RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!!
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[Poll]
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3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!!
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| Whey, creatine, muscle milk |
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| Whey, Creatine, Glutamine |
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| WHey, Test boost, Glutamine |
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| Creatine, NO Supp, Whey |
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| Muscle Milk, Whey, NO Supp |
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| Whey, PH/Roids, On cycle supps |
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| Whey, Ephedra, creatine |
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| Whey, Ecdysterone, creatine |
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| Whey, creatine, BCAA's |
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Total Votes : 56
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(last vote on : 9/17/2006 1:45:50 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/9/2006 8:34:30 AM
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ShaqAtack
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I don't have time to explain ALL the important functions of glutamine. You could read up on the huge importance of the conditionally-essential amino acid for the average joe body, and subsequently even more for bodybuilders who lift weights.
Steve, I really wish you'd stop with the unfounded claims about nutrients or their "worthlessness". Please, in th future inform people it is your opinion. I don't see any of your colleagues instructing people on what nutrients are garbage and not worth our time. Why don't you, like your colleagues, just talk about YOUR supplements and what they may offer the public or simply respond to other's questions rather than seeing someone considers NO or Glutamine one of the essential three, and impose your thoughts about how what they're doing is worthless without their asking.
I'm sure you have a couple worthwhile supplements, so talk about those. Why must you tell everyone what is garbage or not worth our time, particularly when you're doing a disservice to them telling them glutamine is garbage. Glutamine is the most important regulatory amino acid (but it's also a major workhorse) in the body, so essential that the body has to make sure it gets enough by making it. Stress and weightlifting hugely depletes it.
I've examined hundreds of bodybuilders, both in a clinical setting and at the university, who have developed skin problems and allergies due to a leaky intestine and extra supplementary glutamine was the MISSING LINK. Not only did it repair their intestine, but they gained an average of 5 pounds more muscle in two weeks than they would have not on glutamine, and their incidence of infection after exercise dramatically lowered.
The absorption and bioavailability of dietary glutamine is poor from meats (60%). The highest abosorbable glutamine is a combination of soy (an alkaline protein, like milk, which aids in absorption) and wheat. And I bet most bodybuilders don't make soy a regular part of their meals. Eggs and milk contain absorbable glutamine, however not as many grams as soy. amd certainly not as many as a bodybuilder needs, so you'd have to eat a LOT of eggs to achieve the same thing.
It was interesting you said you deal in fact, not fiction, implying that I, in fact, deal with fiction. I mean, please be diplomatic, rather than sarcastic. Me saying something you said is ridiculous is not an assassination of your character, but highlighting the unnecessity of you imposing your opnions on everybody, particularly opinions that could have serious repercussions for their health while weight-training (avoiding glutamine). I don't believe I've ever discussed bodily systems without being factual on this board. In fact, I have a degree on my wall that says I understand them pretty well.
< Message edited by ShaqAtack -- 5/9/2006 8:40:05 AM >
(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/9/2006 8:42:15 AM
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SkInnYTwiG
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So what twin peak is saying is.. A BBing glutamine supp is garbage??
And Robboe says injectable glutamine is good.. Think we can clear this up on this thread?
(in reply to ShaqAtack)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/9/2006 9:22:04 AM
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ShaqAtack
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Steve is perhaps referring to (in his smug, sarcastic, know-it-all way) L-glutamine being ripped apart into glutamic acid in the digestive process which is why many supplements put in glutamine peptide which is more stable. BCAA's are a large part of what forms your muscle proteins, however glutamine gives the body what it needs to heal itself and rebuild the muscles. Just because glutamine doesn't immediately bypass the liver and go directly to the muscles in the way BCAA's do, does not mean they're any less important for building muscle. Glutamine restores health, improves the intestine, (which in turn aids in absorption of other bodybuilding nutrients), detoxifies ammonia, regulates your neurotransmitters, builds one of your most important bodily antioxidants, assists the liver and kidneys in keeping your blood pH at 7.4, regulates protein synthesis in the muscles, is a nitrogen transporter throughout the body to provide nitrogen where it is needed, I could go on..... I wish all my garbage would restore my health the way glutamine can!....grin.
