For Losing Fat
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For Losing Fat - 3/2/2006 9:34:45 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6300
Joined: 11/20/2005
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This is a work in progress describing how to lose fat while sparing muscle (and even gaining muscle if you play right)
A few answers...
"Should I cut first or bulk first?"
If you are asking this then the answer is that you need to be able to GAIN muscle before you can LOSE fat. You need to kick up your metabolism (the rate your body uses energy) before you get to the business of fat loss.
"Can I just do more cardio to lose fat?"
No. Excess cardio can actually cause muscle loss. Muscle is the site in the body where fat is burned. Lose muscle and you cripple your ability to burn fat. Lets clear the air on what "lose fat" means. Fat loss can be described as a 3-step process in the body. First you have to liberate fat from a fat cell, then you have to transport the fat to a muscle, then the fat has to be burned in the muscle. Liberate means that the chemical environment in the body has to be right for fat release. That means your diet must include enough of the right foods so your pancreas is producing the right chemicals and so your body and brain think you know how to take care of them. Transport means that the systems of transport are healthy and vibrant and the demand for energy is high (that is called metabolism, which we create!!) Burned means that muscle, where fat is burned in the body (that basically means muscle IS metabolism), is demanding energy on an ongoing basis. Challenging muscle through progressive resistance training will do this...especially during the hours when you are not in the gym.
"Can I lose fat if I have a slow metabolism"
Metabolism is the rate your body uses energy (known as calories.) We create our metabolism. We train our body to be better and better at burning energy. So, yes. You can take responsibility and retrain your body.
#1 diet - most important
You need to be eating enough calories so that your body is not in survival mode!
If you starve yourself, you will lose muscle and gain fat.
(That basically means you should not deplete calories below your basic metabolic needs...i.e. BMR....which could be roughly figured as weight in pounds x 10.)
If you reduce calories drastically for extended periods of time you will lose muscle and improve your ability to gain fat. That means do not try to lose fat with caloric reduction for extended periods of time! (Unless you are prepping for a contest..then, you know you will lose some muscle along the way...and you should know how you will bulk up agian after.)
We know that 500 calories under your "maintenance" per day will get you -1 pound a week...if you lose more than 2 pounds a week, some will likely be muscle and water...so you have to decide what weight you want to lose. One might take 300 from diet and deplete 200 with exercise and cardio to begin.
You can even gain 1/3 to 1/2 a pound of muscle a week while dropping fat if you play it right!
And yes, when you know how it all works you CAN lose fat in a caloric surplus, while gaining muscle...but for now and for simplicity...lets just say you will either be gaining muscle or losing fat...lets think of them as mutually exclusive clubs for now (...until you understand the complexities!)
Before you can start to LOSE fat efficiently you need to get your metabolism (the rate your body uses calories) and your digestion optimized!!!
At least 4-6 meals a day! You must strive to eat every 3- 3 1/2 hours that you are awake.
Go to this post to figure your daily calories if you don't have a clue.
Calories needed per day for various goals <------ link for you to click
At the bottom of the post is a link to a spreadsheet/calculator that you can use... otherwise read it and estimate with the formula supplied.
Use the lowest figure in the maintenance range for you (do not adjust it!)...after a week you can adjust.
Basic meal:
A lean protein (3 oz Chicken/turkey/beef/soy...)
A vegetable (1/2 cup broccoli/green beans/peppers/ 2 cups salad...)
A complex carb source (1/2 cup Rice/quinoa/amaranth/oatmeal...sweet potato, potato...)
Sufficient good fat (from the protein and/or Fish oils, omega 3 oils, flax oils, nuts..)
To start off you are looking for:
Protein-15-25%,
carbohydrates-45-75%,
fat-10-30%
...of your total calories
The ideal range of protein for starting off is .7-.9 grams per pound of body weight.
If you are a light eater and meats sit like a brick in your tummy then go for the lower part of that range.
If you enjoy meats and could eat them many times in the day, and they give you energy...go for the higher end.
Target the fat % on the scale proportionate with the protein. Then inversely proportion the carbs to the protein.
It depends on your preferences and your body chemistry. Everyone IS different in the way they digest and use food. You have to work with it to find what gives you the most energy and power, focus and good feeling.
Yes, I am speaking from experience as a trainer. I assess clients for where to start their meals, then assign a diet and then we adjust based upon what we observe. This is what you will do for yourself.
Foods should be fresh whole foods. Carbs should be from veggies and non-processed starches (rice, baked sweet potato, potato, quinoa, amaranth...). Drop processed foods and sugars from your diet.
