Twistedlinks critique under the theory of the keto diet

I'm a busy man, so coming soon, but im getting a bit worried with everyone ready to try it out.
 
Il hopefully have this done maybe by midnight UK time, if not, tommorow morning.

you plan on providing an analytical study on this type of program-not sure what the intent of the post is

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My plan is to find at least 3-5 sources of how this keto diet works, and put that under the test of the science i know (which is a lot)
 
It has both good and bad points, im not biased, and i will put up both good and bad points.

Pros in blue, cons in black, both in green
 
 
 
stress test:source 1
 
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto.htm
 
1.

The main benefit being that it increases the body's ability to utilize fats for fuel, which gets very lazy on a high carbohydrate diet. When on high carbohydrate diets the body can usually expect an energy source to keep entering the body. But in the state of ketosis the body has to become efficient at mobilizing fats as energy.

 
Really? High carbohydrates make your body stop burning fats?
So, theyre saying, on a standard carbohydrate/protein/fat split of 50/25/25 all them 50% carbs (1500 calories worth) is going to be burnt, while fats wont?
 
Fact:when the body has heightened its blood sugar levels to normal standards under homeostasis, it will convert all left over carbohydrates to glycogen, once all areas are full, it will convert this carbohydrate to fat, and isnt that good according to this diet? that your macronutrients are more-so fats?
 
Also note
 

When on high carbohydrate diets the body can usually expect an energy source to keep entering the body.

 
So when eating 75% Fats in 5-7 meals throughout the day isnt making a constant energy source entering the body?
surely if the body was hormonally responding to 5-7 fat filled meals, it would actually inhibit fat burning around the muscles unless absolutely needed, and still rely on dietary macronutrients?
 
Fact:Most tissues prefer fats as energy than glucose, this includes muscles as a whole, and cardiac muscle (hence why cardio is good at burning fat)
The only things that prefer glucose is the nervous system workings, and red blood cells.
So when your body stores the carbohydrates-it will do this anyway, of course, if the body lacks glucose, the body does become more efficient at burning fats-that is true.
 
 

Another nifty thing about being in a state of ketosis is that if the body has no further use for ketones they can simply be excreted through urine as a waste product. This means that at times your body will be peeing out body fat! This is a novel theme because you body is very efficient at storing energy substrates for later use.

 
Peeing out bodyfat? where is the science behind actual whole fatty acid chains being broken down i the body and then entering the kidneys via water and urea to then be removed as a waste product?
Doesnt sound good to me
 
Little bit of knowledge-when a glucose ring is "unwound" into a chain structure-it is a ketone, just a little knowledge there.
 

Ketosis has a protein sparing effect, assuming that you are consuming adequate quantities of protein and calories in the first place. Once in ketosis the body actually prefers ketones to glucose. Since the body has copious quanities of fat this means that there is no need to oxidize protein to generate glucose through gluconeogenesis.

 
Fact:Gluconeogenesis will ONLY occur if glucagon is present in moderate amounts, glucagon is the hormone that will breakdown glycogen to glucose,
 
Gluconeogenesis will ONLY occur if GLYCOGEN reserves are almost COMPLETELY used up, in other words, the liver will convert amino acids into glucose for energy.
 
This will only occur under low levels of glycogen (glucose storage unit)
 
what can we deduce from this?
 
that gluconeogenesis ISNT a problem to ANYONE as long as they have carbohydrates with there meals, proteins will be used for building muscle vastly better with carbohydrates as a part of every meal (which may i say is what danmirage has been saying all along)
 
The funny thing, is gluconeogenesis occurs with LOW glucose levels right?
well your carbs are 5%
 
so actually, ketogenic dieters are actually converting most of there protein INTO glucose, which is a complete waste.
 

Another benefit has to do with the low levels of insulin in the body, which causes greater lipolysis and free glycerol release compared to a normal diet when insulin is around 80-120. Insulin has a lipolysis blocking effect, which can inhibit the use of fatty acids as energy. Also when insulin is brought to low levels many beneficial hormones are released in the body such as growth hormone and other powerful growth factors.

 
This is just obviously dangerous, lowering insulin? come on guys, thats the problem diabetics have, not enough insulin, so when it comes to "carb up" time for all keto dieters, youre going to maybe have some side effects of diabetes folk, very high sugar blood levels, because your body is now become less efficient at producing insulin
 
 
this is without a doubt one of the most worrying aspects of this diet.
 

