i was just curious, do you curl? yes or no.

don't want any reasoning or explaination, just a simple yes or no

first day with no buds, 11/17, need a new job. 1 down 13 to go.

forgot to put it for myself


no.

first day with no buds, 11/17, need a new job. 1 down 13 to go.

I cycle direct arm work. One cycle (6-12 weeks) I'll include bicep work, the next I won't.

As far as triceps go, I think they should get direct stimulus, they make up 2/3 of your upper arm.

I just hate when people think parallel dips are a tricep exercise, or chin-ups are biceps exercise. The agonist muscle in parallel dips will always be the chest, your triceps is not capable of lifting your own weight by itself. Same thing with biceps, how many times can you curl your bodyweight? The biceps just work slightly harder with a supinated grip. It's still the lats as the agonists.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Yeah, won't take much time or effort to chuck in a couple of sets at the end of a session IMO!

Inverse and preacher curls here.

Yes, just a couple sets of standing/preacher curls whenever I get the change at the end of a workout.

Goals by end of 2009:
Bench 205
Squat 255 ATG
Squat Clean 185

"There is no elevator to success, you must take the stairs."

depends upon the program im running and how much volume it already has.

MVP


I cycle direct arm work. One cycle (6-12 weeks) I'll include bicep work, the next I won't.

As far as triceps go, I think they should get direct stimulus, they make up 2/3 of your upper arm.

I just hate when people think parallel dips are a tricep exercise, or chin-ups are biceps exercise. The agonist muscle in parallel dips will always be the chest, your triceps is not capable of lifting your own weight by itself. Same thing with biceps, how many times can you curl your bodyweight? The biceps just work slightly harder with a supinated grip. It's still the lats as the agonists.

MVP,
    Even if elbows stay by sides and body is vertical, it's still more chest than tri's on dips?  If that's true, then good news for me.  I always feel it more in the tri's than the pecs.  I've been using an assist machine lately so feet are on a press down bar, which keeps me vertical.  Think I'm more angled when I do body weight w/weight belt.  Also supinated grip is thumbs pointing away from each other?  Thx!
 
Oops!  Forgot to vote:  Yes, I curl.  I mean come on:  I'm pretty good at it, imo, and get an awesome pump!  Why wouldn't I?  Big ego rush!  ;)

When I was younger I would curl all the time, like some people just bench. I still do it once a week, just to see how much I'm still able to do.

Team Keine Ausreden = No Excuses
mein scheinehund ist daheim
48 yrs young
6'5" 270 Lbs

MVP


I cycle direct arm work. One cycle (6-12 weeks) I'll include bicep work, the next I won't.

As far as triceps go, I think they should get direct stimulus, they make up 2/3 of your upper arm.

I just hate when people think parallel dips are a tricep exercise, or chin-ups are biceps exercise. The agonist muscle in parallel dips will always be the chest, your triceps is not capable of lifting your own weight by itself. Same thing with biceps, how many times can you curl your bodyweight? The biceps just work slightly harder with a supinated grip. It's still the lats as the agonists.

haha, parallel dips are a tricep exercise. and chin-ups are a great mass builder for the biceps. if u keep yourself completely upright and not leaning forward in any way at all, as well as utilizing a closer grip, you are going to destroy your triceps better then most compound or isolation movements. MVP try throwing 10 sets of 3 of these dips into a routine and i can guarantee you that u will add mass to your arms.

and as far as chin-ups go. they are my easily on of my favorite bicep exercises. yes of course the lats are involved in the movement but with a two second pause at the top and bottom, while really focusing on squeezing the biceps u can wear your biceps out much faster then your lats!!! and i mean really squeeze. it all depends on how u do the exercise. if you are not pausing and just swinging your self up you will not work your biceps as hard. but correctly done the chin-up is one of the best bicep mass builders there is.

i dont mean this in a negative way MVP but i think u rely a little too much on what your personal training books are telling you rather then what you have experienced through training. chin-ups and dips are very good mass builders for the arms!!!!!!!!!