A word about sugar. Simply put, consuming sugar can lock fat stores in and speed the loss of muscle. Processed foods can have the same effect. Even fruit consumed by itself can have that effect. Milk is a sugar...so minimize dairy intake during a fat loss cycle. No matter what, if you do have a sugar (which is not optimal when the goal is fat loss) be sure it is accompanied by a lean whole food protein (not a powder.)
Experiment with different mixes...1 week strict per "experiment"!
I.E. (these are the extremes and represent points in a whole spectrum! They give you ideas of parts of the spectrum to explore)
The moderate protein type=
Protein-20%,
carbohydrates-65%,
fat-15%
High Protein type=
Protein-25%,
carbohydrates-45%,
fat-30%
High Carb type=
Protein-15%,
carbohydrates-75%,
fat-10%
Select the foods you will eat for each meal
i.e.
Meal 1
Oatmeal
Egg whites
Onion and mushroom
Flax oil
Meal 2
Whole grain Pita Bread
Turkey
Lettuce
spinach
tomato
Meal 3
Rice
Chicken
Green Beans
Meal 4
Quinoa
Beef
Peas, Carrots and celery, onions
(Meal 5)
Pre work out protein/BCAA/EAA
During workout carbs (unless you are aiming for below 10% BF)
Post Work out protein/BCAA/EAA
Meal 6
Baked Sweet Potato
Turkey
Broccoli
Then...Use fitday.com to plan meals to get what you need not just as a meal journal...it is free! Use fitday.com as a MEAL PLANNER..not just a journal. To help you tweak your diet into different mixes!
Go over each meal separately at first and get it to match what you want. Over time design more meals that fit your target meal so you have more and more choices! The real secret is to create a new meal every few days that fits your meal plan. After 2 months you have 20-30 meals to choose from and you can mix and match!
So you start with only a days worth...you eat the same thing for a week..believe me..you will learn how much you really need to lose fat!
Lets say you are 200 pounds and are needing to start with 2800 calories to lose. If you ate that every day for a week you could tell pretty clearly what it would take to lose the fat you want!
Try to go easy on salts and avoid sugars, they sit under the skin right on the stomach!
Decrease breads and pastas replacing them with brown rice and yams, focus on getting fibrous veggies for carbs, like broccoli, green beans, greens etc. into every meal.
Lets look at what that would mean.
6 meals which includes pre and post work out nutrition
about 424 calories a meal
If you choose for the overall diet of say
25% protein
50% carbs and
25 % fat
It looks something like this but keeping an eye on protein...as we are in a deficit...not too low!
Calories - 2600
2600 calories
25% = 2600 x .25 = 650 calories from protein
50% = 2600 x .50 = 1300 calories from carbs
25% = 2600 x .25 = 650 calories from fat
Protein has 4 calories per gram
Carbs have 4 calories per gram
Fat has 9 calories per gram
650 calories protein divided by 4 = 163 grams protein
1300 calories carbs divided by 4 = 325 gram carbs
650 calories fat divided by 9 = 72 grams fat
Protein - 163 grams
Carbs - 325 grams
Fat - 72 grams
Divide that into each meal but the pre/post work out, since it will have no fat
P/PWO - calories = 440
Pre/during the-WO =
Protein 40g whey(<--30 min prior)
and/or EAA-15g and BCAA-5g <--immediately pre
Carbs 40g <---during the workout
Directly Post-WO
Protein 20g whey and/or EAA-15g and BCAA-5g
5 Meals @ about 432+- calories each
Protein - 26g
Carbs - 52g
Fat - 14g
So use fitday.com free meal journal and do 1 meal at a time to figure out what you need. Bingo!
Here is enough info to do this WITHOUT using fitday!
The most effective meals are made up of:
A Lean Protein plus
A Starchy Carbohydrate plus
A Fibrous Carbohydrate
Made up of whole unprocessed foods.
Eat until you are not hungry and then do it agin every 3 to 3 1/2 hours.
Minimize saturated fats
Avoid hydrogenated fats
Avoid sugars and processed foods
Want some samples? OK . . .