Another small but very important benefit about the ketogenic diet is that when in the state of ketosis, ketones seem to blunt hunger in many people. I mean honestly, what is not better than being on a low calorie diet and not being hungry all the time like you usually are such as on a high carbohydrate diet. Since on the ketogenic diet you have to consume a lot of fat, which hold 9 calories, you are not getting much food volume. This makes not being hungry a very good thing when on the diet. When you add such thermogenics like the ECA stack and prescription appetite suppressants you won't even think about your next meal. It's kind of funny that when the Atkins' diet first came out one of the early criticisms was that the diet blunted hunger too much! What, is it mandatory to be hungry on a reduced calorie diet?

 
Eating loads of sweets will still keep you hungry, it is no benefit, other than eating even more fats, the body has hormonal responses to what youre putting in your body, this hunger is possibly from lack of glucose and glycogen
 
 
 
Overall, what can you determine from this diet?
 
1.It will work
2.They only half ass the science behind it
3.It will **** your body up-big time.
 
I wont deny it doesnt work-it does, and the blue and green part posted is the reason it works, including the fact that the high lipid amounts increase testosterone levels through the roof, helping use whatever protein left into building muscle better than non ketogenic dieters.
 
This diet puts severe stress on the liver, AND the nervous system which prefers glucose, and it is your nervous system that gives you your strength and your immune system in many respects.
 
 

awesome work keep it up u know your stuff anyways i have one more question can u get kidney disease from a keto diet or any other disease

I find your thoughts difficult to follow

this hunger is possibly from lack of glucose and glycogen -not sure what this is suppose to mean.  Blunting hunger means YOU DONT BECOME HUNGRY on a ketogenic diet.  That is a proven fact for ANYONE that has even tried the diet.

Have you ever tried the diet?

Other than a cut and paste job from bb.com and some opinions do you have any research studies and data to support your conclusions

we spent a good amount of time debating it in the past but i am not about to start it over

There are several good resources The Body Opus and The ketogenic dieters handbook for people who are interested in understanding the benefits and mechanisms behind a keo diet

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o i forgot one more thhing is carb cycling good and is it better than a keto diet for fat loss and if it is this is my plan
 
the total plan
day 1: 250g carbs/1g of protein per pound of bodyweight
day 2 and 3: 125g carbs/1.6g of protein per pound of bodyweight.
day 4 and 5: 75g carbs/1.8g of protein per pound bodyweight
day 8: 400g carbs/1g of protein per pound of bodyweight
 
i will also be doing HIIT and lifting 4 days a week
any help would be appreciated and thx

I think we should debate it again. For one, the old post, I found no helpful information in it, honestly. I mean there was information.. that I already know. And after it trailed off, the topic got off to people's sensitivity to carb depending on body type.
 
I want to do this diet, but it is very confusing. Like, it takes two weeks time without a carb up to become ketogenic, correct? So, if you lost bodyfat out the ass until you were satisfied, and you were ready to get off the diet, would you gain the fat back going into a moderate carb, high protein, low fat macro?
 
I have tried the diet.. for 1 1/2 weeks time. And he is right, hunger is not an issue at any time. Nj, what are your results from this diet? Have you bulked with it and lost BF? Or just cut with it?

The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible.

I dont mind a healthy debate -but usually it turns into the ketogenic diets are not healthy, bad and you screw you up big time -I took that from Twists "study"
That is frustrating to me when I can post study after study about the benefits of a low carb diet.  Yes if one was to "go off the diet" you would gradually reintrodce larger amount of carbs into the diet. However that begs the question-  IF it is working and producing the results you desire-Why stop using it?

Ketogenic diets I will agree serve better as a "cut" however I am not a big fan of "buking" anyway as a concept and see it as just an excuse for people to eat excessive calories, gain scale weight, and delude themselves that they are gaining mass
 
Lyle Mcdonald did alot of the research on this so you can google him

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I read about Lyle on BB.com, and I googled his actualy page thing up and learned about him.
 

.  Yes if one was to "go off the diet" you would gradually reintrodce larger amount of carbs into the diet. However that begs the question-  IF it is working and producing the results you desire-Why stop using it?

Ketogenic diets I will agree serve better as a "cut" however I am not a big fan of "buking" anyway as a concept and see it as just an excuse for people to eat excessive calories, gain scale weight, and delude themselves that they are gaining mass

 
Okay, thank you for answering that question. If no one comes in with heated arguments about ketosis, this should be a fine discussion. Now, you can bulk with this diet and make great gains? Protein is lowish, so I wonder if that is even a big factor? I know high fat = more test in the system, so it makes sense that it would add more muscle mass, but how would you set up calories to not "have an excuse to eat excessively"?
 
