full body or splits?

hi im very new to body building. im 22, 6'3", and about 200lbs. not great bfp either. i would like to bulk up and cut down as well... more interested in bulking. i would like to know what program would work best for me as i am a noob. full body 3-4 days a week of a 4-5 day split??? any help would be great!

imo, full body 3-4 times  a week is overtraining.  i think a 4-5 day split would work well for you.  i do a five day split:

monday: chest
tuesday: arms
wednesday: legs
thursday: shoulders
friday: back

Age: 18
Height: 5'7"
Body Weight: 180-185
BF %: 8 %
Incline Barbell: 195 x 8
Squat: 295 x 8, ass to ground
Shoulder Press: 175 x 8
Barbell Row: 195 x 8
Skullcrushers: 105 x 10
(All lifts are on 3rd set)

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

imo, full body 3-4 times a week is overtraining. i think a 4-5 day split would work well for you. i do a five day split:

monday: chest
tuesday: arms
wednesday: legs
thursday: shoulders
friday: back

Couldn't be farther from the truth.

perfect_pickle, as a noob, one of the best routines you can choose is Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength routine. You can google it, or it about here (great info):

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

imo, full body 3-4 times a week is overtraining. i think a 4-5 day split would work well for you. i do a five day split:

monday: chest
tuesday: arms
wednesday: legs
thursday: shoulders
friday: back

Couldn't be farther from the truth.

perfect_pickle, as a noob, one of the best routines you can choose is Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength routine. You can google it, or it about here (great info):

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

yea musclemachine i cant believe ur suggesting to some1 new to bodybuilding that a 3 day full body routine is overtraining but that he should do a 5-day split, thats just ridiculous

someone call teh forum police

6'3"  @215

Squat 1x20x275

press: 190, Deadlift: 450, Bench:285, P.clean: 235, Squat: 385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

ok great thanx guys. ill check that out. oh by the way, what does IMO mean? i see it alot.

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

imo, full body 3-4 times  a week is overtraining.  i think a 4-5 day split would work well for you.  i do a five day split:

monday: chest
tuesday: arms
wednesday: legs
thursday: shoulders
friday: back

 
Without knowing anything about the person's physical conditioning, level of training, routine selections along with reps, sets and weights and exercises... how could you make such a blanket statement that a 3 - 4 day fullbody is overtraining? 
 

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

well,

when i first began, i did a split, and haven't ever regretted it whatsoever

Doing a full body split every other day is overtraining.  one day rest for a bodypart is not adequate time to get it back to its full potential, unless you are taking some sort of anabolic agent, which i am assuming he is not.  in my five day split, i have atleast 5 days rest, making my muscle fresh for the next workout.

IMO, full-body splits are geared towards the idiots who lift to flex at the beach and blow kisses to themselves in the mirrors, not for "bodybuilders,"
 or whatever people want to call themselves.

I never even specified the exercises, set and repititions volume for any of the exercises.  I never even told him to do that split.  Read carefully, and it says "I do a five day split"

I've trained my brother the same way I began training, and we have two totally different body types, and he went from 135 lbs. at 6% body fat to 175% at 10% body fat, and he is constantly improving. 

I've also done more reading and research concerning bodybuilding than a majority of the people on this forum.

Age: 18
Height: 5'7"
Body Weight: 180-185
BF %: 8 %
Incline Barbell: 195 x 8
Squat: 295 x 8, ass to ground
Shoulder Press: 175 x 8
Barbell Row: 195 x 8
Skullcrushers: 105 x 10
(All lifts are on 3rd set)

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

well,

when i first began, i did a split, and haven't ever regretted it whatsoever

Doing a full body split every other day is overtraining.  one day rest for a bodypart is not adequate time to get it back to its full potential, unless you are taking some sort of anabolic agent, which i am assuming he is not.  in my five day split, i have atleast 5 days rest, making my muscle fresh for the next workout.

but ur not working the muscle as hard during a full body routine because of fewer sets per bodypart per workout so u dont need as much rest in between workouts

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

IMO, full-body splits are geared towards the idiots who lift to flex at the beach and blow kisses to themselves in the mirrors, not for "bodybuilders,"
or whatever people want to call themselves.

what does that even mean?