(in reply to SkInnYTwiG)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/9/2006 10:29:27 AM
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Robboe
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Steve actually has a point. There is no positive research into athletes using glutamine orally (that i have seen - correct me if you have something new because up until now i an unconvinced) that indicates using glutamine is worth while.
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(in reply to ShaqAtack)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/9/2006 10:31:39 AM
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Robboe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SkInnYTwiG
So what twin peak is saying is.. A BBing glutamine supp is garbage??
And Robboe says injectable glutamine is good.. Think we can clear this up on this thread?
I was kinda joking. A lot of the research showing glutamine being a great anti-catabolic compound was done using IV treatment on burns victims (and some marathon runners, but it escapes me whether they were IV or orally administered).
Basically, anyway to improve the amount of glutamine that makes it through the intestines into the bloodstream (the epithilial cells take the majority of it up) would improve the compound for athletes. Whether or not it would have any significant bearing on strength, muscle mass or the like remains to be seen though.
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(in reply to SkInnYTwiG)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/9/2006 12:30:18 PM
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ShaqAtack
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Hi Robboe. Are you contending that glutamine is not absorbed through the intestinal walls because of the epithelial cells prevent its absorption? How much bloodwork have you done to prove that, under what conditions were they tested, and in what form of supplemental Glutamine did you measure? We've done a lot of bloodwork too which proved just the opposite. We tested half the subjects on Glutamine Alpha-Ketoglutaurate and half on the free amino acid, we ensured they were not vitamin D deficient and had adequate FOS, and subsequently, we tested there was significat absorption in both cases (65-70% in general), however the results were slightly better for the Alpha-Ketoglutaurate.
What nature has done to increase absorption are provided organic acids, citrates from fruits and vegetables, malates from apples, lactates from milk, and fructooligosaccharides (which feed bacteria to help small intestine absorption), to help keep the nutrient radicals ionized even as they pass through the alkali duodenum.
Once nutrients are ionized, vitamin D (the intestine has Vitamind D-receptors) roots itself deep in the intestinal wall, leaving its negative oxygen end exposed at the surface, and so it's perfect for magneticaly attracting the positive polar end of nutrient radicals and pulling them through the intestinal wall and the bacteria also have their say in assisting absoption.
By providing anions that help solubility (alpha-ketoglutaurates attempt to do this, or you could consume milk, yogurt, or apple juice with the glutamine) along with the glutamine, it will enhance its absorption through the intestine. While the vitamin D is important for absorbing minerals first-off, it also increases absorption of other nutrients by over 100%. I would suspect a lack of absorption of glutamine in your tests (if you've done any) is due to lack of anions present with the glutamine, a poor intestinal bacteria profile, and a vitamin D deficiency.
Another factor is that when you consume many nutrients, the HCl turns them into salt. if you put salt on meat, it is preserved. That is because salt kills microbes. When you build up salt in your intestine, you can put your good bacteria to sleep. Thus, you must reaplce the bacteria with yogurt and by feeding them FOS. This and the vitamin D will enhance the absorption of all nutrients.
< Message edited by ShaqAtack -- 5/9/2006 12:34:07 PM >
(in reply to Robboe)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/9/2006 1:55:24 PM
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SkInnYTwiG
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I'd like to see a response for this.. I'm curious :)
My pick would be whey, creatine, glutamine
:) So this is something important for me to have an understanding of from different views
(in reply to ShaqAtack)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/9/2006 9:29:56 PM
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Twin Peak
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Shaq, you make some interesting points, and perhaps I could have stated my position a bit more clearly. I will do so now:
Glutamine is a highly inefficient, ineffective and cost prohibitive dietary supplement for bodybuilders.
1) There is no real evidence (save anecdotal) that glutamine increases muscular gains or fat loss. The anecdotal evidence is sketchy at best, and there is a ton of bad anecdotal evidence, including my own. The only double blind studies showing positive effects are on burn victims and/or involve injectible glutamine.
