive gained lean mass as bicep got slightly bigger, and lifts are more, but ive gained some fat, as abs are not as defined. My bodyfat is 13-16, i dont konw how to use my calipers :P but yea i want to lose fat for summer.... i know that thats bad as im not heavy enough to cut... but ive gotten so much fat on my face this bulk....
my diet is like this
8:45shake in morning (fruit, whey, flax oil)
12:45lunch (3 whole grain bread with can of tuna)
4:15 chicken breast or meat 4-5 oz (enough to match 35 grams of protein) with oatmeal, peanut butter, vegetable
6:15 preworkout - oatmeal, peanut butter, deli meat, some cheese
7:45post workout - shake (1.5 scoops whey, half a banana, icecream)
8:45-9(35 grams of protein from meat,sweet potato, peanut butter, vegetable
before bed - cottage cheese, glass of skimmed milk
ratios are about 33/33/33 eating 2500-2600 calories gaining fine
do you suggest for losing fat for summer to do more cardio, and go at maintenance calories or to cut
(in reply to rogerking)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 1/24/2008 10:05:42 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
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Well, that diet is not exactly the "optimal" diet for bulking so in a small way you set yourself up for a challenge.
Lets look at those meals...instead of stressing about cardio and all the rest at first.
Start by simply cleaning up the diet.
8:45shake in morning (fruit, whey, flax oil)
Start with a whole food protein! Better would be to drop the fruit and have a veggie
Scrambled eggs with mushroom, onion, garlic, spinach and some oven roasted potato.
12:45lunch (3 whole grain bread with can of tuna)
Replace bread with rice, quinoa, or other whole food..add a vegetable!
4:15 chicken breast or meat 4-5 oz (enough to match 35 grams of protein) with oatmeal, peanut butter, vegetable
OK
6:15 preworkout - oatmeal, peanut butter, deli meat, some cheese
Not great pre workout unless it is over 45 minutes, In which case get some veggies in there.
7:45post workout - shake (1.5 scoops whey, half a banana, icecream)
No ice cream. Drop the banana.
8:45-9(35 grams of protein from meat,sweet potato, peanut butter, vegetable
ok
before bed - cottage cheese, glass of skimmed milk
A complete whole food meal here (chicken, baked potato, broccoli) not within 90 minutes of bed.
A better source of fat would be ideal.
Whole unroasted nuts (almonds, walnuts...) instead of roasted peanuts.
Is that peanut butter 100% peanuts or is there ANYTHING else in it.
If so, at least change it to a pure ground nut butter.
Consider a switch to fish oil from flax oil.
After you clean up the diet you should see the pudge go down!!
Next, look at the losing fat thread for some ideas on gradual changes to keep the pace of fat loss going.
Add alterations slowly to milk each one...don't try to do everything at once.
They body does not play that way!
There is a link to a page with caliper instructions on it as well so you can use the calipers to help you track changes and stay on top!
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to Forsaken3400)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 1/25/2008 1:55:39 PM
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Forsaken3400
Posts: 362
Joined: 10/9/2007
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Thanx a lot for takin ur time and helping me with this...
another thing is training, the only part i feel a little sore the day after are chest and sometimes legs....
the morning i used to eat eggs, although over here every grocery store ive been to - liquid egg whites are 500 ml for $3-4,
i thought before bed we need casien protein or something which will build muscle over night...
and also i noticed good gains having ice cream postworkout, read about it in book called RAW MUSCLE, if you suggest dropping the banana and ice cream post workout what do i eat..... just whey?!, and i forgot to add that i have the whey with soy milk
what should i add to preworkout
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 1/25/2008 4:10:20 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
and also i noticed good gains having ice cream postworkout, read about it in book called RAW MUSCLE, if you suggest dropping the banana and ice cream post workout what do i eat..... just whey?!, and i forgot to add that i have the whey with soy milk
what should i add to preworkout
Whey with the soy is fine...but check that the soy has LOW sugar. Some are made with LOTS of sugar.
Pre and post workout are discussed in the losing fat thread.
Yes, the whey 30 minutes pre-workout is fine if you at 60-90 minutes ago.
Let us both get on the same page.
You said:
quote:
do you suggest for do you suggest for losing fat for summer to do more cardio, and go at maintenance calories or to cut to do more cardio, and go at maintenance calories or to cut
Bread and ice cream are not great but ok for bulking, but you did not ask about bulking. You asked about losing fat for summer.
