h-dol, havoc, should I take the step?

43 years old. Looking to get 10 lbs of clean muscle and drop fat from around 15% to 10 or 9. If you see my journal you can see where Im at. What does this sort of ave need to work? Is it legal? Can everything  be got from the local nutrition store?

If this is not a good ave to jump into, is there anything else that can be of benefit?

Both are steroids.  How long have you been lifting seriously?  I would first get your hormone levels checked by your doctor to see if you can get on some HRT which would be more effective and you would have no legal concerns.  Although both of those products are legal.

First of all, the first gentleman to reply is correct, they are both steroids.  The terminology used for the "legal" steroids or prohormones etc.. is very confusing.  I'll just mention first that you will see I don't have many posts, generally in these forums your knowledge is based on your number of posts and you opinion is not respected unless you reach an arbitrarily determined post frequency.  I happened upon your question and although I rarely respond I think based on your maturity level and that I think you HAVE done some looking into this so I wanted to help.   I have a BSc. (biochemistry), PhD. (organic synthesis biochemical steroids) and have done extensive cell signaling work, I like to think if there is a steroid I have synthesized it.  I will respect the idea that you MIGHT be educated on this stuff so I won't give you baby talk you seem like an intelligent person, but I'll be somewhat layman in case your an english major or something.  There are certain groups on chemicals called functional groups, these are alcohols, carboxylic acids etc.. they determine the overall function of a molecule, in biochemical terms they determine which receptor's or "locks" that a given "key" or transmitter/signaling chemical can turn to fully open or partly etc.  Steroid as a term is defined by a molecule with a set of four fused rings, based on cholesterol.  All of the prohormone (nonsensical term) and prosteroids (even worse) are steroids, those terms were invented by the supplement community to trick you into thinking you are consuming something safe and legal.  To legitamize the word prohormone, first define "hormone" as a non nutritional substance either present in or introduced to the body to affect a cell signalling pathway and induce a predetermined response. (does not need to be of andro or anabol nature), then change pro to pre, call it a prehormone.  Prosteroid is ridiculous, those molecules exhibit response unchanged therefore they are anabolic steroids or androgens, straight up.  The prefix pro is a blatant attempt to fool you out of your hard earned money when there are much better choices.  The materials available in health food shops is not legal as the DEA sees it, look up the analogue law, this post is too long for a cut and paste, as a former professional expert witness and police agent in Canada I did what I could to argue for defendants even though working for crown.  These laws (we only follow loosely) are written in a way that makes every sterol based chemical illegal, including vitamin D and cholesterol.  It all depends on the cops, for instance I was once arrested for being in possession of methamphetamine precursors red phosphorus and psuedoephedrine, I had been out to get some cold medication, one box, and being a smoker I had matches, few books.  With my chemical background they argued it was my goal to make this drug, even though you need some 10000 books of matches to make an ounce.  My point is you are no safer buying health food products under the analogue law as you are finding a source of methenolone or oxandrolone and using these materials which are exponentially safer than prosteroids and have properly defined effect sets and side effects, they are understood.  These fly by night prosteriods are garbage, their anabolic ratings are usually based on rat diaphragm muscle recieving such doses that they weight of the drug introduced has a statistically significant effect on the mass of the muscle itself causing false observations.  1-testosterone (which is not in the slightest bit a testosterone, it is the exact opposite of the definition) 700% more anabolic than test, are you serious? but that statement sold a ton of worthless bottles of pills, everyone worked out harder thinking it would work, they ate more, bought more protein, consumed, consumed, consumed and miraculously the put weight on, must have been the 1-test.
so, my recommendation, unless you don't think I know what I'm talking about would be to put your credit card back in your wallet immediately and do what the other fellow said, see a doctor, at your age you could probably get yourself on a testosterone replacement patch.  Take the patch and cut them open and rub the gel on your skin, you get about four to five times the dose that way, thats how patches work they need a huge gradient to drive the drug into your system so a lot is wasted with proper use.  Be sure to use antiestrogen as this is usually free test or base, which aromatizes very easily.  Letrozole is the most effective tool we have today for combating estrogen induced feminization, sometimes too effective especially seeing the normal dose is a whopping 25 times what you need, 100 micrograms is all your aromatase enzymes can utilize in 24 hours, maybe if you are a freak 500mcg.  It can cause too low of estrogen so if you use letrozole either go EOD or 75-100mcg per day (someone will say I'm wrong because their friend doesn't do that he uses 2.5mg like the box says, you can judge for yourself who is right), if you are using HRT in the form of patch test or gel you will probably get anywhere from 5 to 25mg per day, not quite enough to shut down your own production (or there would simply be no point, right?) but not quite enough for an anabolic effect unless you suffer from low test to start with.  Use tamoxifen citrate instead of letrozole for a less defined effect against letrozole (don't take both, they don't work well together) and it will boost your natural testostone levels by about 65%, and you do NOT need to exceed 5mg per day, again, your body can use no more than 5mg.  If you want to read a document I wrote about how all of the steroids are synthesized from DHEA and cholesterol and the huge scam of the prohormone industry and the dosage level scams feel free to email me or respond to this with another post and I will get it to you.  (I'm whispering this: you won't need to buy anything illegal and you just might find a way to boost your test levels by making a soup of cholesterol and yeast, what you do with info I put together over 15 years is totally up to you)