2) It is true that glutamine offers some benefits, they are just cost-prohibitive, in my opinion. It is certainly beneficial for gut health, improved PH, etc. But there are better ways (in my opinion) and more cost effective ways to deal with that.
As a separate matter, I apologize for implying that you normally speak in fiction. That was not my intent. Indeed, if I have read 5 posts from you, that would be a lot. Rather, my comment was in response to most people who praise the worthiness of glutamine and their "believe" that it will increase muscle gains.
As a yet separate matter, I am a bit disappointed about your implication that I speak badly of a nutrient because we don't sell it. Or that that I do so in an effort to draw attention to our products. That is silly. Please feel free to call me stupid, or uneducated, even a pompous ass is fine, but please do not imply I am not ethical.
To the contrary, I post all the time about ingredients and products that we do not sell in a positive light.
Moreover, I don't take kindly to your statement that I should contain my posts to DS products. I was a moderator on this board long before I had heard of DS. I have a duty to this board to speak up when I deem it appropriate.
On yet a seperate matter, while you seem quite knowledgable on this topic, I can't help but wonder whether your comments are anything more than anecdotal evidence. For example, you talk about certain people gaining 5 pounds more than if they did not take glutamine. How do you know this? Was it a controlled study? More information is necessary for us to assess all of your claims.
Finally, you say that glutamine will only be effective under very specific circumstances. I wonder if these circumstances would apply to our average supplement user? Conversely, perhaps that may explain the wide variance in anecdotal feedback? I really do not know, and am asking.
Finally, Finally, I am actually quite glad you posted in this thread, and post on this board.
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(in reply to SkInnYTwiG)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/10/2006 1:21:45 AM
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Robboe
Posts: 908
Joined: 6/9/2003
From: Newcastle, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShaqAtack
Hi Robboe. Are you contending that glutamine is not absorbed through the intestinal walls because of the epithelial cells prevent its absorption? How much bloodwork have you done to prove that, under what conditions were they tested, and in what form of supplemental Glutamine did you measure? We've done a lot of bloodwork too which proved just the opposite. We tested half the subjects on Glutamine Alpha-Ketoglutaurate and half on the free amino acid, we ensured they were not vitamin D deficient and had adequate FOS, and subsequently, we tested there was significat absorption in both cases (65-70% in general), however the results were slightly better for the Alpha-Ketoglutaurate.
What nature has done to increase absorption are provided organic acids, citrates from fruits and vegetables, malates from apples, lactates from milk, and fructooligosaccharides (which feed bacteria to help small intestine absorption), to help keep the nutrient radicals ionized even as they pass through the alkali duodenum.
Once nutrients are ionized, vitamin D (the intestine has Vitamind D-receptors) roots itself deep in the intestinal wall, leaving its negative oxygen end exposed at the surface, and so it's perfect for magneticaly attracting the positive polar end of nutrient radicals and pulling them through the intestinal wall and the bacteria also have their say in assisting absoption.
By providing anions that help solubility (alpha-ketoglutaurates attempt to do this, or you could consume milk, yogurt, or apple juice with the glutamine) along with the glutamine, it will enhance its absorption through the intestine. While the vitamin D is important for absorbing minerals first-off, it also increases absorption of other nutrients by over 100%. I would suspect a lack of absorption of glutamine in your tests (if you've done any) is due to lack of anions present with the glutamine, a poor intestinal bacteria profile, and a vitamin D deficiency.
Another factor is that when you consume many nutrients, the HCl turns them into salt. if you put salt on meat, it is preserved. That is because salt kills microbes. When you build up salt in your intestine, you can put your good bacteria to sleep. Thus, you must reaplce the bacteria with yogurt and by feeding them FOS. This and the vitamin D will enhance the absorption of all nutrients.
Thanks for the lesson. I have done no blood work. I am not a scientist. I have just read enough research into glutamine to reserve judgement into the compound.
Anyhoo, by 65-70% absorption, you mean this percentage made it through to the bloodstream, correct?
