RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld me about creatine
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/22/2006 6:26:57 PM
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steverandoll
Posts: 140
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Canada Qc
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creatine is a really good sup when it comes to muscle buiding
it improve muscle/fat ratio and phisical performance when doing intense and short time exercise only (sprint weight lifting).
thought creatine is not effective for those who practices endurance sports because it raise risk of dehydratation and cramp (marathon cross country skiing) though it seems not to work for women ( no scientifical proof of improving muscle size and muscle/fat ratio)
creatine seems to have no side effect on healthy people though many scientist think that we should do more long term study on this supp (moreover we dont have a lot of research on the effect of creatine on pregnant women or children)
creatine comsumption cause water retention in muscle to avoid the dehydratation of the other non muscular tissues
i recommand to dring around 1.8 liter of water per day (for a regular creatine supp intake of 2-3 gramms per day)
older person are susceptible to take creatine to prevent muscle loss though because of their weak health it is more risky for them to use these supps notably for the kidney (thought this is the same for a execive aspirine intake)
those who have kidney problem or those who are diabetic should not take creatine exept if under medical supervision
it can also cause muscle cramp , intestinal pain, nausea, and diarrhea
weve seen some case of convultion ,few heart problem, veinal trombosis , intense muscle degeneration , and kidney problem though the link between these symptom and creatine as not yet been established but prudence is advised
a big caffeine intake can cancel the creatine benefit
if youre taking drug the is toxic for youre kidney creatine is not recommended
creatine can improve the negative side effect of ephedrine and cafeine mixe
if you want more info on creatine or if u need my reference
just let me know.
**ps ive been on creatine for 8 month for now on and no problem with it ever since
_____________________________
No PH NO S*** Forever clean
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22 y/o
375bench 1reps
385 squat 5reps
440 dead lift 1 reps
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/22/2006 8:41:53 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6020
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Creatine is a nutrient and is close to being listed as an essential nutrient.
quote:
thought creatine is not effective for those who practices endurance sports because it raise risk of dehydratation and cramp (marathon cross country skiing)
It is not as beneficial for these athletes but it still has benefits and their creatine phosphate stystems still supply short bursts of energy!
quote:
though it seems not to work for women ( no scientifical proof of improving muscle size and muscle/fat ratio)
This is wrong. Studies show it is effective in women who do short intense training.
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creatine seems to have no side effect on healthy people though many scientist think that we should do more long term study on this supp (moreover we dont have a lot of research on the effect of creatine on pregnant women or children)
There ARE long term studies.
quote:
older person are susceptible to take creatine to prevent muscle loss though because of their weak health it is more risky for them to use these supps notably for the kidney (thought this is the same for a execive aspirine intake)
Creatine supplementation in elderly is showing so many benefits it is stunning.
Come on Steve...get with the modern research!!!
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(in reply to steverandoll)
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/23/2006 4:20:52 AM
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steverandoll
Posts: 140
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From: Canada Qc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Long and short term clinical research on Creatine and liver function shows absolutley NO effect on liver function.
creatine is synthetise by liver
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212lbs
22 y/o
375bench 1reps
385 squat 5reps
440 dead lift 1 reps
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/23/2006 4:22:25 AM
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steverandoll
Posts: 140
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From: Canada Qc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
It is in food, it is soon likely to be declared an essential nutrient.
no it is not
_____________________________
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375bench 1reps
385 squat 5reps
440 dead lift 1 reps
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/23/2006 4:24:13 AM
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steverandoll
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The liver is not involved in pure supplement or food based creatine use.
[/quote]
yes it is synthetise in liver kidney and pancreas
_____________________________
No PH NO S*** Forever clean
212lbs
22 y/o
375bench 1reps
385 squat 5reps
440 dead lift 1 reps
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/23/2006 7:08:29 AM
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durandalinfinity
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that and Creatine's aid in neurological disorders is also very intersting
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/23/2006 9:46:59 AM
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footballfinatic
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maybe you tell your cousin to be a defense lawyer he is good at making things up
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/23/2006 11:14:07 AM
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danmirage
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Hey Steve,
You are making yourself very clear and so I would say your English is fine!
I would not say we are wholly disagreeing as much as clarifying...the research and what is known about Creatine is a growing body of knowledge in place already...so we are not really discussing personal opinions...we are discussing our interaction with this body of knowledge.