Ummm... okay well that was alot of rambling..  Maybe you could have cut to the chase a bit more?  It was hard for me to tell if you were saying they are androgenic straight up or they are very very mild androgenic steroids that are only working due to you changing your diet.. I honestly didn't know what to make of that sorry...

But what I do know is they do work..  I like to take them coming off an AAS cycle, into a cut to keep the muscle in which I have gained.  Then use Nolva or Tamox to keep the natural test up and block the estrogen receptors. Not that The estrogen receptors need blocking after a cycle anyways, since the DHT from the Androgenic steroids cause the majority of the estrogenic side affects anyways.

And

I agree with the natural ways to spike test levels and the drug you refferenced is just another way of saying Nolvadex.  It's the same damn thing, block the estrogen receptors, increase the natural test. 

Yes I'm aware that tamoxifen is nolvadex but were i to nolvadex someone might pass up a perfectly good option to purchase a generic tamoxifen because he is unaware that it contains precisely the same active component as nolvadex.  I don't recommend nolvadex because i believe the 10mg dose is far too high, I can find references if you like. (by the way, I'm not in the slightest being pissy with you, I enjoy debates with those that know something about this stuff).
I'm not sure if I said that the "prosteroids" don't work, but I'll clarify anyway.  I think I said they are not fully understood in relation to four anabolic steroids commercially available today:oxandrolone, oxymethalone, nandrolone and stanazolol (i see test as an androgen not an anabolic steroid).  The gentleman who pisses out all of these "prosteroid" on a daily basis, help me out I can't remember his name.  Anyway, I have been in drug development of an andro/anabol, the patent is pending but no drug no. at this point, this is eight years after conception of the prototype.  He finds a way to temporarily skirt the legal issue and quickly markets it under natural product laws with no scientifically valid human research.  He finds suiting research on animals (like rat diaphragm, which is a smooth non skeletal muscle) quotes it, and then takes your money.  Hey, maybe some of it works, but he has a big mountain to climb with me to say anything aside from slin or gh will be as anabolic as the bodies perfect androgenic steroid testosterone.  Proper drugs take years to develop and get approved for humans.  Hey, I've used them before, 1,4 andro, 1,4 boldendione and so on, usually as chemical feedstock in the lab to produce test, drostanolone, metheneolone variants.  I've taken it orally and injected 1-test and showed little if any change in blood level of even 1-test itself.

anyway, over to you.  can you please quote the active ingredients in the products he referred to so I can at least show enough respect to argue with you knowing what i'm arguing about.  there are so many know i'm not sure of the actives.

h-drol is mainly DHEA and an AI, I think.  Havoc is Epitiostanol with a methyl group attached.