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

I never even specified the exercises, set and repititions volume for any of the exercises.  I never even told him to do that split.  Read carefully, and it says "I do a five day split"

I've trained my brother the same way I began training, and we have two totally different body types, and he went from 135 lbs. at 6% body fat to 175% at 10% body fat, and he is constantly improving. 

I've also done more reading and research concerning bodybuilding than a majority of the people on this forum.

u said he should do a 4-5 day split. also i never said that a 4 day split is overtraining, im saying that its ridiculous u would suggest any 3 day full body routine is overtraining but say that a 5 day split is fine.

and idk who that last comment is supposed to be geared towards but coldfire, smoundzou, and myself are not ignorant at all when it comes to bodybuilding (i know u didnt use "ignorant" but what ur saying basically comes out as "i know more about bodybuilding than u") . ive spent about the last 1.5-2 years reading about bodybuilding every single day. smoundzou has been lifting for 25 years. idk how long coldfire has been learning about bodybuilding but he's certainly knowledgeable about the subject

a 3 day full body routine is working the same exact things EVERYDAY, a 4-5 day training split is working one or two bodyparts ONE DAY and not working it again for 3-4 DAYS and resting in the mean time. had he said a 3 day training split, i would have suggested that, as long as he is working a different bodypart every workout.

he states he is interested in bulking, nobody does a full body routine to bulk.  a full body routine will build a minimal amount of muscle on ones body, so why would you suggest he does it? This is what i meant when i commented on who usually does full-body routines, although i did not think it was that hard to comprehend.

most people gain weight the easiest, when training properly, when they begin. So, a basic four or five day split with a moderate number of sets and exercises that includes all of the essential compound lifts will bring great gains.  Yes, you aren't working the muscle as hard in a full body routine, but if you make your best, or even quickest, gains when you BEGIN, why would you want to work the muscle with less intensity.

as for my last statement in the previous post, I was basically trying to state my credentials.  I have been bodybuilding for three years, and for these three years (beginning in highschool and now in college) when i am not doing schoolwork, at class, or at the gym, i am reading about bodybuilding.  I rarely go out during the week when all of my friends do, drink very little, and stay on a consistent diet, despite being in college.  I plan on competing in the summer also, and have been told that i will do very well. 

I also made workout splits for 3 people (all with different body types) i've met in college 3 weeks ago and trained them, and they have all made noticeable strength and mass increases in this time period, all on a 3-day SPLIT.

Age: 18
Height: 5'7"
Body Weight: 180-185
BF %: 8 %
Incline Barbell: 195 x 8
Squat: 295 x 8, ass to ground
Shoulder Press: 175 x 8
Barbell Row: 195 x 8
Skullcrushers: 105 x 10
(All lifts are on 3rd set)

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14
a 3 day full body routine is working the same exact things EVERYDAY, a 4-5 day training split is working one or two bodyparts ONE DAY and not working it again for 3-4 DAYS and resting in the mean time. had he said a 3 day training split, i would have suggested that, as long as he is working a different bodypart every workout.

If you've read as much as you say, then I'm sure you read about how it doesn’t take a week for a muscle to recuperate before it can be trained again.  A muscle can recuperate and be worked again as soon as 36 hours.  Thinking that a muscle needs 5-7 days rest before training it again is foolishness.  When doing a 3 day full body, the primary difference is you're breaking up the sets.  Instead of doing 12 sets for Pecs, it's usually broken down into 3 workouts of 4 sets.  You should dig a little deeper and do some research on how 5 day splits evolved into bodybuilding.. It was primarily due to steroid use.  Before the popularity of steroid use, most pro bber's did full body splits and some of those guys looked good enough to compete with today's roided out pro's..

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14
he states he is interested in bulking, nobody does a full body routine to bulk.  a full body routine will build a minimal amount of muscle on ones body, so why would you suggest he does it? This is what i meant when i commented on who usually does full-body routines, although i did not think it was that hard to comprehend.

I'm not sure how you have arrived at the conclussion that a fullbody isn't suitable for bulking?  Bulking is 99.9% diet.