Just to be clear..my interest is in the study and application of sports physiology and performance and sports nutrition.
I have not read all of the over 500 published studies and even what I have read seems cursory.
In answer to your question, I am not a sales person. I am a trainer and consultant.
For my information I rely on research, texts, published articles by accepted experts, peer reviewed articles, lectures and discussions with and by experts in the field of Sports and related research...such as Wayne Wescott and William Kraemer.
I admit, my understanding of the cellular "mechanics" of Creatine supplementation vs Synthesis is not absolute..my understanding is...
For instance, that Creatine is synthesized (meaning assembled from parts) from the amino acids glycine, arginine and methionine in the kidneys, liver and pancreas. Free Creatine circulates in blood and in muscle tissue, where it can be converted to Phospho-Creatine with the transfer of a phosphate group or contribute a phosphate group to make ATP
ADP + PCr + H+ <---> ATP + Cr .
The body appears to have a target level for circulating Creatine, and ingestion or supplementation reduces synthesis by the body. There also appears to be a balance between intracellular Creatine (about 60%) and Creatine circulating in blood (about 40%.) Within a few days of supplementation, intracellular Cr levels reach a new equilibrium level. A much smaller fraction of this additional Creatine appears to be stored in the high-energy phosphocreatine form.
The supplemental Creatine is not synthesized in the kidneys, liver and pancreas, it is supplied.
Then, Creatine is eliminated through the kidneys...in a volume equivalent to 1-3g/day in non supplementation or roughly equal to the amount supplemented...as creatine or creatinine.
Because Creatine is eliminated through the Kidney it has been believed there may be some risk to the kidney from supplementation, however to my knowledge there has not been any research which actually showed people with normal kidney function having any indicators of adverse kidney function. Naturally higher intake of Creatine increases kidney involvement.
Studies like, "Long-term Creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes." Mol Cell Biochem. 2003 Feb;244(1-2):95-104. Have found no clinical markers for long term (21-month) use in athletes. According to Dr. Kreider and coworkers, when compared to the group of football players who did not take Creatine, the football players who took Creatine actually had fewer episodes of cramping, dehydration, muscle tightness, muscle pulls and strains, non-contact joint injuries, contact injuries, illness, number of missed practices due to injury, players lost for the season, and total injuries or missed practices.
Now, You are saying Creatine is NOT a nutrient found in food?
That is like saying amino acids in protein are not found in food.
Creatine occurs naturally in fish and meat, and is found in skeletal muscle, heart, brain, retina, testes and the uterus....etc.
When you take it away, function declines, when you return it to the diet, function returns.
There is some discussion about making it an essential nutrient....you feel that is not valid?
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quote:
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though it seems not to work for women ( no scientifical proof of improving muscle size and muscle/fat ratio)
This is wrong. Studies show it is effective in women who do short intense training.
what do you mean by effective studies show that it is not for improving muscle size and muscle/fat ratio
To quote a meta-analysis
Effect of Creatine supplementation on body composition and performance: a meta-analysis.
Branch JD., J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2003 Jun;13(2):198-226
"There were no differences from Creatine supplementation on effect size for body composition or performance between males and females or between trained and untrained subjects. There is no evidence in the literature of an effect of gender or training status on effect size following Creatine supplementation."
You know, I could probably pull out study after study that included women that show that female lifters experience similar training effects from Creatine supplementation.
There is a brief discussion of the importance of supplementation, including Creatine, for women strength athletes...
Nutritional Aspects of Women Strength Athletes.
Volek JS, Forsythe CE, Kraemer WJ.
Br J Sports Med. 2006 Jul 19;
You know that women's physiology is nearly the same and the difference in most subjects would be the amount of muscle in which to store Creatine, or the relative volume of Type IIb Glycolytic and Type IIa Oxidative/Glycolytic muscle fiber.
quote:
quote:
It is not as beneficial for these athletes but it still has benefits and their Creatine phosphate systems still supply short bursts of energy!
yeah but this effect only goes after training so it is useless while doing marathon and other endurance sport
During the sprint at the beginning and end of a bike race or other long distance race...the ATP will be called upon and the Creatine phosphate system will be critical to the performance of that sprint.
Performance enhancement is what this athlete would look for, not increase in muscle mass...
quote:
whats youre point now
I was surprised that you expressed "Creatine is not effective for those who practices endurance sports" especially due to the risks you mentioned.