you are offline and I missed a part of your post.  what i was saying is that any prohormone or prosteroid is a steroid by biochemical definition. the terms are smoke screens so people don't feel like they are taking a steroid.  androgenic factor is easier to obtain than legitimate anabolic activity so if the prosteroids have activity, then likely androgenic, the anabolic component, i my eyes is coming from the ambition driven harder work outs and eating.
my arguments come from binding affinity assays of these molecules to the target receptors either by nuclear magnetic resonance or electron spin, you cannot fool those machines, the human machine can be fooled and that can be good.  who cares why the health food store products work, if they work for you then your money is well spent.  the fact is that (like i said i don't know the active in your stuff) lots, i haven't studied all, show very little affinity for the receptors as testosterone.
there were three "prosteroids" a.k.a. true anabolic steroids that came out post pro hormone ban, damn i can't remember what they were called, but they were serious, serious ****, I was very professionally jealous.  they were the first three.
***are you a moderator, I own, I guess i cant say the name, well its a company that is sympathetic to the needs of todays muscle seekers.  I've got stuff to give away based on old time favorites in exchange for word of mouth advertising, future business. and links, can you tell me the o.k. way to offer this****

good arguing with you, i'll check back., i can make you happy you responded.

are you serious? DHEA EVeryone cancel your credit cards QUICK.   I'm pulling out the merck to look at the other.  thanks

epitiostanol is a antineoplastic.  I don't where it is methylated, i assume at 17, won't change much but oral activity.  Here's the good new about antineoplastic's

cited from wikipedia "antineoplastic drug"   this is what the supplement companies are giving you?

Health effects/occupational exposure

The adverse health effects associated with antineoplastic agents (cancer chemotherapy drugs, cytotoxic drugs) in cancer patients and some non-cancer patients treated with these drugs are well-documented. The very nature of antineoplastic agents makes them harmful to healthy constantly dividing cells and tissues, as well as the cancerous cells. For cancer patients with a life-threatening disease, there is a great benefit to treatment with these agents. However, for the healthcare workers that are exposed to antineoplastic agents as part of their work practice, precautions should be taken to eliminate or reduce exposure as much as possible.There already is a limitation in cytotoxics dissolution in Australia and the United States to 20 dissolutions per pharmacist/nurse, since pharmacists that prepare these drugs or nurses that may prepare and/or administer them are the two occupational groups with the highest potential exposure to antineoplastic agents. In addition, physicians and operating room personnel may also be exposed through the treatment of patients. Hospital staff, such as shipping and receiving personnel, custodial workers, laundry workers, and waste handlers, all have potential exposure to these drugs during the course of their work. The increased use of antineoplastic agents in veterinary oncology also puts these workers at risk for exposure to these drugs.[3]

It is methylated at 17, I rarely hear of any bad side effects from Havoc/Epistane though.

o.k. thanks, I'm looking for 17 methyl ep right now, could be worded differently or something, I'll find it.  who knows, its possible that the 17ch3 could render it a totally different substance in its activity.

To the OP, Havoc/Epistane is solid. I am in PCT right now. I did a 5 week cycle. It will get you strong as strong. IBE's Epistane is cheaper and RPN is on the verge of discontinuing their product.

Make sure you have support supplements and plenty of taurine. I just wrote a review on it a couple of days ago.