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14
most people gain weight the easiest, when training properly, when they begin. So, a basic four or five day split with a moderate number of sets and exercises that includes all of the essential compound lifts will bring great gains.  Yes, you aren't working the muscle as hard in a full body routine, but if you make your best, or even quickest, gains when you BEGIN, why would you want to work the muscle with less intensity.

Again, a beginner will have good gains on almost any routine.  Frequency and micro damage are two of the key factors for inducing hypertrophy.  Micro damage can be caused by simply adjusting a weight by 5lbs from one workout to the other.  Working the muscle hard or to failure is by no means  a have to and in most cases actually slows down progress.. Most fully body routines are based of 5-7 effective compound exercises.

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14
as for my last statement in the previous post, I was basically trying to state my credentials.  I have been bodybuilding for three years, and for these three years (beginning in highschool and now in college) when i am not doing schoolwork, at class, or at the gym, i am reading about bodybuilding.  I rarely go out during the week when all of my friends do, drink very little, and stay on a consistent diet, despite being in college.  I plan on competing in the summer also, and have been told that i will do very well. 

I think it's great that you felt the need to provide your credentials but that means absolutely nothing.. I'm 45 years old and my 23 year old son has been training 3 X's longer than you have.. I've been training. 10'x longer.. but again that means absolutely nothing..

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14
I also made workout splits for 3 people (all with different body types) i've met in college 3 weeks ago and trained them, and they have all made noticeable strength and mass increases in this time period, all on a 3-day SPLIT.

OK.. My son is 23 years old 6' 220-225, 10% BF and is coming up on 19in arms.... all natural.. Again, this means nothing..
 
Also, from your over-training comment,  I'm actually wondering if you know what over-training is. 
Over-training is a state a person reaches when their CNS has reached a fatigued state.  It's more than muscle soreness and lack of growth.  It's a very serious condition that can takes 12 months or longer to reach.  I seriously doubt you have ever over-trained or even came close to it.. Probably don't even know anyone that has for that matter.. It's not easy to accomplish.. When I was in my early 30's I did fullbody and upper lower splits for months.. Lifting heavy weight and never even came close to CNS Fatigue..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

pretty much what smoundzou said other than that working a muscle hard could make ur progress slow, i believe u should always work hard. not neccesarily to failure but still hard. and i would say weighting is way more than .1% of bulking 

ORIGINAL: David1991

pretty much what smoundzou said other than that working a muscle hard could make ur progress slow, i believe u should always work hard. not neccesarily to failure but still hard. and i would say weighting is way more than .1% of bulking 

 
A muscle needs to be worked hard.. But hard dosn't allways mean heavy weight...but for some reason when you tell someone to work hard..they automatically assume that means train to failure... Moderate weight and time under tension can cause micro damage.. thats all that's needed to produce hypertrophy if the diet is good.
 
I was being facetious when I said 99%... If the diet isn't in check.. the best training prgram in the world will not produce lean muscle mass. If you eat like a horse.. and train like a turtle.. same thing, exept you'll get fat.. :)

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

well,

when i first began, i did a split, and haven't ever regretted it whatsoever

Doing a full body split every other day is overtraining.  one day rest for a bodypart is not adequate time to get it back to its full potential, unless you are taking some sort of anabolic agent, which i am assuming he is not.  in my five day split, i have atleast 5 days rest, making my muscle fresh for the next workout.

IMO, full-body splits are geared towards the idiots who lift to flex at the beach and blow kisses to themselves in the mirrors, not for "bodybuilders,"
or whatever people want to call themselves.

I never even specified the exercises, set and repititions volume for any of the exercises.  I never even told him to do that split.  Read carefully, and it says "I do a five day split"

I've trained my brother the same way I began training, and we have two totally different body types, and he went from 135 lbs. at 6% body fat to 175% at 10% body fat, and he is constantly improving. 

I've also done more reading and research concerning bodybuilding than a majority of the people on this forum.

lol I actully laugphed out loud.

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing." Friedrich Nietzsche

"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted" John Lennon

IMO means In my opinion, sometimes people use IMHO = in my humble/honest opinion.