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

I certainly know dips kill my tri's

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

I've curled once in the past 4 months.  Hasn't affected my arm growth either.  I always felt like curls were a waste of time anyhow.

http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Seos-Log-2008-m442008.aspx

I dont think there's a need to curl until your noobie gains stop.  When do they stop?  Thats for you to decide, but I think most people think that theyre past their noobie gains too early and blame it on genetics or being a "hardgainer"

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

yes i do, i didnt use too, but i wanted to add some size on my biceps so i've added them once or twice a week at the end of my workout

5 RM
Bench Press: 240 lbs
Hang Clean: 225 lbs
16 yrs old
190 lb

goal bench by end of football season : 285

Daniel265


haha, parallel dips are a tricep exercise. and chin-ups are a great mass builder for the biceps. if u keep yourself completely upright and not leaning forward in any way at all, as well as utilizing a closer grip, you are going to destroy your triceps better then most compound or isolation movements. MVP try throwing 10 sets of 3 of these dips into a routine and i can guarantee you that u will add mass to your arms.

I never said they won't work your biceps. I just said biceps are not the agonists. You cannot curl your bodyweight, the lats are still the prime movers in a chin-up. I never once said that biceps aren't worked during a chin-up. My message clearly said they are not the agonists. Try doing skull crushers with your body weight, why can't you? Because the triceps aren't the prime movers, the chest is.

and as far as chin-ups go. they are my easily on of my favorite bicep exercises. yes of course the lats are involved in the movement but with a two second pause at the top and bottom, while really focusing on squeezing the biceps u can wear your biceps out much faster then your lats!!! and i mean really squeeze. it all depends on how u do the exercise. if you are not pausing and just swinging your self up you will not work your biceps as hard. but correctly done the chin-up is one of the best bicep mass builders there is.

Regardless of what you do, overhead pulling is the primary function of the lats. The biceps will work harder during a chin-up than a pull-up, but is not the concentric mover. Can you curl your bodyweight? I doubt it. That's where the lats come in.

i dont mean this in a negative way MVP but i think u rely a little too much on what your personal training books are telling you rather then what you have experienced through training. chin-ups and dips are very good mass builders for the arms!!!!!!!!!

Once again, who said they wasn't a good mass builder for the arms? I said they are not bicep dominant. The lats are the dominant muscle group. This is primary function of the lats. If two muscle groups primary function (in the case of a chin-up, elbow flexsion and overhead pulling, which is primary function of the lats and the biceps) the larger muscle group will always automatically take more stimulus. That's common sense, nothing a personal trainer book has to tell you. By the way, ACE is scientifically proven writings, but I don't let them tell me anything I didn't already know.

One of the reasons your lats exists is pulling in the vertical plane. It's a primary function, hence the chinning movement to stimulate the muscle tissue.

Biceps are not the main targeted muscle of a chin-up. The movement is dependent on the lats. Biceps are the synergists to the movement. Those small muscles in your arms alone could never handle your bodyweight. When was the last time you curled your bodyweight?

Common sense tells the rest of us that the bigger muscles are for the more demanding tasks with the smaller muscles providing assistance and stabilization, not PT books.

Chin-ups target the latissimus dorsi muscle, assisted by the brachialis, brachioradialis, biceps brachii , teres major, posterior deltoid, infraspinatus, teres minor, rhomboids, levator scapulae, middle and lower trapezius and pectoralis muscles. Chin-ups are thought to build width and thickness to one's back, as well as to promote growth of the biceps, brachialis, brachioradialis and pronator teres.

Source:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin-up

Wikipedia may not always be a good source, but the truth was written in this case.

Muscles

Target

• Latissimus Dorsi

Synergists

• Brachialis
• Brachioradialis
• Teres Major
• Deltoid, Posterior
• Rhomboids
• Levator Scapulae
• Trapezius, Lower
• Trapezius, Middle
• Pectoralis Major, Sternal
• Pectoralis Minor

Dynamic Stabilizers

• Biceps Brachii
• Triceps, Long Head

http://www.exrx.net/Wei...i/AsUnderhandChinup.html

Another source backing up what I say. Now show me something with legit background that says biceps are concentric movers to overhead pulling.