I have read bits and pieces of research in various journals about the use of glutamine orally showing no effect on muscle mass or strength. IIRC they used free form glutamine, which leads me to believe that even if there is 70% absorption, its not doing a whole lot.
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Believe the Hype
(in reply to ShaqAtack)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/10/2006 8:28:37 AM
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ShaqAtack
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Twin Peak
As a yet separate matter, I am a bit disappointed about your implication that I speak badly of a nutrient because we don't sell it. Or that that I do so in an effort to draw attention to our products. That is silly. Please feel free to call me stupid, or uneducated, even a pompous ass is fine, but please do not imply I am not ethical.
To the contrary, I post all the time about ingredients and products that we do not sell in a positive light.
Moreover, I don't take kindly to your statement that I should contain my posts to DS products. I was a moderator on this board long before I had heard of DS. I have a duty to this board to speak up when I deem it appropriate.
Hi Steve. Please speak up when you feel appropriate. I was only looking at your statement, not you. I didn't even think that it was only to sell your supplements in the slightest. I'm sure you even have some form of glutamine in one of your products there right?
All I was saying was, when I knew and others knew (in controlled clinical studies, and I know of one or two double-blind that I could post beyond the one you state) that glutamine shows a positive benefit for lifters and then you say it is garbage......I mean, do you really think it was necessary to say that, when no one asked your opinion of it? It was initially a poll on what "others" thought were the three most important. There's an old saying "You do what you do, and I'll do what I do." If you're trying to save them money, you're not their parent it's not your job. That was kind of my impression from the comment. I mean if they ask you what the most cost-effective supplements are, then of course answer and even point to yours if you want. To your comment, I would have maybe just grinned and wouldn't have responded at all though if I didn't know what I know about glutamine.
I do know that you address nutrients and scientific matters much more often than products which is more than I could say for many other companies. I already knew that about you, and hopefully never implied it was your only goal on this forum.
Lastly, to address your last quoted paragraph, you bring up a very good point. I initially came here because I knew some knowledgeable supplement makers sometimes probe the supplement forums and I have been prompted by companies to help formulate products. I just wanted to get into the groove a little bit and see where the latest supplement research is leading. Because naturally, supplement research is far quicker than generalized scientific or even sports science research! However, that usually means the research is lacking the multiple-person double-blinds, which are the most expensive studies. So that is why I'm here. And to be honest I had no idea about who the moderators are, or what your affiliation is with designer supplements is. So I kind of "made myself at home" before getting to know everyone or what this forum is about. So I think it's important I get to know everyone better first.
(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/10/2006 8:56:00 AM
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ShaqAtack
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robboe
Thanks for the lesson. I have done no blood work. I am not a scientist. I have just read enough research into glutamine to reserve judgement into the compound.
Anyhoo, by 65-70% absorption, you mean this percentage made it through to the bloodstream, correct?
I have read bits and pieces of research in various journals about the use of glutamine orally showing no effect on muscle mass or strength. IIRC they used free form glutamine, which leads me to believe that even if there is 70% absorption, its not doing a whole lot.
You're welcome. I just wanted to highlight the absorption mechanisms. That was my feeling about you and Steve as well, that you two weren't scientists, but read a LOT of scientific literature (you impressed me by knowing the technical jargon of 'epithelial cells' which scientists use often). So maybe we could say you both are amateur chemistry and biology buffs who are up to date with the research going on around them.
Yes 65-70 percent was the "average" aborption rate into the blood stream. Had we not looked into the other absorption factors, I'm sure the numbers would be down to 20-25 percent. You see, most weightlifters eat a lot of meat, and eating meat is a sure-fire way to alter your intestinal bacteria profile. As babies, most healthy infants have a perfect bacteria profile and the sugars fructose and lactose (milk, yogurt and fruits) feed the good bacteria, and if that's all the infant ate, and it got into the sun regularly, it's digestion would remain in its high absorption state. But alas, many people eat meat which is not bad if done in moderation. Intaking eggs and fish will keep the intestine much cleaner (due to their absorption rate) than the common flesh meats.
