is there muscle after 50 for a hardgainer

This is my first use DB forum. Perhaps there's someone out there (with considerably more experience in weight training than myself) that can give it to me straight.
I am 56 and have always had a slim build (you know: skinny arms, flat butt, etc.). My shoulders are a bit narrow and certainly not powerful in appearance and my chest remains underdeveloped. I used to go to the gym back in the '70s but, left to my own devices, it was the blind leading the blind. Five years ago I restarted my quest ... with considerable embarassment, fearing I'd be laughing stock of the gym. Happily this was not the case. I've worked with two excellent PTs (SuperSlow and Body for Life protocols). But, after a couple of years, this got kinda expensive ... and the results still weren't coming in. My body statistics are good to excellent for my age (fat to muscle ratio, heartrate, blood pressure, etc.) ... so I must be doing something right. BUT my dream is still to like what I see in the mirror.
I've read the books and compared the protocols/recommended routines/equipment. But - before I waste much more time - I'd like to actually SEE some results. I've been told that genetics and age are holding me back. So, folks, am I kidding myself in my quest to achieve some modest gains (the kind you can see) at the ripe old age of 56? I DO enjoy the discipline of my workouts and hope that someone can suggest the best way to put my time/energy to good use.
Oh, yes (and here's another kicker) ... I also have to deal with some joint pain. My tender, ache-y, weak feelings joints seem to be undermining my little (though ready, willing and able) muscles.
What's a guy to do??? Start stamp collecting?!?

No stamps for you just yet.
Welcome to DB- While it can always be rough trying to get gains, and is probably even more so at the age of 56, (I'm thirty, so wouldn't know from personal experience) I CAN tell you that it's definitely possible. First things first, you're going to need to get your diet straight. Head to our nutrition forum, look near the top for the calorie calculator post- Use the info in there to find out h how many calories you're going to need in order to gain. Some of the methods take your age into account too- Make sure to use one of them. Then, with that number, we can help you put together a muscle building meal plan.
Training- Working one or two muscle groups a day will work wonders for you- Not sure how those other routines you've mentioned are layed out, but here's a sample of what you could try-
Monday- Chest
Tuesday- Legs
Wednesday- Shoulders
Thursday- Back
Friday- Arms
This way, each group gets an entire week to rest before it's time to work it out again. For each group, you want to try to use big compound movements- Let us know if you want specific exercises.
With those three bases covered- Diet, training and rest- You should be gaining in no time.
Also- Just so you know, Old Navy, our finest moderator, recently won world champion status in a bodybuilding competition for the over sixty crowd- Seek him out and pm him. He'll help you out a lot.

You're never too old.  It will be slower in coming than with these young whipper-snappers who are dripping testosterone, but good changes are yours for the asking, working, eating and sleeping!  Cpl is always full of great advice.  And have you seen his back?  He knows what he's talking about!!

Do you warm up those achey joints before lifting?  Try a dynamic warm up.  Get a free guide from:  http://www.optimum-physical-training.com/warm-up-and-cool-down.html
That kind of stretching has enabled me to work with my perennial tendonitis (both in helping it go away and preventing rebouts).  You don't need joint problems, though, to take advantage of kinetic stretching :)

Maybe, finally, ON will be meeting his match soon . . . .

"If there's nothing else that's relevant, I'll be leaving now"

"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground"

Hi Tom................its great to hear of older people who like to work out.............Im New to the world of working out at a gym...........August 2005.........I love this sight...........so much knowledge is here............im older myself 42.......I too have problems with my joints, I have arthritis, and the gym has really helped me. Just wanted to say hi and welcome to the sight.................Tam