I was surprised that you expressed that "it seems not to work for women (no scientifical proof of improving muscle size and muscle/fat ratio)"
Are you a researcher, student, etc..please tell me how you come to be a "student" of performance nutrition science?
I hope this conversation seems to be along the lines of a reasonable conversation/debate...I am happy we are having this as it gives me a chance to check my clarity/accuracy...you know, when you talk to most lay people they just want the sound-bite and it is hard to give in-depth and clear info in a short burst!!!
It is unfortunate that you would say "Anyway im just wandering why you post bulls*** like this OMG and youve got 3620 post" Especially as I can relate all my comments to peer reviewed, published research. 
< Message edited by danmirage -- 8/23/2006 1:06:25 PM >
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Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to durandalinfinity)
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/23/2006 1:37:27 PM
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GyM RaT
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/24/2006 12:30:38 PM
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steverandoll
Posts: 140
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Canada Qc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
Hey Steve,
You are making yourself very clear and so I would say your English is fine!
I would not say we are wholly disagreeing as much as clarifying...the research and what is known about Creatine is a growing body of knowledge in place already...so we are not really discussing personal opinions...we are discussing our interaction with this body of knowledge.
yeah i think the same it my just be misunderstanding of what we said both
for exemple i didnt say that creatine wasnt present in food (this is basic info) i said (if you read carefully (no offense mean)) that it wasnt going to become a essential nutrient any day soon
quote:
Just to be clear..my interest is in the study and application of sports physiology and performance and sports nutrition.
I have not read all of the over 500 published studies and even what I have read seems cursory.
In answer to your question, I am not a sales person. I am a trainer and consultant.
trainer as i am we might be colleague after all
quote:
Because Creatine is eliminated through the Kidney it has been believed there may be some risk to the kidney from supplementation, however to my knowledge there has not been any research which actually showed people with normal kidney function having any indicators of adverse kidney function. Naturally higher intake of Creatine increases kidney involvement.
this was due to increase of creatinine in blood (one of a sign of kidney difonction) though those with normal kidney fonction have no problem elimianting this. And that why it is not recommended to those with kidney problem who would have proble eliminating creatinine. i guess this is all misunderstanding on basics again .
quote:
Studies like, "Long-term Creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes." Mol Cell Biochem. 2003 Feb;244(1-2):95-104. Have found no clinical markers for long term (21-month) use in athletes. According to Dr. Kreider and coworkers, when compared to the group of football players who did not take Creatine, the football players who took Creatine actually had fewer episodes of cramping, dehydration, muscle tightness, muscle pulls and strains, non-contact joint injuries, contact injuries, illness, number of missed practices due to injury, players lost for the season, and total injuries or missed practices.
as i said in previous post i admit the benefit of creatine supp ( im taking creatine supp since 8 month) though what i dont like about creatine researches is that they have MOSLTY been made on less than 40 subject group and often been made on less than 25 subject group.
quote:
When you take it away, function declines, when you return it to the diet, function returns.There is some discussion about making it an essential nutrient....you feel that is not valid?
An essential nutrient is a nutrient required for NORMAL body functioning that CANNOT be synthesized by the body.
quote:
though it seems not to work for women ( no scientifical proof of improving muscle size and muscle/fat ratio)
This is wrong. Studies show it is effective in women who do short intense training.
what do you mean by effective studies show that it is not for improving muscle size and muscle/fat ratio
To quote a meta-analysis
Effect of Creatine supplementation on body composition and performance: a meta-analysis.
Branch JD., J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2003 Jun;13(2):198-226
"There were no differences from Creatine supplementation on effect size for body composition or performance between males and females or between trained and untrained subjects. There is no evidence in the literature of an effect of gender or training status on effect size following Creatine supplementation."
You know, I could probably pull out study after study that included women that show that female lifters experience similar training effects from Creatine supplementation.
There is a brief discussion of the importance of supplementation, including Creatine, for women strength athletes...
Nutritional Aspects of Women Strength Athletes.
Volek JS, Forsythe CE, Kraemer WJ.
Br J Sports Med. 2006 Jul 19;
You know that women's physiology is nearly the same and the difference in most subjects would be the amount of muscle in which to store Creatine, or the relative volume of Type IIb Glycolytic and Type IIa Oxidative/Glycolytic muscle fiber.