can i ask your reasoning behind lots of support supplement and taurine.  could that be because thiodrol is cytotoxic and prevents the unwinding of the DNA helix (the basis of its effect of fast dividing cancer cells) so that healthy cells and/or cancer cells don't divide.  I could see the point there because taurine has been shown to support healthy function in the liver and kidneys which would be needed when consuming poisons like high dose sulphur cuz oh yah, thiodrol is the epithiol (sulphur bridge) derivitive of androstane.  I've got it!  lets try the epiflouro or bromo, iodo? derivitives they are gonna keep coming for all eternity, people wont start to die until they reach the point of providing the arsenic salt of the 17 oh because seagull testicle responded positively to "trials" (the 3 day in house tests with all the arsenic-drol you can swallow and thick juicy steaks cooked just the way you like them) and it was shown to be 4.576x10-8 % more andrenomobanolic than testosterone.  These materials are not tested clinically on humans for human consumption, they are based on greed and unscrupulous racketeers who weren't able to complete a science degree to make real drugs so they switched to marketing.  thiodrol shows no affinity for any androgen oriented receptor.  If anything it shows anabolic activity due to its toxicity effects being exhibited on aromatase.  I'm sorry to break it to you.  Besides if you are using something that you feel works like a steroid (which it is, just not an anabolic one), you are doing damage to yourself like you would with a steroid, and you need to practice prophylaxis with supplements to protect yourself, and since the DEA would still charge you under the analogue act for possession if they missed thier coffee that day, why not just use something solid and safe like metheneolone or oxandrolone or nandrolone where there is no question, no going to the anecdotal evidence that maybe so and so gained or whatever, the stuff kicks ass and you get results with little side effects (you don't need to inform me of deca dick or nandrolone latency period, believe me I am aware of all the side effects).  I'm really sorry about my cheekiness you guys but this b.s. industry really aggravates me, you people work hard for that money and this is highway robbery.  I'm not one of those stubborn opinionated people that will say even though you gained a ton and a half over a year that your workout doesn't work because its not designed properly and i don't do it that way.  If the stuff works for you it works, its that simple, and remember there is more that your blood hormones to think about when injesting cytotoxins so have everything checked.......liver especially!

bench 14lbs  dead 76.4lbs  squat last one was 14 inches, 3 coils

Bremac, I think you lost me with that. Not simple enough for me.

I Have a good 25 years of lifting, but it was not what I would call very serious. I was always a 3 day split person and hit every bodypart twice a week, but ate what I wanted.

In 02 and 03 I hit the gym about 3 times a week and ate bad, then quit going. Not untill I puffed to 205lbs in late 2003 did I begin to lift again, and this time I ate better, but still not great. Had a 1 year layoff due to a surgery and then was back into it again determined to make it work. Id say for the past 3 years I have been serious with my training, but in the last year got very serious with the nutrition and have since the beginning of this year been eating clean. Ive been using protien and creatine supps. for a bit. I cycle creatine on and off through the year.

Perrynaytor, I have seen your writeup on PCT. I really did not want to have to do a PCT with anything but I guess it goes with this territory. The guy at our local VS nutrition store said the brand of haladol (gaspari nutrition) they sell had 6oxo in it and that you did not need to take anything else . He never mentioned PCT either. I did ask about that and thats when he said that about the 6oxo.

Im probably just getting impatient with this. At this point though, I feel that if I dont stop trying to cut, I will loose down to nothing, and if I just maintain clean, then I will be at my current level unless I try a clean bulk. Either way I look at it, it will be another year before Im getting to where I want to be. After working from 205 @ 30+ %bf to 135 @ 15%bf over the past 6 years, Im ready to be at my goal, but Im not there yet. If I had done all this better when I started, I would most likely be at my goal by now, but thats how it goes, so now Im looking for an edge. I also wonder if me being 43 makes it all harder.

Still not sure if I want to do this though this way. I wanted to see a weight of 140 to 150 @ 9% or so with 4 inches off my waist, about 2 off the hips, add an inch or 2 in chest, better lats and traps and add about an inch or 2 on arms in about 2 months. Dont know if diet and training will get me there at this point. Thats why I had an intrest in this stuff.

If I went this route, what are some products better suited for first timers to get dry size with min side effects and min PCT? If nothing is really good in this area, are there other supps that besides protien and creatine that might help me to get there quicker?

Thanks much.

PCT isn't that big of deal, but to get the legit shiz, you are going to have to order online.

GNC sells like some Haladrol-50 or whatever garbage which isn't the same as H-Drol. If it has 6oxo in it, it's just an aromatase inhibitor which is used in PCT. I was hoping that PCT thread would get stickied so we could all refer back to it.

PM me, I need to tell you some things.

Perrynaytor


PCT isn't that big of deal, but to get the legit shiz, you are going to have to order online.