Lean Proteins include:
Chicken Breast
Turkey Breast
Egg Whites
Tuna Fish
Shellfish
Most Fresh Fish Filets
Lean Beef
Lean Buffalo
Starchy Carbohydrates include:
Potato
Sweet Potato
Brown Rice
Oatmeal
Whole Grains
Quinoa
Amaranth
Tomato
Peas
Corn
Fibrous Carbohydrates include:
Broccoli
Cauliflower
Mushrooms
Peppers
Onions
Asparagus
Broccoli,
green beans,
Snow peas
Artichoke,
bok choy,
brussels sprouts,
chili peppers,
jalapeño peppers,
leeks,
eggplant,
endive,
red cabbage,
kale,
zucchini,
lemon grass
squash
baby carrots
beets
Lettuce
Sample Supportive Meals
Chicken Breast, Baked Potato, Broccoli
A Piece of Fish, Brown Rice, a Green Salad
Egg White Omelet with Spinach and Mushrooms, Oatmeal
#2 Training
train your whole body
• Legs (squats, lunges, leg extensions, leg curls, leg press, stiff-leg deadlift)
• Shoulders (military press, side laterals, rear lat raise, upright row, shrugs)
• Chest (bench press, flyes, dips)
• Back (pull-ups, rows, deadlifts, lat pull-downs)
• Biceps (barbell curls, dumbbell curls, preacher curls, hammer curls)
• Triceps (overhead tricept extension, skull crusher, pressdown, kickbacks)
• Abs (Crunches, reverse crunches, hanging leg raises, captains chair leg raise, bicycle maneuver)
• Calf (standing calf press, seated calf press)
See the bottom for links to various workout programs.
Always warm up 3-10 minutes as needed light cardio (to get the core temp of the body up) and also light moderately-higher rep sets to warm up major bodyparts you will be working.
Optimal set / rep ranges and days between:
For muscular Endurance the rep range is 12-25+ slow pace/30-90 second rests/ 1-3 sets / 1-2 days between
For muscle size the rep range is 9-12 slow- moderate pace/30-60 second rests / 3 -4 sets per / 4-7 days between
For Strength (vs. power) the rep range is 6-8 slow pace/2-3 minute rests/ 3-4 sets per / 4-7 days between
For power the rep range is 1-5 fast/explosive pace /3-5 minute rests/ 4-8 sets per / 2-3 days between
That has been heavily tested and it works...courtesy of the National Academy of Sports Medicine.
It is essential to vary intensity in your training every cycle to keep the gains going.
There are a lot of intensity principles that you can toy with to spice up your results a bit. Some discussion threads on varying intensity...
discussion threads on varying intensity...
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_87226/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#87226
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_93729/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#94039
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_98922/tm.htm#98922
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Methods_of_progression/m_122355/tm.htm
Resources for how to do the exercises:
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html
Http://www.coopersguns.com/videos/exercise-encyclopedia/
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/exercise1.htm
http://www.bsu.edu/webapps2/strengthlab/home.htm
http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/videos.htm
#3 Cardio
Lets get something straight. When you do Cardio, the body has 2 sources of energy to choose from. Glycogen/glucose and/or FAT. When you do resistance training, the body basically has 1 sources of energy to draw from... Glycogen/glucose.
If you do your cardio (not the warm up...but the extensive) before you do resistance training and deplete the glucose before you even start lifting...what happens? The body has to get more glucose...where? It can make it from muscle!!!
If you do resistance training and then cardio...the resistance training depletes the glycogen before you start the cardio...soo what energy system will the cardio mostly use...FAT!
Now it is better if you think of cardio as a way to optimize the cardiorespiratory and other systems of the body than as a "fat burning" method. You can burn far more fat in the 23 hours you are not doing cardio then you can when doing cardio.
One more thing...you are moderately glucose deficient on waking...so there is a VERY SLIGHT advantage to training upon waking if the goal is fat loss.
The body adapts very quickly to cardio, even faster than it does to lifting. For this reason it is important to vary an aspect of your Cardio about every 2-3 weeks, or as needed to maintain the results you are looking for.
If you do the same things every day, you get less and less caloric expenditure from them. Additionally, as you lose weight, the number of calories expended from an activity declines!
The solution? Vary your training to keep your body from getting accustomed to it.
The things to vary every 2-3 weeks or so - in this order of "importance":
The the intensity of your training...slower/low intensity, moderate speed and intensity, high speed and intensity, intervals
The type of exercise you do...bike, rowing, elliptical trainer, treadmill, walking, etc
The length of time you train...from 20 minutes, to 30 minutes, to 40 minutes, to 50 to an hour.
The frequency with which you train...3 days a week, to 4 days a week, to 5 days a week, to 2x day 3 days a week
Some notes about this...change your frequency only as a last resort!!!
The more frequently you do cardio, the quicker the body adapts and the LESS you get from it!!!!!