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/womanwonder/

Thanks gzinkl for the advice. It's appreciated.
I do understand the necessity of warming up. Currently I rely on 10 minutes of cardio. I also begin each exercise with a light-ish weight set, followed by three sets of progressively heavier weights (in the Body for Life protocol). Often I reach failure on the last set. Sometime not.
I know that conventional wisdom supports the High Intensity approach (heavy weight / few reps) but, given my joint pain, I am extra cautious about grappling with especially heavy weights without the support of a PT or spotter. I have a tendonits situation in my right inner elbow that really kicks up with bicep curls, etc. ... so your advice is especially welcome. It's really frustrating you know: it always seems that my wimpy joints are complaining long before my muscles are ready to throw in the towel.
I'll check out the optimum-physical-training guide you mentioned. It REALLY makes me sit up and listen when you mention that it has enabled you to work around your tendonitis and that it has helped prevent rebouts. Thanks!

Hey thanks cpl -
I checked out the nutrition forum and used the calculators. Based on my slightly dated body fat figures, looks like I'd require 3000 to 3200 calories per day to "build mass" (with 161 gms in protein). I have no idea what I am currently taking in (I've gotten a bit sloppy w/ record keeping). I see that it is important to ease on up when it comes to increasing calorie intake. Will do. What would your recommended "muscle building meal plan" look like?
Re: workouts. I'm currently going to the gym 4 days a week (Monday - upper body; Tuesday - cardio workout; Thursday - lower body; Friday - cardio workout). So I am lifting only 2 days a week (with a 10 min cardio warm-up). I have a gym membership so going 5 times a week is a possibility, but 3-4 would be easier to schedule. Could the 5 catagories you mention be combined in any way, or is it really better to isolate the muscle group workouts? I understand the necessity of sufficient recovery time and do not want to get off on the wrong foot. What do you recommend? Should I continue with the pre-lifting cardio warm-ups and drop the alternated cardio workout days?

You can work two muscle groups in the same session- Try something like this for example.
Day 1- Chest/back
Day 2- Legs/shoulders
Day 3- Arms/abs
 
Just try to put a day in between each if possible- If not, definitely put a day between days 1 and 2, since working the lower back the day before your leg workout can be a real pain.
To find out how many calories you're getting from your foods, check out Fitday.com's nutrition database- Find the food and the amount of it in there, and it'll tell you exactly how many calories you're getting from it, and how much protein/carbs and fats. It's an excellent resource, and should help you start getting those meal plans together- Give me some time, I'll get you some links to some sample meals/daily meal plans to get you started.
As far as the cardio goes, hang on to it- But personally, I'd ditch the cardio warmup for the weights, and just warm up the target muscle group with a couple of really light weight sets instead. That warms up the particular area you're going to work, which cardio won't really do.

Hey PTOM, welcome to the board!  I am 58 yrs young, I have also been working out for 5 years as well and yes, you can grow muscle after 50.  I am 5'4", 150 lbs gained 1" on arms and have a 29" waist, 11-12% body fat.  Before I started lifting, I was 176lbs, 34" waist 19% body fat. 
 
Here is a recap of what my program is like:
 
workout 3x per week, cardio 2x per week (20 minutes) on offdays.
 
Monday:  Chest, shoulders, tris,  3 exercises each, 4 sets of 8
Wednesday:  legs, 4 exercises 5 sets of 8, abs 3 exercises
Saturday:  Back, bi's, abs -  3 exercises each, 4 sets of 8
 
I alternate my workout days m-w-sat or tu-th-sun
 
I found out that at are age you need at least 1 or 2 days between workouts. Never do 2 consecurtive workout days.  Your body/test levels don't recover as quickly.
 
Nutrition plan:  6 meals a day - shake first thing in AM,  breakfast, lunch, afternoon snack, dinner, shake before bed.  On workout days I have a shake immediately after my workout.  I do drink on occasion and limit myself to "1" cheat day on the weekend when I also have desert.  Other than that I stick with my eating plan and make few exceptions. 
 