This answer is about getting lean.
You will still gain muscle.
Post workout, if you want to gain muscle but get leaner, simply drop the fast insulin boosters for a while.
When you like the body you get, slowly add in the banana. The ice cream is for over the top insulin response.
Yes, that makes you gain weight faster...some of which is muscle some is likely to be fat.
Also you will retain more water, which you described.
Since you are NOT tracking your caliper measures week to week, you have no idea what is happening.
Read my gaining mass post. Pay attention to the part about keeping the momentum of gains.
Tracking and making adjustment is essential.
quote:
another thing is training, the only part i feel a little sore the day after are chest and sometimes legs....
Post exercise soreness means NOTHING in relation to growth!
It is not an idicator of the quality and response to your workout.
Go it? Good. It just indicates your level of fitness in relation to removal of waste byproducts that build up.
quote:
i thought before bed we need casien protein or something which will build muscle over night...
You need lots of things. Casien is not a nutrient balanced offering. The veggies help keep your body alkaline and thus pro-anabolic, they also provide many of the precursors needed to actually have the growth you want. The carbs feed your body and brain and help spare protein, the fats nourish the body and provide hormone precursers so you CAN build. The protein is the stuff of building blocks and neurotransmitters and many other things.
You need more than casein. It is a simplistic and flawed theory. It functions, but not efficiently. I won't go into it now.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/5/2008 12:43:45 PM
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David1991
Posts: 7890
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: New Jersey
Status: online
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Hey dan i have a few questions
1. why did u suggest taking the banana out? just to get lean? because i thought u reccomended to always having something like a banana PWO
2. Why do u suggest things like potatoes for the last meal? wouldnt starchy carbs (especially of white potatoes) be bad so close to when ur going to sleep?
3. I read that u said one should be gaining .5lb-2lb. of muscle while losing .3-.5lb. of fat a week. do u really think most can achieve this? ive always been under the impression that its nearly impossible to do both
4. why do u suggest doing no cardio while bulking? i would think on days ur not working out it would help to keep fat down.
those are my main questions, but lastly...ive been trying to clean bulk and i want to keep fat to a minimum. this is my diet, is there anything u would change to make it optimal for gaining LBM while keeping fat down and maybe even losing some? thanks
Pre workout
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-oatmeal, 1/3 cup: 100 calories, 3.3g protein, 18g carbs, 1.67g fat
SUBTOTALS: 190 calories, 20.3 protein, 20g carbs, 3.17g fat
Pre run
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 90 calories, 17 protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
Meal 1
-Oatmeal, 1.25 cups: 375 calories, 12.5g protein, 67.5g carbs, 6.25g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat
-Protein powder, 1.5 scoops: 135 calories, 25.5g protein, 3g carbs, 2.25g fat
-2 oz. Chicken breast: 67 calories, 14g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 632 calories, 52.6g protein, 84.25carbs, 8.75g fat
Meal 1 (non-workout days)
-Oatmeal, 1.25 cup: 375 calories, 12.5g protein, 67.5g carbs, 6.25g fat
-2/3 tbsp, natural PB: 67 calories, 3g protein, 2g carbs, 5.33g fat
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-3 oz. Chicken breast: 100 calories, 21g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 632 calories, 53.5g protein, 71.5g carbs, 13.08g fat
-1 omega 3 pill: 10 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 1g fat
Meal 2
-Protein powder, ½ scoop: 45 calories, 8.5g protein, 1g carbs, .75g fat
-Cottage cheese, 3/4 cup: 150 calories, 22.5g protein, 9g carbs, 2.25g fat
-oatmeal, 1/2 cup: 150 calories, 5g protein, 27g carbs, 2.5g fat
-Peanuts, 1/2 oz: 80 calories, 3.5g protein, 3g carbs, 7g fat