Be sure to take 1 full week at least every 2-3 months doing NOTHING!!! In addition to other benefits, this de-conditions the body so that when you come back your body is more responsive again. When you come back, start your training at 30 minutes 4x week and moderate intensity with a new type of cardio.
Then increase the intensity (2-3 weeks), then try interval training (2-3 weeks), then switch the type of cardio and start the new type at moderate (2-3 weeks), then high (2-3 weeks), then intervals (2-3 weeks), then switch and repeat. Then add 5 minutes and go 35 at moderate (2-3 weeks), then high (2-3 weeks), then intervals (2-3 weeks).
After 3 months...REST and come back and repeat the pattern.
IF after 1-2 weeks you are not seeing any loss of body fat weight, you may need more time. If you still see nothing, you may need another day.
Read more about this here:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Progressing_your_cardio_for_ongoing_results/m_167907/tm.htm
For HIIT progressions read this:
http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit.asp
PWO for stand-alone cardio to spare muscle:
Get 5g BCAA (1/4 teaspoon per 35 pounds) directly before and after cooldown ..or .1 gram of protein from whey per pound of bodyweight 30 minutes before and the same directly after cooldown.
#4 track your progress!
On the topic of Body fat measurement...THIS is how you will insure you are on track with whatever you want to accomplish!!! The methods YOU can use to test your body fat yourself are unreliable on a one-time basis. They are better used to track changes over time on an ongoing basis.
Test every 1-3 weeks at the same time of day...and use the same scale to take your weight.
Here is a calculator that allows you to use skinfold calipers (3 or 7 point test) or tape measure
http://www.linear-software.com/online.html
Here is the best price I have found to date for good cheap accurate calipers:
skinfold Calipers <--- link to place on amazon where it is cheapest
Once your diet and training are in place, measure your body composition and go a week following your plan. Take circumference measurements of your muscles.
At the end of the week (and each week) check your body composition again - always at the same time of day with the same method and tools.
It is more important to look at the raw caliper measuremnts themselves than at the calculations!
Which ones went down, did any go up?
Here is a key for how to respond to what you find..
--If at first you are just gaining fat, then revamp your training and diet it is obviously not sufficient to create muscle gains and fat loss, also look at adjusting your caloric intake down 250.
--If you are gaining fat and muscle, stay where you are! or if it is too much fat, you can then revamp your diet or drop calories 250 or add a bit of cardio.
--If you are just gaining muscle go another week as is.
--If you gain muscle and lose fat but gain no weight (or lose weight), stay where you are or add 250 calories
--If you are gaining muscle and losing fat...while gaining weight stay where you are, you are at an optimal balance, muscle will burn more fat.
--If you are just losing fat stay where you are, then revamp your training it is obviously not sufficient to create muscle gains! Maybe add 250 calories.
--If at first you are just losing muscle, adjust your caloric intake up 500 calories.
--If you are losing fat and muscle, adjust your caloric intake up 500 calories.
--If you are neither gaining nor losing muscle or fat...you are at maintenance. then revamp your training and diet it is obviously not sufficient to create muscle gains and fat loss, maybe drop 250 calories.
Also take a weekly photo..but compare photos every three weeks (with the photo you took 3-weeks ago!)
Additionaly you should take weekly tape measurements:
Neck, Chest, Upper Arm, Forearm, Abs, Hips, Thigh, Calf
#5 the basics
Start a journal to keep all the informatin in and take notes!
Keep the resistance training under an hour
Do not over train
Don't miss a meal.
Don't go low carb on us (until you absolutely know what you are doing)
12-15 cups water minimum a day!!! (your weight x .55 in ounces)
Don't let your calories get behind your muscle gains.
Multivitamin to support growth!
8 hours sleep a night
Avoid artificial additives (flavorings, coloring, preservatives) in foods
Cut out processed foods
get pre and post work out nutrition:
PWO notes for those cutting (not in the later stages!):
You need to be sure to account for these extra calories!
Otherwise this could amount to undesired weight!
30 min. before exercise
0.2 g/lb whey
Directly before exercise
5 g BCAAs (1/4 teaspoon per 35 pounds bodyweight) or 15 g EAAs (When you use EAAs you can leave the pre-exercise whey out)
During workout
0.2g/lb carbs. You consume this spread over the entire exercise period. (for serious low fat cutting, minimize this or leave it out)
Immediately following exercise
5 g BCAAs (1/4 teaspoon per 35 pounds bodyweight) or 15 g EAAs
(When you can not use BCAAs/Essential Amino Acids, take 0.2 g/lb whey 30 min. pre workout, and 0.1 g/lb whey following. During exercise you use the same amount of carbs.)