Example, my maintanence is about 2,400 calories. I need 1,900 to cut, and 2,900 to bulk. Or is this a diet where no fat is ever actually added even while "bulking"?

The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible.

ORIGINAL: njmuscle66

I find your thoughts difficult to follow

this hunger is possibly from lack of glucose and glycogen -not sure what this is suppose to mean.  Blunting hunger means YOU DONT BECOME HUNGRY on a ketogenic diet.  That is a proven fact for ANYONE that has even tried the diet.

Have you ever tried the diet?

Other than a cut and paste job from bb.com and some opinions do you have any research studies and data to support your conclusions

we spent a good amount of time debating it in the past but i am not about to start it over

There are several good resources The Body Opus and The ketogenic dieters handbook for people who are interested in understanding the benefits and mechanisms behind a keo diet

 
Yeah I agree, this sounds good but actual research studies are a must when trying to argue and critique something like this, they're not hard to find and would really add a huge amount of credibility.
 
So njmuscle what's is your take on the keto diet? Do you agree with Arnold's book saying that the best way is to remain just on the brink of ketosis by measuring for ketones in your urine and so on?
 
 

ORIGINAL: odw777

ORIGINAL: njmuscle66

I find your thoughts difficult to follow

this hunger is possibly from lack of glucose and glycogen -not sure what this is suppose to mean.  Blunting hunger means YOU DONT BECOME HUNGRY on a ketogenic diet.  That is a proven fact for ANYONE that has even tried the diet.

Have you ever tried the diet?

Other than a cut and paste job from bb.com and some opinions do you have any research studies and data to support your conclusions

we spent a good amount of time debating it in the past but i am not about to start it over

There are several good resources The Body Opus and The ketogenic dieters handbook for people who are interested in understanding the benefits and mechanisms behind a keo diet

Yeah I agree, this sounds good but actual research studies are a must when trying to argue and critique something like this, they're not hard to find and would really add a huge amount of credibility.

So njmuscle what's is your take on the keto diet? Do you agree with Arnold's book saying that the best way is to remain just on the brink of ketosis by measuring for ketones in your urine and so on?

 
My take is this diet works VERY well for my diet and lifestyle.  I pretty much follow it for  the VAST majority of the time over the last 4-5 years  I use a Target Ketogenic Diet (carbs around my workouts) rather than a cyclical (weekend carb up).
 
I would rather have steak and salad or eggd an turkey bacon than a pasta dish, breads, etc  I consider myself very carb sensitive so I follow the diet, snack on almonds and the like and enjoy it immensely

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what about my question

I am not really following your question can you clairfy what you mean

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1. ok i was asking if carb cycling would be better than a keto diet for fat loss and if it is this a good routine to follow.
 
day 1: 250g carbs / 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight
day 2 and 3: 125g carbs / 1.6g of protein per pound of bodyweight.
day 4 and 5: 75g carbs / 1.8g of protein per pound bodyweight
day 8: 400g carbs /1g of protein per pound of bodyweight
 
i will also be doing HIIT two days a week and lifting 3 days a week
 
2. my second question is will a keto diet give u kidney disease or diabetes or any other disease

I dont like "internet studies" because more often than not, theyre flawed, i can post up all the information i posted via scan from books if you want me to Njmuscle, i dont mind.
 
Facts are, this BB.com article doesnt know its science, it got some things plainly wrong, they threw in a nice fancy word such as gluconeogenesis so it sounded like the "real deal"
 
when really, it wasnt, the ketogenic diet will in fact reinforce gluconeogenesis and thus waste a lot of protein, the only reason muscle building still continues through the diet is elevated LDL's and HDL's which dapunisher proved on his diet, which will be converted into testosterone which helps build muscle by significant amounts.
 
Im a student of chemistry and biology, soon to take a degree, thats why i dont have to refer to "internet studies" i can make theoretical (mostly accurate too) deductions from this diet.
 
It will work.
 
But come on, even if you like the keto diet, and never saw any side effects when doing it, it has an array of weird biological assumptions that i dont even think are possible
 
Fatty acids in urine, in high amounts from bodyfat?
Lowered insulin like diabetics?
Nervous tissues not getting preffered or important macronutrient?
 
You dont screw around with your liver, kidneys, and nervous system, thats asking for trouble, and this keto diet does exactly that.
 