With your argument, are barbell rows biceps dominant? They will make your biceps grow. No, they are synergists to the movement just like they are with chin-ups. Infront pushing is the primary function of the chest, when the chest primary function and the triceps primary function are in the same exercise, the chest will still automatically push more weight, this is factor of common sense and nothing more.

I am not disputing the biceps are not worked in the chin-up and triceps are not worked in the bench press. I am simply disputing that they are concentric movers and not synergists.

I took the liberty of proving my point with parallel dips too. Did you know they are called "chest dips"?

Muscles

Target

• Pectoralis Major, Sternal

Synergists

• Deltoid, Anterior
• Triceps Brachii
• Pectoralis Major, Clavicular
• Pectoralis Minor
• Rhomboids
• Levator Scapulae
• Latissimus Dorsi
• Teres Major

Stabilizers

• Trapezius, Lower

Source:- http://www.exrx.net/Wei...lSternal/WtChestDip.html

Muscles Worked With Chest Dips:
Targeted Muscles Pectoralis Major Synergists: Anterior Deltoid
Triceps Brachii
Pectoralis Minor
Rhomboids
Levator Scapulae
Latissimus Dorsi
Teres Major Stabilizers: Trapezius (lower)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ridgely8.htm

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

you really take the technical books a bit too far...I think your missing his point and getting too wrapped up in copy and pasting anatomy information, which no one is disputing.

There a few different ways to perform dips. leaning forward will recruit more chest and the more you stay upright, the more triceps are going to be recruited.

Dips are a great way to hit the triceps and chin ups are a great way to hit the biceps. In fact these should be encouraged because your hitting your arms with compound exercises.

However, isolations should be included if and when you have the training and knowledge to incorporate them.

I dont think there's a need to curl until your noobie gains stop.  When do they stop?  Thats for you to decide, but I think most people think that theyre past their noobie gains too early and blame it on genetics or being a "hardgainer"

That pretty much sums it up on how I feel about the subject. People who havent even been training non-stop (excluding deloading) for at least a year should not even worry about these things.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34
you really take the technical books a bit too far...I think your missing his point and getting too wrapped up in copy and pasting anatomy information, which no one is disputing.

How do I take technical books too far? I am not missing his point. I said parallel dips aren't a direct tricep exercise and I said chin-ups aren't a direct bicep exercise. I never said the two wasn't worked.

There a few different ways to perform dips. leaning forward will recruit more chest and the more you stay upright, the more triceps are going to be recruited.

Regardless, even with an upright torso the triceps will still only be synergists to the movement. That was my whole point. 

Dips are a great way to hit the triceps and chin ups are a great way to hit the biceps. In fact these should be encouraged because your hitting your arms with compound exercises.

When did I say otherwise?

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I saw where you said it. You said:

MVP



Dips and Chins suck and you shouldn't do them 'cos curls and tri extensions are 26x more effective, my book even says so

jus' keepin it real

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

When keepin it real goes wrong

back to the point, No one said that dips or chins were direct arm exercises, nobody at all. And I agree with everything you said, I just dont think it was at all necessary to go that far as no one disputed anything to chins/dips being lat/chest dominate respectively.

_Virtuoso_


I saw where you said it. You said:

MVP



Dips and Chins suck and you shouldn't do them 'cos curls and tri extensions are 26x more effective, my book even says so

jus' keepin it real

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Haha. Funny Virt.

back to the point, No one said that dips or chins were direct arm exercises, nobody at all. And I agree with everything you said, I just dont think it was at all necessary to go that far as no one disputed anything to chins/dips being lat/chest dominate respectively.

Sometimes you have to go that far to get a point across. And I'm glad you agree.