All carb sugar is not equal. Table sugar does not replenish glucose in muscle as would a banana.
The ideal thing to sip post workout would contain a 1:1 glucose(dextrose):fructose mixture.
Most of the sugars in Juice are sucrose...
With Orange juice the total sugars of 20 g per cup of 25 G total carbs S:F:G =10:5:5
With Orange fruit the total sugars of 17 g per 25 grams of total carbs S:F:G = 8.5:4.5:4
With Banana the total sugars of 13g to 25 g total carbs S:F:G = 2:5.5:5.5
For comparison...The orange juice would deposit 10 grams (the sucrose) either to immediate energy use or to easy fat storage, the orange 8.5 grams and the banana 2 grams. The F and G go to replenish muscle and liver glycogen stores. Which the banana does more efficiently.
See how not all fruits are created equal?
Can you use the juice? Yes. Is it ideal? Depends on your body's use of energy. But if you do, dilute it 50% so sipping gives you more water...that way it will pass through digestion faster!
Let me give you a link where you can look things up :
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
Remember. ideally you want something with a 1:1 ratio of Glucose (dextrose):fructose.
Another Example of 1 large Apple:
Apple is 1:2.4 / Glucose (dextrose):fructose/
Which is not ideal but if it is what you have, that is fine...fructose reloads the liver, glucose reloads muscle...excess fructose not stored or burned goes to fat.
Carbohydrate, 29.28 g
Sucrose g 4.39 (This is low which is nice) 
Glucose (dextrose) g 5.15
Fructose g 12.51
Diet may be your biggest challenge. You have to get the caloric level sufficient so that you are losing fat but maintaining/gaining muscle. You should expect to lose .5 to 2 pounds a week FAT and maybe gain .3-.5 pounds a week muscle.
Any questions…after you do your homework…post your goal, caloric needs, diet, and training in a new thread and we can comment to get you in the groove!
Other topics of interest..
Meal Replacement Powders of choice
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/MRP/m_109098/tm.htm
3 day per week training
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=04-073-training
HST (Hypertrophy Specific Training)
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html
S.A.I.S. (Specific Adaption to Imposed Stress) Training
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jeff1.htm
Pre and Post work out Anabolic nutrition
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/PWO_Shakes/m_97786/tm.htm
or this one
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/post_workout-whole_foods_or_supplements/m_111290/tm.htm
8-week HIIT Cardio Progression
http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit.asp
< Message edited by danmirage -- 5/27/2007 11:14:56 AM >
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
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RE: For Losing Fat - 3/21/2006 7:55:49 AM
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iNatalia
Posts: 12
Joined: 3/20/2006
Status: offline
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Danmirage, thatnks. Very helpful info!
_____________________________
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 5/12/2006 7:29:23 PM
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fatornotfat
Posts: 5
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline
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danmirage, you kick ass! I've looked MONTHS for an article like this!
(in reply to iNatalia)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/13/2006 10:14:05 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6300
Joined: 11/20/2005
Status: offline
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These are some notes from answering questions people asked me...I will amend the main post with more clear info later :)
quote:
I have no idea what comprises of essential amino acids, etc....what are you referring to when you say that we should be taking these before and after the workout?
They are found in pure whey...or you can use just the BCAAs such as this...
BCAA Powder
quote:
When you say we should be having carbs during our workout...how does one do this?
Not while cutting.
quote:
what's the difference between STRENGTH/MUSCLE SIZE?
That confuses many people.
Strength is the ability to move maximal weights and is not necessarily tied to muscle size.
Muscle size is increasing the size and density of the muscle and not necessarily tied to strength.
So 5x5 is more a power and strength style workout.
If your diet is appropriate, then you will get some muscle increases from power and strength type training...however gains in size are likely to be more significant if you follow muscle hypertrophy specific training..that is for muscle size.
quote:
Which is more worth focusing on for my personal goal?
I will tell you some things you won't hear many places...since you want to lose fat...
First your lifting (not counting warm up and post w/o stretching) should not exceed 45 minutes if you can avoid it...and total cardio + lifting time should not exceed a combined time of 75 minutes!
Second, some cardio should happen right after lifting with (NO food, protein, or carb intake until after) to allow for the body to take advantage of the glycogen depletion.
Third, your workout needs to challenge muscle in a way you are not accustomed to with a shift in training every week!