-2 egg whites: 34 calories, 7.2g protein, 0.4g carbs, 0.2g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat
SUBTOTALS: 514 calories, 47.3g protein, 54.15g carbs, 13g fat
Meal 3
-Whole wheat bread, 2 pieces: 200 calories, 8g protein, 36g carbs, 3g fat
-Chicken breast, 6 oz: 200 calories, 42g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
-Miracle whip, 1 tbsp: 20 calories, 0g protein, 1g carbs, 1.5g fat
-sting cheese, 1 pieces: 70 calories, 8g protein, 1g carbs, 4g fat
SUBTOTALS: 490 calories, 57.9g protein, 38g carbs, 8.5g fat
Meal 4
-1 can tuna: 125 calories, 27.5g protein, 1g carbs, 2.5g fat
-2 tsp. Olive oil: 80 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 9.33g fat
-1/3 cup Tomato sauce: 20 calories, 0g protein, 5.33g carbs, 0g fat
-1.25oz. Fat free cheese: 56.25 calories, 11.25g protein, 2.5g carbs, 0g fat
-7.5oz. Broccoli: 75 calories, 6g protein, 14g carbs, .8g fat
-3oz. Salmon: 125 calories, 16.4g protein, 0g carbs, 6.8g fat
SUBTOTALS: 481.25 Calories, 62.15g protein, 22.83g carbs, 19.43g fat
Meal 5
- about 6 egg whites / or substitute, 3/4 cup: 90 calories, 18g protein, 3g carbs, 0g fat
-2 whole egg: 140 calories, 12g protein, 2g carbs, 9g fat
-1 egg whites: 17 calories, 3.6g protein, 0.2g carbs, 0.1g fat
-1 can tuna: 125 calories, 27.5g protein, 1g carbs, 2.5g fat
-Peas, 3oz.: 67.5 calories, 4.5g protein, 12g carbs, .3g fat
SUBTOTALS: 439.5 calories, 65.6g protein, 18.2g carbs, 14.6g fat
Meal 6
-Cottage cheese, 1 cup: 200 calories, 30g protein, 12g carbs, 3g fat
-1 tbsp, natural PB: 100 calories, 4.5g protein, 3g carbs, 8g fat
-1 whole egg: 70calories, 6g protein, 1g carbs, 4.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 370 calories, 40.5g protein, 16g carbs , 15.5g fat
TOTALS: 3076.75 calories, 344.15g protein, 226.43g carbs, 85.03g fat
45.17% protein 29.72% carbs 25.11% fat
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Awesome Muscle Building Topic #24: BULKING Part II - 2/5/2008 5:14:33 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6292
Joined: 11/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
1. why did u suggest taking the banana out? just to get lean? because i thought u reccomended to always having something like a banana PWO
When we are talking about purely LOSING FAT...fruit is not an ideal food.
quote:
2. Why do u suggest things like potatoes for the last meal? wouldnt starchy carbs (especially of white potatoes) be bad so close to when ur going to sleep?
No. A balanced meal of WHOLE foods digests slowly and provides nutrients to the body over hours. You need carbs for the brain and for various processes. If you don't eat them, then you produce hormones that convert proteins into them. Not ideal.
quote:
3. I read that u said one should be gaining .5lb-2lb. of muscle while losing .3-.5lb. of fat a week. do u really think most can achieve this? ive always been under the impression that its nearly impossible to do both
Yes. I have seen it (100s of people doing it at once), done it myself, trained others and monitored them doing it...
If you are at a lower BF% then the fat loss number that is feasable gets to be lower and lower.
quote:
4. why do u suggest doing no cardio while bulking? i would think on days ur not working out it would help to keep fat down.
If you strive for maximal gains, then you want certain hormonal patterns. Cardio encourages certain hormones....not optimal for maximum muscle gains. It also means you have to eat more to support the added caloric expenditure.
You can still gain muscle with cardio. No problem. Some people gain better with some cardio.
quote:
...ive been trying to clean bulk and i want to keep fat to a minimum.
You know that by favoring a hormonal state that breaks down protein instead of one that builds muscle is not optimal so no need to go on about the ratio...
Oatmeal is not a great PWO carb. Too much fiber for 30 minutes out.
Where is your post workout? Get protein w/in 30 minutes!
Try to stick with whole food sources and drop as much of the powder protein as you can.
Replace fruits with veggies anywhere and everywhere in meals that you can.
Have a fibrous veggie (not including peas, corn, tomato, carrot) with every meal.
Replace bread with a real food. (rice, quinoa, amaranth, sweet potato, peas, corn, tomato,...)
Have a carb as above with every meal.
The goal is to control your hormones.