Department of Exercise Science and Athletic Training, Creighton University, Omaha, NE 68178, USA. eckerson@creighton.edu
The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of 2 and 5 days of Cr loading on anaerobic working capacity (AWC) using the critical power (CP) test in women. Ten physically active women randomly received 2 treatments separated by a 5 week washout period: (A) 18 g dextrose as placebo (PL) or (B) 5.0 g Cr + 18 g dextrose taken 4 times per day for 5 days. Following a familiarization trial, each subject completed the CP test at baseline and following 2 and 5 days of supplementation. The PL resulted in no significant changes in AWC following supplementation; however, Cr increased AWC by 22.1% after 5 days of loading (p < 0.05). There was a significant main effect for body weight (BW), however, there was no significant increase in BW due to Cr supplementation. These results suggest that Cr supplementation is effective for increasing AWC in women following 5 days of loading without an associated increase in BW.
Department of Kinesiology at The College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795, USA.
Creatine monohydrate (CrH2O) supplementation has been demonstrated to increase skeletal muscle power output in men. However, its effect upon women is not as clearly defined. This study investigated the effect of oral creatine supplementation upon muscle function, thigh circumference, and body weight in women. Twenty-two consenting college-age women were assigned to 1 of 2 groups matched for dietary and exercise habits, phase of menstrual cycle, and fat-free mass (FFM). After familiarization with testing procedures, pretrial measures of muscle function (5 repetitions 60 deg x s(-1) and 50 repetitions 180 deg x s(-1) were conducted during maximal voluntary concentric contraction of the preferred quadriceps muscle using an isokinetic dynamometer. Subjects then ingested 0.5 g x kg(-1) FFM of either CrH2O or placebo (one fourth dosage 4 times daily) in a double-blind design for 5 days. Resistance exercise was prohibited. After the ingestion phase was completed, all measures were repeated at the same time of day as during pretrials. Statistical analysis revealed time to peak torque in quadriceps extension decreased from pre-test values of 255 +/- 11 ms (mean +/- SEM) to post-test values of 223 +/- 3 ms; average power in extension increased from 103 +/- 7 W pre-test to 112 +/- 7 W post-test; and, during flexion, average power increased from 59 +/- 5 W pre-test to 65 +/- 5 W post-test in the creatine group as compared to controls (p .05). FFM, percent body fat, mid-quadriceps circumference, skinfold thickness of the measured thigh, and total body weight did not change for both groups between trials. We conclude that CrH2O improves muscle performance in women without significant gains in muscle volume or body weight.
i had hard times translating my words in english (i used internet dictionnairy like 50 times in the last days makes me practice though) that what justify this copy paste researches wich are very interesting.
quote:
quote:
It is not as beneficial for these athletes but it still has benefits and their Creatine phosphate systems still supply short bursts of energy!
yeah but this effect only goes after training so it is useless while doing marathon and other endurance sport
quote:
During the sprint at the beginning and end of a bike race or other long distance race...the ATP will be called upon and the Creatine phosphate system will be critical to the performance of that sprint.
Performance enhancement is what this athlete would look for, not increase in muscle mass...
The phosphocreatine stored in skeletal muscle is a forerunner of ATP wich provide energy to muscle cell. The increase of creatine level in body favour the renewal of ATP during short and intense training and accelerate synthesis of phosphocreatine AFTER WORKOUT.
Centro de Investigacion y Medicina del Deporte, Gobierno de Navarra, Navarra, Spain. mizquierdo@jet.es
PURPOSE: To determine the effects of creatine (Cr) supplementation (20 g x d(-1) during 5 d) on maximal strength, muscle power production during repetitive high-power-output exercise bouts (MRPB), repeated running sprints, and endurance in handball players. METHODS: Nineteen trained male handball players were randomly assigned in a double-blind fashion to either creatine (N = 9) or placebo (N = 10) group. Before and after supplementation, subjects performed one-repetition maximum half-squat (1RM(HS) and bench press (1RM(BP)), 2 sets of MRPB consisting of one set of 10 continuous repetitions (R10) followed by 1 set until exhaustion (R(max)), with exactly 2-min rest periods between each set, during bench-press and half-squat protocols with a resistance equal to 60 and 70% of the subjects' 1RM, respectively. In addition, a countermovement jumping test (CMJ) interspersed before and after the MRPB half-squat exercise bouts and a repeated sprint running test and a maximal multistage discontinuous incremental running test (MDRT) were performed. RESULTS: Cr supplementation significantly increased body mass (from 79.4 +/- 8 to 80 +/- 8 kg; P < 0.05), number of repetitions performed to fatigue, and total average power output values in the R(max) set of MRPB during bench press (21% and 17%, respectively) and half-squat (33% and 20%, respectively), the 1RM(HS) (11%), as well as the CMJ values after the MRPB half-squat (5%), and the average running times during the first 5 m of the six repeated 15-m sprints (3%). No changes were observed in the strength, running velocity, or body mass measures in the placebo group during the experimental period. CONCLUSION: Short-term Cr supplementation leads to significant improvements in lower-body maximal strength, maximal repetitive upper- and lower-body high-power exercise bouts, and total repetitions performed to fatigue in the R(max) set of MRPB, as well as enhanced repeated sprint performance and attenuated decline in jumping ability after MRPB in highly trained handball players. Cr supplementation did not result in any improvement in upper-body maximal strength and in endurance running performance.