Supplementation Plan:
 
Creatine - first thing in AM, immediately after workout (5g)
Glutamine - good for recovery  5-10g
MultiVitamin  1 after breakfast
Fish Oil caplets  3g / 2x per day
Relacore - cortisol reducer 3x per day
Lipo-6 - fat burner
Test Booster - (important for men over 40).  Currently using Diesel test/Raw Test Stack or T-Bomb II
No Product:  No-Explode/Nitrix stack
 
Medical Advice:  Get you bloodwork done and test for:
Total Test, Free Test, DHT, Estrogen(E2 for male), Cortisol, Full Lipid panel, DHEA, LH and FSH and TSH, so you have a base to measure from.  If your test levels are low, discuss  with your doctor on therapy treatment, Test gel or Depo-test injection.  Low test levels will make it harder for you to gain musclea nd have a better quality of life.  
 
Hope this helps, Guiman.

Thanks for all the info guiman. I appreciate the shared wisdom. I get a bit a spooked, though, by test booster and fat burner supplements. And, I'm very ill informed about products like "No-explode." It sounds like they work for you though. Does anyone out there have an opinion about the worth of such supplements? Are there studies that back up the product claims? How 'bout any adverse health side effects? And what's the story with Relacore and other cortisol reducers. Don't get me wrong, guiman, I'm not dismissing your suggestions. It's just that all this is new to me. What I DO know is that, at age 56, I have twin interests: looking as good as I can (better late muscles than never muscles) ... and protecting my health in general. The Test replacement issue is a hot one. I understand the allure of nurturing our supply of Test, but I want to be careful with replacement therapies, etc. as I have heard contrasting opinions re: Test therapy triggering prostate cancer (my father died of it - yikes). Well, looks like I've raised a few new questions now. Any opinions out there?

PTom:
I just joined this forum yesterday, but have been lifting for only 2 years, and I started lifting weights at age 50. Before that, I was working out with a chest expander, and seemed to be stuck, not getting any more results. Since I started lifting, I have seen great results, and gained 20 pounds of muscle. I do not do anything special for diet, just eat good foods, and eat when hungry. Next week, I will be switching routines, to improve my military press, bench, deadlift, and rows, to the Bill Starr 5x5 intermediate linear version workout, and from what I read about it, and about your goals and barriers, I think it may help you. Here is the link: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm  Be sure to read all of the other links in the article.
 
Also: This is the routine which I was using previously, which I really liked, and think it may also help you:
 
Monday: CHEST / TRI's
Flat bench and incline bench(alternate weekly which is done first)
alternate heavy and light. For example, week 1, you go heavy (5x5) on Flat bench and lighter (3x10) on Incline. Week 2 you switch to heavy inclines and lighter flats.
Close Grip Bench
pullovers

Tuesday: LEGS
Sumo or Full Squat
Calf Raise
SLDL
Lunges

Wed:
rest

Thurs: DELTS
military press
Seated 80 degree OH press
Side Lateral Raise
Cuban Rotation or Front Raise (alternate from week to week)

Fri: BACK / BI's
Deadlift (standard or Sumo)
Bent Over Row
Rear Delt Row
Curl or Reverse Curl ( alternate same as flat and incline bench above with curl)

Sat/Sun: rest

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2: 8,9

Good job at going back.  It is totally possible for anyone to put on weight no matter what age you are.  You just have to make sure you are doing the right things at the gym and at home in order make growth possible.  I say stick to a full body workout 3 times a week and focus on compound exercises like squats, deadlifts, dips, pull ups, bench press... These exercise will spark a need for your muslces to grow and they will also help raise your testosterone levels.  Also nutrition is very important too.  If you are eating the wrong stuff then it will make it hard for your body to grow.  Veggies are very important and so is proteins and good fats. 
 
Well if you need more instructions go to my site and read the free articles I have on there for building muscles and nutrition.  It should help you out a lot with knowing the best approach to gain weight. 
here is the articles page http://www.hardgainermusclebuilding.com/articles.php
here is the hardgainer home page http://www.hardgainermusclebuilding.com/
 
best of luck to you,
Cory