Pre workout
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-oatmeal, 1/3 cup: 100 calories, 3.3g protein, 18g carbs, 1.67g fat
SUBTOTALS: 190 calories, 20.3 protein, 20g carbs, 3.17g fat
Pre run
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 90 calories, 17 protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
Meal 1
-Oatmeal, 1.25 cups: 375 calories, 12.5g protein, 67.5g carbs, 6.25g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat
-Protein powder, 1.5 scoops: 135 calories, 25.5g protein, 3g carbs, 2.25g fat
-2 oz. Chicken breast: 67 calories, 14g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 632 calories, 52.6g protein, 84.25carbs, 8.75g fat
Meal 1 (non-workout days)
-Oatmeal, 1.25 cup: 375 calories, 12.5g protein, 67.5g carbs, 6.25g fat
-2/3 tbsp, natural PB: 67 calories, 3g protein, 2g carbs, 5.33g fat
-Protein powder, 1 scoops: 90 calories, 17g protein, 2g carbs, 1.5g fat
-3 oz. Chicken breast: 100 calories, 21g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
SUBTOTALS: 632 calories, 53.5g protein, 71.5g carbs, 13.08g fat
-1 omega 3 pill: 10 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 1g fat
Meal 2
-Protein powder, ½ scoop: 45 calories, 8.5g protein, 1g carbs, .75g fat
-Cottage cheese, 3/4 cup: 150 calories, 22.5g protein, 9g carbs, 2.25g fat
-oatmeal, 1/2 cup: 150 calories, 5g protein, 27g carbs, 2.5g fat
-Peanuts, 1/2 oz: 80 calories, 3.5g protein, 3g carbs, 7g fat
-2 egg whites: 34 calories, 7.2g protein, 0.4g carbs, 0.2g fat
-2.2oz Banana: 55 calories, .6g protein, 13.75 g carbs, 0.25g fat
SUBTOTALS: 514 calories, 47.3g protein, 54.15g carbs, 13g fat
Meal 3
-Whole wheat bread, 2 pieces: 200 calories, 8g protein, 36g carbs, 3g fat
-Chicken breast, 6 oz: 200 calories, 42g protein, 0 carbs, 0 fat
-Miracle whip, 1 tbsp: 20 calories, 0g protein, 1g carbs, 1.5g fat
-sting cheese, 1 pieces: 70 calories, 8g protein, 1g carbs, 4g fat
SUBTOTALS: 490 calories, 57.9g protein, 38g carbs, 8.5g fat
Meal 4
-1 can tuna: 125 calories, 27.5g protein, 1g carbs, 2.5g fat
-2 tsp. Olive oil: 80 calories, 0g protein, 0g carbs, 9.33g fat
-1/3 cup Tomato sauce: 20 calories, 0g protein, 5.33g carbs, 0g fat
-1.25oz. Fat free cheese: 56.25 calories, 11.25g protein, 2.5g carbs, 0g fat
-7.5oz. Broccoli: 75 calories, 6g protein, 14g carbs, .8g fat
-3oz. Salmon: 125 calories, 16.4g protein, 0g carbs, 6.8g fat
SUBTOTALS: 481.25 Calories, 62.15g protein, 22.83g carbs, 19.43g fat
Meal 5
- about 6 egg whites / or substitute, 3/4 cup: 90 calories, 18g protein, 3g carbs, 0g fat
-2 whole egg: 140 calories, 12g protein, 2g carbs, 9g fat
-1 egg whites: 17 calories, 3.6g protein, 0.2g carbs, 0.1g fat
-1 can tuna: 125 calories, 27.5g protein, 1g carbs, 2.5g fat
-Peas, 3oz.: 67.5 calories, 4.5g protein, 12g carbs, .3g fat
SUBTOTALS: 439.5 calories, 65.6g protein, 18.2g carbs, 14.6g fat
Meal 6
-Cottage cheese, 1 cup: 200 calories, 30g protein, 12g carbs, 3g fat
-1 tbsp, natural PB: 100 calories, 4.5g protein, 3g carbs, 8g fat
-1 whole egg: 70calories, 6g protein, 1g carbs, 4.5g fat
SUBTOTALS: 370 calories, 40.5g protein, 16g carbs , 15.5g fat
TOTALS: 3076.75 calories, 344.15g protein, 226.43g carbs, 85.03g fat
45.17% protein 29.72% carbs 25.11% fat
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to David1991)
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