interesting isnt it...........
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Are you a researcher, student, etc..please tell me how you come to be a "student" of performance nutrition science?
i become a "student" of nutrition science scince my girlfriend is studing biologie in university plus shes working in a pharmaceutic lab. moreover since im a trainer i HAVE to get answer to all question related to the sport (im sure u know what i mean)
quote:
I hope this conversation seems to be along the lines of a reasonable conversation/debate...I am happy we are having this as it gives me a chance to check my clarity/accuracy...you know, when you talk to most lay people they just want the sound-bite and it is hard to give in-depth and clear info in a short burst!!!
I feel the same. though i think that the sound-bite we just wanted to give in the previous post lead to a lot of misunderstanding and a need to clarify it all.
quote:
It is unfortunate that you would say "Anyway im just wandering why you post bulls*** like this OMG and youve got 3620 post" Especially as I can relate all my comments to peer reviewed, published research.
As you and i said before i guess it was just misunderstanding i didnt mean any offense. maybe i was just off a bad day for that i hope you accept my apologize
realizing that those 3620 post were made to help people out
_____________________________
No PH NO S*** Forever clean
212lbs
22 y/o
375bench 1reps
385 squat 5reps
440 dead lift 1 reps
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/24/2006 12:33:59 PM
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steverandoll
Posts: 140
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Canada Qc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GyM RaT
owned
thanx for providing us your opinion i guess we are learning something out of this judicious post
_____________________________
No PH NO S*** Forever clean
212lbs
22 y/o
375bench 1reps
385 squat 5reps
440 dead lift 1 reps
(in reply to GyM RaT)
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/24/2006 2:50:47 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6020
Joined: 11/20/2005
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Apology accepted. There are a lot of people giving bad information out there. Even here.
quote:
We conclude that CrH2O improves muscle performance in women without significant gains in muscle volume or body weight.
quote:
These results suggest that Cr supplementation is effective for increasing AWC in women following 5 days of loading without an associated increase in BW.
The results with the women are as one would expect, except for with women with a larger BW from FFM. We know that it is the Type IIb muscle fibers that would "volumize" with Cr supplementation and most women who are not strength athletes have smaller TypeIIb muscle mass.
quote:
Cr supplementation did not result in any improvement in upper-body maximal strength and in endurance running performance.
Also as we would expect. Improvement in the Sprint but not the endurance run.
However, if they sprinted at the start or finish of the run, they would engage the CrP energy system and there would likely be improvement.
quote:
An essential nutrient is a nutrient required for NORMAL body functioning that CANNOT be synthesized by the body.
Running through all essential nutrients..this does not hold quite true...we establish certain things as conditionally essential. I have only loosely followed the conversation about it becoming a "recognized" nutrient...I will find out more.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to steverandoll)
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RE: what my older couzin whos going to b a doctor tld m... - 8/24/2006 3:38:06 PM
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steverandoll
Posts: 140
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Canada Qc
Status: offline
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quote:
You never know, I may have misread something or never come accross something..or be totally wrong and get told! I am always open to refine my knowledge and learn more.
Just as i am. Still i hope i made you doubt about youre info and knowledge as i was doubting about mine . i really enjoy argu with you . especially because it was the first time that i argu without being on the pro creatine side. Still im a creatine fan and i always recommand it to my client.
_____________________________
No PH NO S*** Forever clean
212lbs
22 y/o
375bench 1reps
385 squat 5reps
440 dead lift 1 reps
(in reply to danmirage)
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