Fourth, your training needs to deplete glycogen! Try rotating training in supersets, circuits, or add a drop set. Try 15-20 reps to failure...
Fifth, pure whey or BCAA before lifting and after the cardio..if you do stand alone cardio then take it before and after.
Nearly Last...the food you take in..I know you read the fat loss thread...so you read what foods you must not to eat to insure continuous fat loss, how often you must eat to keep the muscle fed and the metabolism burning optimally, what 3 foods you must eat every meal...
One more thing it does not mention...see, you may have overdone cardio too...where do you go from 60 minutes to add intensity...I will tell you...you stop doing it for a week.
The first week just do a new style of lifting. The second week start with 6 minutes of post workout cardio and add 2 minutes every workout day...when you switch the workout again start at 10 minutes and add 2 minutes every workout day...and also add a 12 minute off day cardio, preferably immediately on waking before you eat.
Post workout cardio is at a moderate intensity! Not high.
Your cut should last no more than 6 weeks if you don't want to lose muscle severely.
Final note...as you progress, start to shift the fat content lower into the 10-15% area and the carbs down to 40%- area and protein up into the 35-45+%
I will warn you..this will INCREASE your metabolism and likely lower your calories...it may also slow muscle gains a little as the storage hormone will not be dominant..the fat burning hormone will be dominant. SO you don't want to maintain this for long periods of time (over 4 weeks) otherwise...you risk the body doing some revenge actions!
This info assumes you have optimized metabolism (adding muscle, improving digestion, increasing resting metabolic rate through adaptations), mastered eating appropriately, and understand how to create a reasonable training routine, varying it weekly.
Now go tear it up!!!
< Message edited by danmirage -- 6/20/2006 10:16:31 AM >
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/20/2006 12:37:22 PM
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TIHulk
Posts: 638
Status: offline
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quote:
I have no idea what comprises of essential amino acids, etc....what are you referring to when you say that we should be taking these before and after the workout?
quote:
They are found in pure whey...or you can use just the BCAAs such as this...
BCAA Powder
quote:
You said in the initial post to take whey protein (.2g/lb) 30min before a workout but if you take BCAA's (5gs) or EAA's (15gs) immediately before working out then you don't need the .2g/lb whey 30 min before... Correct???...
As I mentioned...protein 30 minutes or a meal 60 minutes prior will do the same when cutting..then BCAA right before.
quote:
And here you say (EAA's) "essential amino acids" "are found in pure whey protein"??? I'm a bit confused!... Do I have to take whey 30 mins before or do I have to take it immediately before (since it contains EAA’s as you just mentioned!)???...
whey 30 minutes before...it has to be processed.
quote:
And if I drink whey do I have to drink .2g/lb or do I have to take 15gs and consider it as being EAA's (since it contains EAA’s as you just mentioned!)???
whey = .2g/lb
quote:
What’s the exact difference between Whey protein shakes, EAA’s & BCAA’s???
BCAAs are only the 3 amino acids, essential amino acids are all the essential amino acids, whey is a dairy processing byproduct and therefor a food derivative with all the amino acids (BCAA, essential and non essential)
quote:
Why when drinking whey is it said to take .2g/lb (it accounts weight of individual), when taking BCAA’s it says to take 5gs (not accounting weight of individual???) & when taking EAA’s it says to take 15gs (once again not accounting weight of individual???)…
OK thats funny. These recommendations are general not specific to your personal chemistry and they are based on amounts used in clinical trials that gave "Best Results" across the board.
quote:
Which is best to take???
You decide. Best is a personal choice. Re-read the entire conversation in the other thread and this and then decide...all choices are right. The recommendations you have received are for "Best Results" across the board.
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Should I account Pre and Post workout meals as one of my six meals or is this not accounted???
Eat every 3 hours that you are awake. Have the BCAA/Whey post workout. Then eat a supportive meal 30-60 minutes after your workout ends. There is no accounting...you ARE taking in those nutrients to spare and support muscle.
< Message edited by danmirage -- 6/20/2006 1:19:19 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/20/2006 1:27:02 PM
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TIHulk
Posts: 638
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quote:
BCAAs are only the 3 amino acids, essential amino acids are all the essential amino acids, whey is a dairy processing byproduct and therefor a food derivative with all the amino acids (BCAA, essential and non essential)
So if BCAA's are only 3 amino acids (branch chain) and EEA's are all Essential Amino Acids and Whey is BCAA's, EAA's and Non-EAA's combined why do you have to take more whey then the other 2??? Isn't Whey better???