Smoundzou is a very smart individual and I agree and would suggest you take his advice. I have been lifting on and off for about 7 or 8 years, and he gave me some pretty damn good advice not too long ago.

I used to do the 5 day split, and I DID see results. In fact im sure I will go back in the future as I put on a bit more muscle. I have recently started a modified version of HST which is a full body program and I am very pleased with the results so far, in such little time. Just remember your workout is not going to do much at all unless your diet is on key especially for bulking.

Im not going to add fuel to the fire, this is not my argument. So ill stop there.

Pickle I wish you the best of luck with whatever route you choose to take.

ORIGINAL: perfect_pickle

ok great thanx guys. ill check that out. oh by the way, what does IMO mean? i see it alot.

6'3"  @215

Squat 1x20x275

press: 190, Deadlift: 450, Bench:285, P.clean: 235, Squat: 385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

a 3 day full body routine is working the same exact things EVERYDAY, a 4-5 day training split is working one or two bodyparts ONE DAY and not working it again for 3-4 DAYS and resting in the mean time. had he said a 3 day training split, i would have suggested that, as long as he is working a different bodypart every workout.

he states he is interested in bulking, nobody does a full body routine to bulk. a full body routine will build a minimal amount of muscle on ones body, so why would you suggest he does it? This is what i meant when i commented on who usually does full-body routines, although i did not think it was that hard to comprehend.

most people gain weight the easiest, when training properly, when they begin. So, a basic four or five day split with a moderate number of sets and exercises that includes all of the essential compound lifts will bring great gains. Yes, you aren't working the muscle as hard in a full body routine, but if you make your best, or even quickest, gains when you BEGIN, why would you want to work the muscle with less intensity.

as for my last statement in the previous post, I was basically trying to state my credentials. I have been bodybuilding for three years, and for these three years (beginning in highschool and now in college) when i am not doing schoolwork, at class, or at the gym, i am reading about bodybuilding. I rarely go out during the week when all of my friends do, drink very little, and stay on a consistent diet, despite being in college. I plan on competing in the summer also, and have been told that i will do very well.

I also made workout splits for 3 people (all with different body types) i've met in college 3 weeks ago and trained them, and they have all made noticeable strength and mass increases in this time period, all on a 3-day SPLIT.

Do you even know how much it takes to fully recover from one weight training effort? You are never fully recovered before the next workout (unless you wait for WEEKS between workouts). The point is the body does not need to be fully recovered after each training effort.

This model of train, then wait for super-compensation, then train again is dead. No one in the world accepts it. ALL the atheletes train very frequently, without waiting for recovery.

Do you want to call the olympic weightlifters, or powerlifters and tell them they are overtraining?
Or maybe someone should have told Bill Starr he overtrained all his athletes?

Before you tell me they are not bodybuilders, most of them are bigger and more muscular than you. And bodybuilders trained this way until Dianabol became popular. See any connection?

Your credentials of 3 years of bodybuilding mean nothing, just like my 8 years mean nothing.

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14
I've also done more reading and research concerning bodybuilding than a majority of the people on this forum.

Ahh... I think this might be the problem.  You might want to cancel your subscription(s) to the muscle mags.  Most are filled with mis-information and tent to lead people down the wrong path to training.  Most of the routines posted in those mags are crap and are geared toward the pro BBer that prefer to chemically induce growth.."juice". 

I'm not ragging anyone that has chosen that path but unless you're using certain aids to induce growth... and help repair the body, those routines actually slow progress.. Again, a muscle only needs micro damage to grow.  It' dosn't take 45 minutes to an hour hitting a single muscle to achieve this..

Flowers and plants are a great example.  Dump a gallon of water on them once a week and the roots will more than likely rot and the flower will die...

On the other hand.. sprinkle a few drops of water on them several times a week and they will obsorb the water and grow.
 
And no, I don't have any examples with unicorns or rainbows if anyone is thinking that.