The glutamine is ideally delivered if beans and grains (such as soy and wheat) are consumed together in combination with some sort of fruit, vegetables, or milk. The anions of those foods will provide alkalinity (because of all the calcium in soy and milk) but also solubility because the anions keep the nutrients ionized rather than have them precipitate out undigested. For instance, if you eat red meat, which contains a lot of phosphates, and drink a glass of milk, in the gut it will form lactates and phosphates, and so some of the calcium will bond to the phosphates (forming Calcium Phosphate) "before" it's absorbed. If you're familiar with bones, it's primarily calcium phosphate. So it forms a bony precipitate at the strength of the acid in the stomach (stronger acids could possibly ionize it), rather than staying ionized. So that describes how anions affect solubility. I think the "modern" Glutamine Alpha ketoglutaurate is the next best thing to the above method. I wouldn't endorse the free amino acid necessarily.
Lastly, directed to both you and Steve. How about, some day soon when I find time, I write a new thread on glutamine directed at you and you questions about the research. I will then post some studies for your reference, and maybe a link to a couple full articles. Perhaps it could answer a few of your questions.
(in reply to Robboe)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/10/2006 9:39:15 AM
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Robboe
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You could do that if you liked, but overall i don't have a whole lot of questions or in fact any real interest in the compound. There has been no significantly compelling reseach performed since i last looked into it so you'd have to really wow me to make me want to take notice. A few years back i used to have motivation to try and dispell the idea that glutamine is a necessity or an important supplement, but these days i am happy to let be what will be.
That said, feel free to get me links to the 1-2 double-blind trials you spoke of to Steve. This GAK you've mentioned may be a good thing for getting it past the intestinal wall, but once in the blood stream, i am still unconvinced it will do much with regards to strength or mass to warrant the cost of it (even if it is dirt cheap).
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(in reply to ShaqAtack)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/10/2006 12:42:11 PM
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Twin Peak
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I would simply add that Rob, and more so me, represent the business side of Designer Supplements -- not the formulations side of things. So yes, while we have internal scientists, chem experts, and such (including the founder and principal owner), we are not them. We are just "fitness and health enthusiasts." I should also add that Rob is way more well read and versed in the scientific literature than I am.
But I am bigger than Rob.
As to my final point, if I see people speaking highly of a compound that I believe to be junk, I will state so. It matters not if my opinion was asked. As a moderator, that is my job. And if I am in err about something (its been known to happen once every ten years or so) and its pointed out, I will gladly retract my comment. My mind is not a closed one.
So in that vain, if you do have evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy for you to prove me wrong (no, none of our products have glutamine in them, prove me wrong, and maybe that will change).
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(in reply to Robboe)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/10/2006 5:14:07 PM
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ShaqAtack
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I'll be the first to admit that BCAA's are far more important for building muscle mass (when considering bang for buck), and they also help to restore glutamine levels in the body.
However glutamine supplements are VERY "medicinely" useful to purchase if you have symptoms of the following:
-Leaky Intestine (fatigue, skin problems, odor problems)
-Allergies
-Overtraining Symptoms (problems with infection or immunity)
-Anxiety or mood problems
-Cravings for sweets
A leaky intestine, and the associated symptoms, indicate that the body is in a state of glutamine-deficiency because it had to go to the intestine to satisfy its glutamine needs rather than from the dietary glutamine consumption. Also important to note is that you body will FIRST take glutamine from your MUSCLES before your intestine. So if you have a leaky intestine, your muscles will be equally weak in glutamine! Glutamine is very important for your body and so it will readily take it out of the muscles if there isn't enough dietary consumption, or the body isn't making enough itself, and that is to be avoided at all costs for maximum progress.
So that's really the bottom line. If you're not overtraining, and feel your intestine is not leaky and you have no allergies, then you probably do not need to purchase glutamine on the side of BCAA's and your protein powder. But to take it as insurance is a very wise precaution considering its importance in body functions. It's analogous to saying purchase flax seed oil so you don't have to eat flaxseeds, and puchase glutamine supplements so you don't have to eat the soybeans.