Thanks! :)
(in reply to TIHulk)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/20/2006 1:58:36 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6300
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
Isn't Whey better???
No. They all serve different roles.
Remember, These recommendations are based on amounts found in clinical trials that gave "Best Results" across the board.
Why do we say these things, because science says that is what gives the results we are looking for.
Whey is nearly a food. It has to be processed/digested. As a food, it has fats, sugars, and varying levels of amino acids in it. These release into the blood in varying amounts at varying speeds.
BCAAs are pure amino acids, they are the ones the body wants after you train, and they are the specific amino acids the body wants when it starts to break down muscle. These pure amino acids move right into the blood and are available for about 45 minutes...sparing muscle. Whey does not quite do the same or contain the same amounts. Whey would be fine if it was all you had, as it DOES supply the BCAAs, overlooking the issues of amount and availability.
The recommendations you read originally were for optimal anabolic effect. You have to determine for yourself how much of that you want to do. Experiment.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to TIHulk)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/20/2006 2:24:17 PM
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TIHulk
Posts: 638
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
quote:
Isn't Whey better???
No. They all serve different roles.
Remember, These recommendations are based on amounts found in clinical trials that gave "Best Results" across the board.
Why do we say these things, because science says that is what gives the results we are looking for.
Whey is nearly a food. It has to be processed/digested. As a food, it has fats, sugars, and varying levels of amino acids in it. These release into the blood in varying amounts at varying speeds.
BCAAs are pure amino acids, they are the ones the body wants after you train, and they are the specific amino acids the body wants when it starts to break down muscle. These pure amino acids move right into the blood and are available for about 45 minutes...sparing muscle. Whey does not quite do the same or contain the same amounts. Whey would be fine if it was all you had, as it DOES supply the BCAAs, overlooking the issues of amount and availability.
The recommendations you read originally were for optimal anabolic effect. You have to determine for yourself how much of that you want to do. Experiment.
What do you take??? How many grams Pre & Post workout???
Thanks!
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/20/2006 4:32:26 PM
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TIHulk
Posts: 638
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
I eat a supportive meal every 3 hours. My meals supply sufficient protien, occasionally I have an MRP.
I take 5 grams of BCAA pre and post training.
Which BCAA's do you take?
What's the reason you chose BCAA's over EAA's, Whey or lean protein whole food???
By taking 5 grams of BCAA's Pre and Post training which totals 10 grams do you include this 10 grams as 10 grams of protein for your daily protein intake or more? (I.e. if you intake 240 grams from whole food protein do you add 10 grams from the BCAA's for a total of 250 grams a day or do you add more from the BCAA's???)
Thanks! :)
< Message edited by TIHulk -- 6/20/2006 4:41:44 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/20/2006 7:18:45 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6300
Joined: 11/20/2005
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BCAA Powder <----link to the one I take
quote:
What's the reason you chose BCAA's over EAA's
BCAAs are the ones the body wants after you train, and they are the specific amino acids the body wants when it starts to break down muscle.
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Whey or lean protein whole food
I eat meals because they are more complete nutritionally..which is how the body functions best for growth adn for burning.
Powder is pre-diggested and so has very little effect on the metabolism. Food requires work to process and has a dramatic effect on the metabolism.
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do you include this 10 grams as 10 grams of protein for your daily protein intake or more? (I.e. if you intake 240 grams from whole food protein do you add 10 grams from the BCAA's for a total of 250 grams a day or do you add more from the BCAA's???)
Again, you are trying to count. If I eat that 10 grams of protein...it is 10 grams of protein (though it is incomplete.) I track my diet very carefully at times and everything that goes into my mouth goes into the program.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to TIHulk)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/20/2006 8:00:59 PM
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TIHulk
Posts: 638
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
BCAA Powder <----link to the one I take
Why not take capsules/tablets instead of powder??? (Absorbtion?) If I take the capsules/tablets about 15 mins before will it have the same effects as the powder? Or do you recommend powder?
What do you take the BCAA's with? (Water, milk?... How many ounces?)
You take 5 grams before and 5 grams after... And 30-60mins later you eat a meal with how much protein???
What do you eat or drink during your workout and cardio???
Why don't you take 5 grams during the workout?
Why do you only take 5 grams of BCAA's before & after and not .17g/lb pre/during/post as many recommend??? (Do you compensate for this by eating a high protein breakfast 30-60mins later?)
Isn't 5 grams of protein pre/post=10g almost negligible? Why not take more? (~40g like Whey?)