GNC sells like some Haladrol-50 or whatever garbage which isn't the same as H-Drol. If it has 6oxo in it, it's just an aromatase inhibitor which is used in PCT. I was hoping that PCT thread would get stickied so we could all refer back to it.

PM me, I need to tell you some things.

it shouldnt be stickied because this is a natural bodybuilding forum.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

I'm stacking epistane again at the moment whilst coming off oxandrolone.

''If one is after quick results one never learns an art.''

Erich Fromm

What are you stacking it with, Adam? I just bought some Epistane and I am stacking it with Trenadrol this time around. I also will run a six week cycle instead of five.

PCT is not an exact science and it depends very much on the compounds you use during steroid therapy.  A very successful technique with low aromatizing compounds is to use HCG at a low dose throughout the therapy.  NOt for everyone and very compound dependant.  If it a non aromatizing compound like metheneolone you could do that with little other concern.  However if you did that with test or methandrosteneolone you'd have major estrogen implications post therapy.  HCG does more than just act on the leydig cell stimulation pathway, its not all good either.

Really its the aromatizers you will most commonly find and use, usually store bought steriods are in this class.  I'm a Phd not a medical doctor so I can't prescribe drugs nor do I even give serious recommendations but when a customer asks my answer is usually letro or anastrazole while you are dosing then tamoxifen after your last dose.  That is totally general, if you are in store only guy then look for an antiaromatase, I think there is a respectable one called 6oxo or 7oxo or something maybe 11oxo.  Then for an antagonist like tamoxifen I wouldn't have the foggiest, maybe those oxo's are, maybe i'm backwards.  My point is keep your estrogens production low while dosing then block them when you are done.

Honestly if I was in your position and didn't want to worry about PCT and only had ten pound aspirations, oxandrolone, metheneolone, drostanolone.  The first two are oral, metheneolone can be both, I think there is a legal version of drostanolone called supradrol or something, a 17methymasteron kind of trip.  Can anyone give me an amen on that, I don't know for sure.  anyway, modest dosing of those for moderate time periods=no justifiable biochemical reason to resort to PCT.  Boldenone same thing but its harsher there was a oral boldenone legal as well, prohormone, well proboldenone, they are all steroids by nature.  I called the first D.C. testprop product "protest" as a joke and people thought it was andro, canadians aren't always that bright.

Dude your posts give me a huge headache.

''What are you stacking it with, Adam?''

Currently have been doing oxandrolone for the last 5 weeks and during the last 3 weeks will be stacking 100 mgs of it a day with epistane 40 mgs. You'll have good fun on trenadrol - Pretty strong stuff though might want to get your hands on some tamoxifen.

''If one is after quick results one never learns an art.''

Erich Fromm

After reading some of this and thinking about this, Im not so sure this really is the direction I want to go. Thanks all for the input though.

Perrynator,

the 6-oxo you are referring to, is that the one that has been around for many years, or has it been reformulated for legal reasons?  The ai's and aa's but more so the ai's I do commend the supplement industry on.  I'm trying to figure out the active in it, for steroid (definition steroids not legal definition) molecules like DHEA it is more logically 7oxo (or keto, same thing), is it type one or type two, perhaps i have myself on a wild goose chase looking at steroids.  You seem like you've been around this block a few times can i send you something to look at on PM for your opinion?

williemon


After reading some of this and thinking about this, Im not so sure this really is the direction I want to go. Thanks all for the input though.

good decision IMHO. i mean, scr*wing with the body chemistry is def not the way to go if you want to live long and healthy.
 
eat well, rest well, push hard on the Iron!

Anbe Sivam. Period.

Bremac, you can PM me. I dunno much about chemistry, but I do know the active ingredient in 6oxo is something like you said there. A lot of what I know came from Anabolics 9th Edition. But hell, I really don't know half enough to be honest.

Williemon, I see nothing wrong with DS as long as you take the precautions and support supplements. Just start out with something mild like a bottle of 3-AD and Advanced PCT both made by Anabolic Xtreme. 3-AD is a legal ph that converts to some hibby jibby when it hits the liver. I haven't read up on the stuff in forever but yeah.