Since Robboe's enthusiasm for the studies that say glutamine is valuable was underwhelming, I won't go to the trouble of posting anything.
< Message edited by ShaqAtack -- 5/10/2006 5:20:41 PM >
(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/11/2006 5:11:43 AM
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Robboe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShaqAtack
I'll be the first to admit that BCAA's are far more important for building muscle mass (when considering bang for buck), and they also help to restore glutamine levels in the body.
However glutamine supplements are VERY "medicinely" useful to purchase if you have symptoms of the following:
-Leaky Intestine (fatigue, skin problems, odor problems)
-Allergies
-Overtraining Symptoms (problems with infection or immunity)
-Anxiety or mood problems
-Cravings for sweets
A leaky intestine, and the associated symptoms, indicate that the body is in a state of glutamine-deficiency because it had to go to the intestine to satisfy its glutamine needs rather than from the dietary glutamine consumption. Also important to note is that you body will FIRST take glutamine from your MUSCLES before your intestine. So if you have a leaky intestine, your muscles will be equally weak in glutamine! Glutamine is very important for your body and so it will readily take it out of the muscles if there isn't enough dietary consumption, or the body isn't making enough itself, and that is to be avoided at all costs for maximum progress.
So that's really the bottom line. If you're not overtraining, and feel your intestine is not leaky and you have no allergies, then you probably do not need to purchase glutamine on the side of BCAA's and your protein powder. But to take it as insurance is a very wise precaution considering its importance in body functions. It's analogous to saying purchase flax seed oil so you don't have to eat flaxseeds, and puchase glutamine supplements so you don't have to eat the soybeans.
Since Robboe's enthusiasm for the studies that say glutamine is valuable was underwhelming, I won't go to the trouble of posting anything.
Sorry, i'm not trying to be a pain by my lack of enthusiasm. I have just been through these sorts of discussions so many times before that its hard to keep an open mind for it. But i do try to keep an open mind for everything, so please post the studies you mention.
By the way, for four of the five bullets you laid out, i would suggest the person make amendments in other areas of their life before attempting to utilize glutamine to correct the issue(s). The quelling of sugar cravings i do recall as a nice effect though. I would not say the effect warrants the cost of purchase though.
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(in reply to ShaqAtack)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/11/2006 5:12:41 AM
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Robboe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Twin Peak
I would simply add that Rob, and more so me, represent the business side of Designer Supplements -- not the formulations side of things. So yes, while we have internal scientists, chem experts, and such (including the founder and principal owner), we are not them. We are just "fitness and health enthusiasts." I should also add that Rob is way more well read and versed in the scientific literature than I am.
But I am bigger than Rob.
Here we go again...
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(in reply to Twin Peak)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/11/2006 8:30:37 AM
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ShaqAtack
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robboe
Sorry, i'm not trying to be a pain by my lack of enthusiasm. I have just been through these sorts of discussions so many times before that its hard to keep an open mind for it. But i do try to keep an open mind for everything, so please post the studies you mention.
By the way, for four of the five bullets you laid out, i would suggest the person make amendments in other areas of their life before attempting to utilize glutamine to correct the issue(s). The quelling of sugar cravings i do recall as a nice effect though. I would not say the effect warrants the cost of purchase though.
How much do you think glutamine costs?? :-D My my.....
(in reply to Robboe)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/12/2006 5:31:31 AM
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Robboe
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From: Newcastle, UK
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It's still money that does not need to be spent.
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(in reply to ShaqAtack)
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RE: 3 PRIORITY SUPPS POLL!! - 5/12/2006 7:57:55 AM
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rucknmaul
Posts: 225
Joined: 3/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Twin Peak
More importantly, Glutamine is not only not "priority" but it is junk.
lol, L-Glutamine junk. are you kiddin.
_____________________________
i am constantly learning
i will enter a natural bb comp
i will come in a close to 200 lbs as possible
i am current around 210
(in reply to Twin Peak)
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