This is in no way a beginning statement for a slagging off match but Njmuscle, isnt it you who seem to deny pretty near every side effect listed on steroids?
Im not saying youre wrong, im just saying since 2 years going to the gym now, i know a lot more juicers...and they ALL show the "stereotypical" symptoms, and you say its never been proven people do...
Now you're saying the keto diet is perfectly healthy
 
I dont mind a debate, just remember if you post up internet articles, i will go through them with a fine toothcomb, and il also get my professors of chem and bio to look through them to check how valid it actually is.
 
Through my education ive taken a lot of information from the internet, and every time i did i was marked down for "wrong information"
 
Youd be surprised how easy it is to get away with twisting science around, biology is very complex, and a simple google on one unknown word wont make you understand, in actual fact itl probably make you believe the BS more.
 
 
Njmuscle-I have no problem with the theory of this diet, i have posted up a strange diet plan myself here only 3 weeks ago, where carbs are low, but 5% just isn't healthy.
 
I agree the ketogenic diet is great for epileptics
I agree you get the gains
 
But this diet affects your hormonal balances and overall functioning and metabolism of the body by an awful lot, there are two VERY subtle things you need to understand in biology before performing them
 
Is something happening because youre putting it under the circumstances in which to do it, or is it happening because it requires it to do it.
 
 
pedro carb cycling like that wouldnt be too effective, youre lowering and heightening it too fast, the body wont be affected much, youll probably just get fat from that cycling, but try it out.
 
 
 
Remember this diet gets funded under sorts of commisions, they have teams of scientists to find any strange backward confusing science they can to support it so its easy to confuse which side of the coin it should be happening on-and the common man will accept the first article they read.
 
Its nothing new, its happened time and time again, and people still dont recognise it when it happens again.
 
 
 

The problem with internet articles are thus

I could post this
http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/about/news/release/2000/7-diet.htm

http://www.agale.com.au/DietaryKetosis.htm (POOR science, but still, i could actually get away with this article in some forums/some members lol)

http://www.healthscience.org/content/view/144/116/

I like this one because ive been advising all keto converters to do little cycles, and this says-damaging longterm, so my simple and own thought out deductions were correct, small cycles will give you beneficial effects and stop most side effects before they get too severe.

http://www.naturopathic.org/viewbulletin.php?id=8

People with diabetes do not produce enough insulin from their pancreas, or have a condition called insulin resistance, in which the tissues will no longer respond to the presence of insulin bearing glucose to be delivered into storage.

This site supports it then posts that? lol...idiots.

If your body doesnt form inslulin for months from longterm keto diet, they will be affected less by insulin, the longer you perform this diet, the more chance you have of getting diabetic.

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/cancer-nutritional-wisdom-dangers-of-the-atkins-diet.html

Not entirely about keto, but atkins is somewhat similar, and i also LOVE this line from it

Lying? Of course they’re lying. There are millions of dollars at stake here. Can’t let unsightly truths get out—politicians have known this for years, but fortunately the truth does eek its way out every once and a while. For example, get a load of this study in European Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Dr. Fuhrman emailed it to me the other day. Apparently prolonged consumption of a low-carbohydrate–high-protein diet is associated with an increase in total mortality. Read on:

 
 
If im quite honest, its pretty obvious keto diets can and are dangerous, even more so without regular doc check-ups, and even more so with carbs as low as 5%

It even says in that first article

The diet produces a state in the body that simulates starvation. It is based on the belief that starvation and dehydration can reduce the frequency of seizures.

This NJ, is what i was referring to as towards the body wanting glucose and carbs.

Your body under "starvation stress" will guess what?
 
Burn bodyfat

and try to preserve itself for as long as possible(as in tissues), which is why in that BB.com article says

Also when insulin is brought to low levels many beneficial hormones are released in the body such as growth hormone and other powerful growth factors.

EDIT:Damn this posted before i wanted it to lol

These hormones are reactions in the body to try and keep its muscle, and tissues, not because it is trying to add mass, adding mass is simply formed through 2 factors

1.genetics
2.stimuli

stimuli is not food, you can eat a bodybuilding diet, you will just get fat, hormone stimulation can be made from diet, it will however still, not make it so the body sets a wholly metabolic path for pure muscle gain and little fat loss, otherwise the effects would be great

stimuli is working out, and Growth hormone is released when you workout, because its stimulating growth

This diet releasing GH is stimulating preservation, of course added to vast testosterone, workout stimuli, and protein in the diet, this yields high success rates, hence again, why i say this diet works.

children with epilepsey who go under this diet from my knowledge dont become fat or muscly.