What do you think of this BCAA Powder which includes L-Glutamine???: http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_146716/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#146716
Do you think this is better than the one you take??? Why or why not??? (Are the ingredients [artificial etc.] counterproductive to fat loss?) If you don't recommend this BCAA do you recommend I find one with L-Glutamine or does L-Glutamine not play a big role???
Would there be any similarity if I ate 5g egg whites pre(30-60min prior)/post workout=10g or does this 10g only apply to BCAA's??? (How many grams from egg whites would equal similarity?)
Thanks! :)
< Message edited by TIHulk -- 6/20/2006 8:15:09 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/20/2006 10:20:05 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6300
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
Why not take capsules/tablets instead of powder???
Cost and absorption. Also I dislike capsules as many have msg in them. You should take what you like and is convenient for you. I use a spoon and put it in my mouth..I rinse down with water.
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You take 5 grams before and 5 grams after... And 30-60mins later you eat a meal with how much protein???
A complete Supportive meal as described above. Nutrient content of my meals depends on the particular phase of my training.
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What do you eat or drink during your workout and cardio???
Water.
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Why don't you take 5 grams during the workout?
I don't overtrain. My training is brief and intense.
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Why do you only take 5 grams of BCAA's before & after
The research. My experience.
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Isn't 5 grams of protein pre/post=10g almost negligible? Why not take more? (~40g like Whey?)
The idea of more being better is a silly way to look at it. The body takes only what it needs. That is 1250 Milligrams of 2 amino acids and 2500 milligrams of another...you say negligible. Based upon what findings? Again, look to the research.
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What do you think of this BCAA Powder
I will neither use nor recommend artificially colored, artificially flavored, additive and sucralose laden supplements.
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(Are the ingredients [artificial etc.] counterproductive to fat loss?)
There is research to suggest that they are not beneficial.
L-glutamine is abundant in the body, however it has shown some value in sparing muscle for those who overtrain or are in a caloric deficit.
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Would there be any similarity if I ate 5g egg whites pre(30-60min prior)/post workout=10g or does this 10g only apply to BCAA's??? (How many grams from egg whites would equal similarity?)
I recommend you learn to do the math on this type of question so you can always satisfy your curiosity.
Cheers!
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to TIHulk)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/20/2006 11:13:54 PM
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TIHulk
Posts: 638
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quote:
I don't overtrain. My training is brief and intense.
What does brief stand for??? 45 min???
I'm planning on following this... What would you recommend I take in grams of BCAA's (I'm 250lbs and my LBM is 190-200lbs)? (5gs pre and post as you take it or other???)
Do you recommend I only take it before and after or also during considering I will workout for 45 min and do cardio for 30 min??? (75min as you recommended) [Only water for cardio]
Do you recommend I take it with whey (.2/lb before and then .1/lb after as you recommended) or will the effects be similar just with the BCAA as you take them??? And then a nutritional meal 30-60 min later!
Are tomatoes starchy carbs? Do you have the carb amount per tomato in grams??? (I thought they were fibrous carbs either way it contains ~97% water anyhow!) Should I cut them out of my last meal as they are starchy carbs and I'm trying to stay away from starchy carbs for the last meals?
Thanks! :)
< Message edited by TIHulk -- 6/20/2006 11:21:22 PM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: For Losing Fat - 6/21/2006 12:36:18 AM
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danmirage
Posts: 6300
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
What does brief stand for??? 45 min???
Sometimes even less.
quote:
I'm planning on following this... What would you recommend I take in grams of BCAA's (I'm 250lbs and my LBM is 190-200lbs)? (5gs pre and post as you take it or other???)
Do you recommend I only take it before and after or also during considering I will workout for 45 min and do cardio for 30 min??? (75min as you recommended) [Only water for cardio]
The key is proper nourishment on an ongoing basis and the BCAA is simply insurance against tapping muscle, especially if you are in a deficit. So 5 G before and after training is fine...
The added benefit after is it apears to sppeed a return to an anabolic state.
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Do you recommend I take it with whey (.2/lb before and then .1/lb after as you recommended) or will the effects be similar just with the BCAA as you take them??? And then a nutritional meal 30-60 min later!
The .1g/lb after is in lieu of BCAAs.
If you are getting a meal 45-90 minutes pre workout then you should be fine without the .2g...unless you are in a severe deficit and very low carb.
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Are tomatoes starchy carbs?
In effect, we treat them as if they are.
Here is your source for the complete nutrient content of most any food:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to TIHulk)
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