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

I like this argument.  I recently have just been reading about the supercompensation vs. dual factor theory.  A lot of what I've read favors the dual factor over the supercompensation theory, not to say that supercompensation doesn't work.  I've been living by the principles of supercompensation for my first few years of lifting, meaning that I would work a muscle really hard and then give it at least a week of rest before I worked it again (aka 5-day split, push/pull/legs, etc..).  I did that in my first couple years of lifting.  The results weren't bad, I built some muscle.  I didn't really have a great diet though, so I could have gotten better results.  My splits did include some compound movements though (although I didn't even know what a compound movement was when I first started).  I would say I wasted a lot of time doing a bunch of isolation work though.  I attribute all my gains back then to newbie gains.
 
I've also been doing an upper/lower split for the past 6 months on NROL.  I wouldn't say NROL is based on supercompensation because it works major muscle groups more then once per week, but I also wouldn't say that it's based on dual factor either because there's no periods of intense loading and deloading.  This training method worked great for me.  This is also the first time I ever focused on my diet though, which had a lot to do with the gains I've made. 
 
Next, I will be trying the Rippetoe and Bill Starr full-body methods where you do only three major compound movements each workout.  I will be squatting 3 times a week with these routines.  These routines have been known to pack on lbs. and lbs. of muscle within a few months.  The advanced versions of these routines are based on the dual factor theory, where you go through periods of high-volume, high-intensity work, and then you go through periods of lower volume, lower intensity work where you allow for recovery from fatigue.  Both the intermediate (linear), and advanced (dual factor) versions use only 3 compound lifts per workout, 1 of which is squats (every workout).  And I have read that these routines built tons of muscle within months so long as one eats in a caloric excess.  I'll be sure to share my results once I give it a try.
 
Basically, I don't think there really is a best method.  If you lift heavy things and eat a lot of food, you will build muscle.  Some methods may be better for some people then others, but the most muscle is built by doing compound lifts and eating a lot of food.  For me, the upper/lower split from NROL has worked the best for me so far.  I'll see how this full-body thing goes. 
 
Pick whatever type of split you want.  If your split includes squats, deadlifts, bench, overhead press, pull-ups, dips, rows, and maybe some olympic lifts you will build a s***load of muscle, as long as you feed them enough.

And in agreement with Smoundzou, there's tons of information out there about bodybuilding, but there's also a lot of garbage out there.  Nothing beats the basics - heavy weights and lots of food.

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

imo, full body 3-4 times  a week is overtraining.  i think a 4-5 day split would work well for you.  i do a five day split:

monday: chest
tuesday: arms
wednesday: legs
thursday: shoulders
friday: back

 
I can't do a full body more than 2x/week.  Mental burnout.
 
I actually prefer a body part split 3-4 days.

ORIGINAL: brihead301

I like this argument. I recently have just been reading about the supercompensation vs. dual factor theory. A lot of what I've read favors the dual factor over the supercompensation theory, not to say that supercompensation doesn't work. I've been living by the principles of supercompensation for my first few years of lifting, meaning that I would work a muscle really hard and then give it at least a week of rest before I worked it again (aka 5-day split, push/pull/legs, etc..). I did that in my first couple years of lifting. The results weren't bad, I built some muscle. I didn't really have a great diet though, so I could have gotten better results. My splits did include some compound movements though (although I didn't even know what a compound movement was when I first started). I would say I wasted a lot of time doing a bunch of isolation work though. I attribute all my gains back then to newbie gains.

I've also been doing an upper/lower split for the past 6 months on NROL. I wouldn't say NROL is based on supercompensation because it works major muscle groups more then once per week, but I also wouldn't say that it's based on dual factor either because there's no periods of intense loading and deloading. This training method worked great for me. This is also the first time I ever focused on my diet though, which had a lot to do with the gains I've made.

Next, I will be trying the Rippetoe and Bill Starr full-body methods where you do only three major compound movements each workout. I will be squatting 3 times a week with these routines. These routines have been known to pack on lbs. and lbs. of muscle within a few months. The advanced versions of these routines are based on the dual factor theory, where you go through periods of high-volume, high-intensity work, and then you go through periods of lower volume, lower intensity work where you allow for recovery from fatigue. Both the intermediate (linear), and advanced (dual factor) versions use only 3 compound lifts per workout, 1 of which is squats (every workout). And I have read that these routines built tons of muscle within months so long as one eats in a caloric excess. I'll be sure to share my results once I give it a try.