I don't understand why everyone is making fun of me for being a PT though and believing in physiology. Hurts my fillinz

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

_Virtuoso_


I saw where you said it. You said:

MVP



Dips and Chins suck and you shouldn't do them 'cos curls and tri extensions are 26x more effective, my book even says so

jus' keepin it real

Is that a "real" MVP quote or is someone foolin' around?  Beause I actually undertood every last word in that quote.  There was not a single 'agonist,' 'concentric', 'prime mover,' or any other word I didn't have a friggin' clue what in the hell it meant.  ;)

no ones making fun of you, just didnt think you needed to pull out the anatomy book for this one. lol.

But im sure you get excited doing that, and you certainly seem passionate about writing it. I just read Daniels post and didnt see anything wrong with what he said, he acknowledged dips and chins were chest/lat dominate but explained how the arms can get hammered which is true.

You both are correct. So you both win teh internetz

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

LMAO!

Agonist muscle is the prime mover during an exercise. For example, chest during a bench press. Anterior delts during an overhead press, biceps during a curl.

Concentric is the action where you're working against gravity, the "positive" part of the ROM. When the muscle is shortening.

Antagonists oppose the action of the agonist. For example, triceps during a bicep curl, the "eccentric stabilizers" so to speak.

Synergists assist the agonists. For example, biceps during a barbell row.

Eccentric is the part of the range of motion where you're working with gravity and the muscle is trying to shorten but due to the external resistance being greater than the contraction from the motive force, it is forced to lengthen. The "negative" part of the ROM.

Then there's the isometric part where your muscle is shortening with no change in the motive force.

Just a couple of clarifications. :P

Nm0ney34


no ones making fun of you, just didnt think you needed to pull out the anatomy book for this one. lol.

But im sure you get excited doing that, and you certainly seem passionate about writing it. I just read Daniels post and didnt see anything wrong with what he said, he acknowledged dips and chins were chest/lat dominate but explained how the arms can get hammered which is true.

You both are correct. So you both win teh internetz

Ah, maybe I did get carried away. But it seemed to me he was saying they weren't synergists. Cause he said parallel dips are a tricep exercise, seemed like he meant they were the agonists.

I apologize peepz!

Chins and dips will make your arms grow, but arms aren't the prime movers. I think we can all agree.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

i think nmoney summed up what i was trying to say perfectly, and i guess i may have miss interpreted your quote MVP. i guess i took ur quote as saying that chins and dips will not help with arm growth, when really u were just talking more about the agonist, antagonist, and synergists of each movement.

and i am currently getting certified using ACE as well so i didn't mean any harm there

Current: 19, 5'11", 190@7%

bench:305 squat:370(atg) deadlift:475
Goals: 4plate squat, 5plate dead

"obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated"

Yep. Daniel we are in agreement. Sorry about the anatomy lesson everybody.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I do and won't stop

That's me.

Do what you want but again try to focus on the main topic and stay cool.

I am a split type of person and that's part of it. I like the feeling, the pump and of course the results I have that you might not have because we are all different.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

Nic


I do and won't stop

That's me.

Do what you want but again try to focus on the main topic and stay cool.

I am a split type of person and that's part of it. I like the feeling, the pump and of course the results I have that you might not have because we are all different.

Nic I was looking through the critique my physique section and saw an old picture of you on there, you're a pretty big guy.

I think you and I are in the same size in height and weight, although your bodyfat is a bit lower.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

So we agree chins are a leg exercise?

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

Yep. The quads are the concentric movers. Pulling overhead is their primary function.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Okay, okay, let me try this one:  For chins, the lats are the main movers.  The biceps are the agonists. The hams, quads, hip flexors, and abs are assisters.  The delts and triceps are primary and secondary antagonists, respectively,  and that goes for the concentric, isometric, and eccentric phases of the lift.  There's by definition no change in motive force during the isometric pause.
 
All this applies for supinated, pronated, or neutral grips.  With the supinated grip, however, the biceps (err, what's the 5 dollar word here?) are additionally activated (don't think that's it, dammit).  :(

MVP,  how'd I do?