They just get severe heart problems aged 5 in the extreme of cases.



Like i said, them articles above are enough to prove what im saying

and im sure you people will have many articles to post up that prove what youre saying

this is why i dont like internet articles, both sides of the coin are shown, and both are somehow sprouting bull****

everyone out there is out for competition and funds

Im not after your money, and i have a fair amount of knowledge
DBB.com members have helped me reach new weight and strength boundaries i never knew

Thats why im posting this, because i dont want a load of them in 10-24 months time to suddenly post up how to get bodybuilder gains on a diabetics diet.
Or get very worn out hearts

If anything this thread will just make me even more unpopular than i already am, and there is no reason for me to do that unless i really think health issues can occur in this diet


Im not saying everyones gonna die lol, im just saying, do this diet with caution, and realise the health implications involved.

Have a balanced nutrition, and not too exterme on end of the spectrum is my conclusion!

Have a balanced nutrition, and not too exterme on end of the spectrum is my conclusion!

My signature did once have "article completion" of science of homeostasis

I was going to post it up and put hints towards how balanced diets are brilliant to keep the body healthy and under great biological balance, but this diets getting very popular, so i decided to take direct action

TBH im the only one who will

Ive posted my mind on here for 2 years and been "discredited" or simply made fun of or patronised, so i really dont care for it to happen one more time

I just hope that when all keto dieters try this and some reap the unwanted rewards that they remember i at least tried to warn them.

Also please note a general lack of the erm...not to name names...More scientifically knowledgable people on the forum not really taking part in any of the keto debates.

I dont know if thats because they really cant be bothered for another debate to just end up with an agreeing to disagree , or slagging match, or because theyre busy...but meh....


I never used to understand a lot of danmirages diet help, i just followed it, and more often than not it worked, now ive equipped myself with more knowledge and look back on his posts, i understand exactly what he was trying to do, the guy is seriously smart, i wish he were here to post on this thread, i hold dan in very high respect and think of his opinion almost as blind faithed fact. (which of course usually is, meaning its not his opinion )

It's nutrition, not diet twisted! I try to avoid using the word "diet" now, although I sometimes seem to have to use it. 

Extra bit of knowledge for you guys, towards gluconeogenesis, it says when the body is under a form of ketosis meaning the body prefers ketones, that is true, this however doesnt affect gluconeogenesis at all if you look at it carefully

Gluconeogenesis occurs when glucose is severely low, why? well because it needs it obviously

FACT:The brain burns two teaspoonfuls of sugar (glucose) every hour

in 24 hours that is easily over 100 grams, are you getting this?

No, do you need this?

yes, how do you obtain these non diet sugars?

gluconeogenesis, thats how, ketogenic dieters are wasting there protein, and all thats left over is put on as muscle from heightened hormones like ive said before, keto diets would be more effective if the carbs were 15-20%

This would not only be safer, but you could still have 20-25% protein, and still keep fats to 55-65%

This would still lead the body to enter ketosis, it would take longer, but the side effects would be less, and gluconeogenesis wouldnt occur if you ate your carbs smartly, at correct times

keto diet isnt simple numbers, dapunisher who does it has to take into account of good timing.
 
EDIT:This is also why the diet was made for epileptics, starving the brain of sugars for as long as possible, making it use ketones etc

ORIGINAL: vdk_au

It's nutrition, not diet twisted! I try to avoid using the word "diet" now, although I sometimes seem to have to use it. 

 
lol yes, diet is a very strong word...with many meanings somewhat.

twisted, I was just wondering if you have any idea with relation to the amount of times you visit the toilet (#2 that is :D ) with the amount of food you're absorbing. I remembered you said there was some relation, but I didn't quite agree then. I usually go b/w 2-3x a day, with 3x being the norm the last two weeks, and I have to say it is a decent amount of waste I release (sounds gross hey, but I'm guess you're a science student :D).

I'm just getting really sick of the results I'm getting. I have to admit I haven't changed that much since I started in terms of strength and muscle, although I eat very well and train smart. I have lot of willpower, but yea the results I'm getting are making me feel down. I'm going to ask the specialists more about and a bit of research but I was just wondering twisty if you have any sources , i.e in your textbook etc that may be worth sharing. I'm sure somewhere in the texts, there'll be a mention of "Crohn's disease". Thanks anyways.

I go to #2 around once a day, or once every 2 days, apparently considering my calories right now are 4000 ish, im apparently "constipated"
 
I think im just a good absorber lol.