Basically, I don't think there really is a best method. If you lift heavy things and eat a lot of food, you will build muscle. Some methods may be better for some people then others, but the most muscle is built by doing compound lifts and eating a lot of food. For me, the upper/lower split from NROL has worked the best for me so far. I'll see how this full-body thing goes.

Pick whatever type of split you want. If your split includes squats, deadlifts, bench, overhead press, pull-ups, dips, rows, and maybe some olympic lifts you will build a s***load of muscle, as long as you feed them enough.

Just a minor correction:

Supercompensation and dual factor do not contradict each other. Supercompensation is a special case of dual factor theory, and it works for beginners/intermediates because they recover from session to session or week to week.

I thought that supercompensation was where you work the muscle, and you then let it recover fully before working again.  Whereas, dual factor was where you work the muscle, and you start to let it recover, but you then work it again before it's fully recovered - a balance of gain and fatigue.  In dual factor you gain as much as you can until you are just about worn out, but then you go through longer periods of recovery.... This is just what I got out of what I read, but basically it's too in depth IMO. 
 
I do enjoy reading about all the different methods and theories, but in reality I do know what actually works - lifting heavy weights, eating a lot of food, and sticking to it!

ORIGINAL: Minotaur

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

imo, full body 3-4 times  a week is overtraining.  i think a 4-5 day split would work well for you.  i do a five day split:

monday: chest
tuesday: arms
wednesday: legs
thursday: shoulders
friday: back

I can't do a full body more than 2x/week.  Mental burnout.

I actually prefer a body part split 3-4 days.

 
I don't think anyone is arguing that a 3-4 day split is bad.  As you mentioned above, your decision to not do a 3 day fullbody is due to mental burnout, which has nothing to do with how the body repsonds.  Most trainee's, especially beginners will respond better to a 3 day fullbody routine. 
 
I've done every type of workout imaginable.. and even the 5 day one muscle per day workouts have some good points.. but IMHO.. not for a beginner.  Pounding your pec, or delts, lats or quads 1 X every 7 days with multple exercises and sets is a little more than the beginner needs.. which goes back to what I said before.. can often do more harm than good.
 
Most people become interested in bodybuilding, run out and buy a muscle mag, read it from cover to cover and automatically think, these 5 day one muscle routines are the bomb..
 
Again, Anyone who is interested or has the free time.. do a little research on how these routines evoloved.. Most were due to the introduction of sterods into bodybuilding.  They enabled the bodybuilder to do these massive workouts with heavy ass weights that over-load the muscle to or almost to the point of CNS... Then, partly due to the steroid use.. they would be able to recover within a 7 day time frame and happily repead the process again....
 
Big difference between a steroid using pro and an average joe lifter..
 
Not directed at you, Minotaur...
 
And for any lifters within this forum who states all they have ever done is a 3-4 day split and then turn around and openly criticize a fullbody routine makes absolutely no sense what so ever.. How can you criticize something you've never tried or even taken the time do do?    

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: brihead301

I thought that supercompensation was where you work the muscle, and you then let it recover fully before working again.  Whereas, dual factor was where you work the muscle, and you start to let it recover, but you then work it again before it's fully recovered - a balance of gain and fatigue.  In dual factor you gain as much as you can until you are just about worn out, but then you go through longer periods of recovery.... This is just what I got out of what I read, but basically it's too in depth IMO. 

I do enjoy reading about all the different methods and theories, but in reality I do know what actually works - lifting heavy weights, eating a lot of food, and sticking to it!

Super compensation can be interpreted many different ways.  From what I’ve read on it, there's actually no set time frame for determining when a muscle is ready to be trained again, but rather when the muscle is re-trained at a later date, it reaches a higher level of super compensation.   It's like the reverse of pealing an onion.. Each workout should gradually increase a trainee's super compensation level..  The process is repeated until the body reaches a stalled state which can easily develop into CNS.

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: brihead301

I thought that supercompensation was where you work the muscle, and you then let it recover fully before working again. Whereas, dual factor was where you work the muscle, and you start to let it recover, but you then work it again before it's fully recovered - a balance of gain and fatigue. In dual factor you gain as much as you can until you are just about worn out, but then you go through longer periods of recovery.... This is just what I got out of what I read, but basically it's too in depth IMO.

You are right, but when you are a beginner or even intermediate, the time between workouts is usually enough to recover. There is no such thing as being FULLY recovered, it never happens.

You can look at it in another way. A session is not one workout, but the time it takes you to stress your body enough to progress. For beginners it is one session so there is no meaning for periodization, that's why they have linear progress. For intermediates, it is around a week (3 workouts), so they recover and improve from week to week.

Later, when you are more advanced, you need several weeks or month of hard training to stress your body enough. So the session becomes several weeks. The problem is you can't recover quickly from this long session, so you need to have a deloading session. That's when the dual factor theory becomes much more useful.

I see.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I'm not sure if I'd be considered at the begginner or intermediate level.  That's why I'm still not sure if I should do Rippetoe's full body (begginer) routine or Bill Starr's full body (intermeddiate) routine.  They say you should start with Ripptoe before moving on to Bill Starr, but I'm not sure if doing 6 months of NROL would equate to replacing starting with the Rippetoe routine.  I'm going to be heavy squatting 3 times a week, so either way my ass is gonna be whopped!

ORIGINAL: brihead301

I see.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I'm not sure if I'd be considered at the begginner or intermediate level.  That's why I'm still not sure if I should do Rippetoe's full body (begginer) routine or Bill Starr's full body (intermeddiate) routine.  They say you should start with Ripptoe before moving on to Bill Starr, but I'm not sure if doing 6 months of NROL would equate to replacing starting with the Rippetoe routine.  I'm going to be heavy squatting 3 times a week, so either way my ass is gonna be whopped!

 
I would start with the Ripptoe program.. but don't let the title fool you.. although its a great routine for beginners.. it's by no means a beginner program.. and will indeed kick some serious a** if you follow the basic principals of the program..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: brihead301

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure if I'd be considered at the begginner or intermediate level. That's why I'm still not sure if I should do Rippetoe's full body (begginer) routine or Bill Starr's full body (intermeddiate) routine. They say you should start with Ripptoe before moving on to Bill Starr, but I'm not sure if doing 6 months of NROL would equate to replacing starting with the Rippetoe routine. I'm going to be heavy squatting 3 times a week, so either way my ass is gonna be whopped!

If you are not sure, you can always try Rippetoe's program, since it's the fastest progression you can get. If you are intermediate, you won't get much progress, so you can move to Bill starr's 5x5 or some program based on the texas method (It is explained in Practical Programming and you can find some info about it here, too).

Anyway, good luck :)

P.S .
Read the book before you start.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: brihead301

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure if I'd be considered at the begginner or intermediate level. That's why I'm still not sure if I should do Rippetoe's full body (begginer) routine or Bill Starr's full body (intermeddiate) routine. They say you should start with Ripptoe before moving on to Bill Starr, but I'm not sure if doing 6 months of NROL would equate to replacing starting with the Rippetoe routine. I'm going to be heavy squatting 3 times a week, so either way my ass is gonna be whopped!

  If you are intermediate, you won't get much progress, 

Anyway, good luck :)

 
Gonnna have to disagree on that.. 

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: brihead301

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure if I'd be considered at the begginner or intermediate level. That's why I'm still not sure if I should do Rippetoe's full body (begginer) routine or Bill Starr's full body (intermeddiate) routine. They say you should start with Ripptoe before moving on to Bill Starr, but I'm not sure if doing 6 months of NROL would equate to replacing starting with the Rippetoe routine. I'm going to be heavy squatting 3 times a week, so either way my ass is gonna be whopped!

If you are intermediate, you won't get much progress,

Anyway, good luck :)

Gonnna have to disagree on that..

Care to explain?

If you disagree with that, you are disagreeing with the author of the program as well :)

The reason it won't work if you really are an intermediate, is that you will need more work to stress your body and some weekly periodization since you won't recover as quickly as a beginner.