Remember egestion is removal of waste not needed from food
excretion is the removal of metabolic waste such as urea, pyruvate yada yada.

erm, crohns disease appears to affect mainly the ileum and large intestine, absorption of food begins mostly at the duodenum, sometimes jejenum (small intestine) so in theory you shouldnt have much trouble, unless of course it is happening at the duodenum which could happen, it can happen in any part of the alimentary canal from knowledge.

I would ask your specialist first, he would know more, but if your intestines literally wont absorb food, theres little much you can do...apart from eating certain types, simpler foods, easier to breakdown and digest...if you eat many complex carbs and your proteins come from BCAA styled forms, and very complex proteins, it wont absorb as much.

Despite a lot of advice given here, you may have to intake more whey than usual people, as whey is easily absorbed and fast, you might also benefit from more milk, as caesin isnt a complex protein either i THINK-but dont quote me on that

I havent studied crohns much at all, i know a lil bit, but not enough to give any firm advice or reasonings, just speculations and relatively fair educated guesses, sorry vdk.

I think I do recall from the specialists about it had nothing to do with not being able to absorb food, but yea I'll ask him next time I see him about the other questions I have on mind.

well it seems to mostly occur in the large intestine and ileum so...i assume absorbtion should be fine, your toilet amount would just increase, you may also become easier dehydrated from loss of fluid from large intestine not having its osmotic properties working fully.

Other than a cut and paste job from bb.com and some opinions do you have any research studies and data to support your conclusions

 
About 3 years worth of Advanced level science education, that research good enough for you?
 

Have you ever tried the diet?

 
No, have you ever tried arsenic? No, but its still known to kill
 
 
Im not saying keto will but...you get my point...
 
 
Im glad you are able to post continuous study after study of the benefits of keto diets, post them up, il look through them and get my professors to look through them.
 
Internet articles ESPECIALLY diet articles are out for money, so its not exactly surprising to see them about.
 
You can find (yes i know im repeating myself) both sides of the coin on the internet in pretty much any subject.
 
Thats why im going back to key science and stress testing it, than just copyng and pasting random ass science conflicting with articles-that never gets anyone anywhere, because the science on both sides of the camp is usually flawed, and not just that, but both support each end of the argument, so its always stalemate, even though it shouldnt be.
 
 
Im glad youve had success with the keto diet for that long Nj, i never said it wouldnt work, it does, and your results prove that, but id suggest a doc check-up very soon, if your heart, kidneys and liver are all working fine, youre genetically very lucky.

Agree totally the bb.com article is flawed that is why my research in the topic centered around works such as Lyle McDonald's Ketogenic Handbook (a technical research document) and Mauro Dipasquales (sp) Anabolic Diet, not some self professed internet expert on bb.com.  You might want to look at those soruces or maybe not.
 
I must be genetically lucky in some way since my annual physical and blood work yields incredibly healthy results according to my physician.  Pressure, chlosterol levels, etc -PERFECT
 
We can agree to disagree on the merits of the diet.  IF board members want to chime in or do independent research to decide if it is for them or not, that would be a good thing to do.  I have no overwhelming need or desire to prove my "case".
 
Don't think I said steroids are without sides.  Just don't buy into the general publics hysteria about roid rage, causing death, etc
 

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Out of interest Nj, i noticed just lately how you cycle carbs around workout times etc...rather than weekend carbing, i would personally say thats better than weekend carbing...but man...4-5 years of keto, thats hardcore.
 
Il look up them names and read more about it
 
Dont get me wrong i dont deny the results, id be a fool to suggest it doesnt work lol, but with everything health implications are present, my mum and millions of other people have smoked for 30+ years and havent got lung cancer, others smoked for 6 months and got lung cancer
 
you have done keto for 4-5 years and youre healthy
5 year old child and 15% of all keto dieters get heart problems, and go away once off the diet
 
 
Just the way the dice rolls i guess...
 
 

Don't think I said steroids are without sides.  Just don't buy into the general publics hysteria about roid rage, causing death, etc

 
Ah fair enough, im thinking of a different person then.
 

Yes I found the cyclical diet too detailed to fit into my life. Maybe the statistics you are citing are credit (I am sure they are) I guess coming from a family with a history of diabeties,which I would contend in my families  case was linked to their nutritional habits, I chose for myself a different philosophy and feel I have benefied from it-Send me your e-mail address, I might have a copy of the Lyle's work I can e-mail you

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