full body or splits?

the workout you listed seems fine exercise wise, but then you run into the frequency problem. Thats a 5-7 day rest depending on how you do it

I just dont think thats necessary nor optimal, while im in the gym I want to be as optimal as possible, in regards to both strength and hypertrophy.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

smoundzou


Is the routine a good split? yes, it's full of good functional compound exercises however, it lacks frequency.. As Nmoney previously said, the body doesn't need a full 5-7 days between workouts.  Now with that said, would a person grow and gain strength on a routine like that.. ?   Yes, if they have an appropriate caloric intake and fully utilize the routine by consistenly adding weight, reps, speed variance, etc.... 

Beginners only, generally speaking, tend to gain linear progress on their lifts.. I've mentioned that I believe beginners do better with full body for the reasons you speak- frequency and consistently increasing intensity.

However, you're never really resting 5-7 days. As noted, your posterior chain is worked on legs day with squats.. then on back day with deadlifts.. really not much different than a full body that usually work like this

Squat

Deadlift

Squat

3 days per week the posterior chain is worked directly, with the splits- 2 days.. not much difference to be honest.. frequency is good for a beginner but can really effect an intermediate / advanced lifters central nervous system.. squatting three times per week at over 300-400 lbs per session, really effects the CNS.
 

Splits such as that were primarily desinged for BBer's who are using anabolic steroids.. The steroids give them the ability to push their bodies harder than a normal trainee, allow them to intake more food by increasing their appitite and allow their bodies to heal fro mthe massive amount of punishiment they are able to inflict on it... etc.....

I'd have to disagree with the bold statement smoundzou, simply because I believe bodybuilders on anabolic steroids tend to use the splits with a lot of isolations.. a mainly compound split basically would be for an intermediate or person who's been training for a few years that needs seven days, it's not always about muscle tissue recuperation.. the CNS has to recover, too.

Steroids speed up recovery, right? So wouldn't a full body with more frequency benefit an advanced lifter on anabolic steroids more than a routine allowing them to train each muscle group directly once per week? It would allow them to make more frequency increases, IMPO, using a full body.
 

Another issue i have with various types of split is, they allow too much opportunity for people to do waaaay to many isolations... IMO isolations for a person who has only been training a short period of time is nothing more than an invitation for injury... Isolations cause imbalances in muscle groups, often cause tendon and ligiment injuries and should just be avoided for at least the first year or until the trainee has a good understadning of his body and how it works and how it repsonds...

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more, I believe isolations are intended to assist compounds in bringing up lagging parts as I said to nm0ney earlier.. the routine should be kept compound unless on anabolics or if you're trying to make progress outside of adding intensity (weight).

For example, if you've used the principles of progressive resistance and reached your limit.. you still need to progress and make each workout better than the other... therefore, it's difficult to use intensity to overload muscle, so something has to increase.. whether it be the volume or intensity, so adding in an isolation movement (once again, we're talking about after progressive resistance principles have been added) can add to the overload of the muscle to make progression.
 

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Having someone capable of benching 405, squatting 405 and deadlift 500 lbs.. having them squat, bench and deadlift three times per week is a fatigued CNS ready to happen.

 
I don't want to open a can of worms but MVP I'm shocked you would make that statement.. CNS is a whole nother arguement that I'm not going to start up but I'll just say most people aren't even capable of pushing their bodies to CNS fatugue...

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

whether it be the volume or intensity, so adding in an isolation movement (once again, we're talking about after progressive resistance principles have been added) can add to the overload of the muscle to make progression.

I'm glad you said that cause it's a very good point that very few people ever come to terms with.. Isolations can and do serve a purpose people.. but again for the natural trainee.. it's later down the road.. Someone with lesss than a year under their belt isn't going to have much difficulty finding ways to progress by simply adding weight, addding reps, and temp variance.. But again, that's  great point.

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

im under the impression the body doesnt care about weight, a guy who can challenge himself with a 350 squat is the same to the body as a guy who is challenging himself with a 200 squat...

The amount of weight shouldnt matter as its all relative to the individuals body. But that the more experience you gain and higher up you get the longer it takes to progress.

smoundzou

Having someone capable of benching 405, squatting 405 and deadlift 500 lbs.. having them squat, bench and deadlift three times per week is a fatigued CNS ready to happen.

 
I don't want to open a can of worms but MVP I'm shocked you would make that statement.. CNS is a whole nother arguement that I'm not going to start up but I'll just say most people aren't even capable of pushing their bodies to CNS fatugue...

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

I'd have to disagree with the bold statement smoundzou, simply because I believe bodybuilders on anabolic steroids tend to use the splits with a lot of isolations.. a mainly compound split basically would be for an intermediate or person who's been training for a few years that needs seven days, it's not always about muscle tissue recuperation.. the CNS has to recover, too.

 
You're right.. I was refering more to the structure / frequency of the routine and not the selection of exercises... but I see your point and agree..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

I gather some of you might have comments on this split routine with huge volume by Mr. Tom Venuto?

You've heard the name I'm sure. But have you seen his bodybuilding workouts?

Insane Bodybuilding Split Routine by a Natural Bodybuilder

Let me point out my personal favs...

“The Quad Hobbler” (Leg training that will make you limp!)

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

smoundzou

whether it be the volume or intensity, so adding in an isolation movement (once again, we're talking about after progressive resistance principles have been added) can add to the overload of the muscle to make progression.

I'm glad you said that cause it's a very good point that very few people ever come to terms with.. Isolations can and do serve a purpose people.. but again for the natural trainee.. it's later down the road.. Someone with lesss than a year under their belt isn't going to have much difficulty finding ways to progress by simply adding weight, addding reps, and temp variance.. But again, that's  great point.

Yep.. don't get me wrong, I couldn't agree more than full body can work wonders for beginners... I've reviewed your full body program and think it's a great one.. I'd recommend it to any beginner on this site to try, even intermediate lifters. But as you become more advanced, can't make the same progress as you did when you were beginner.. you grow from progressive overload which demands some type of better to better workout.. once you reach the point where increasing the weight (phenomenal way to progress), it's usually good to throw in some type of exercise to have something new to grow from.. or else you'll pretty much be staying the same for a while.

I'm not anti-isolation or anything, but I do believe you'll need years of training experience before they'll benefit you.. compound movement training alone (splits or full body) can do absolute wonders for someone.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

The amount of weight shouldnt matter as its all relative to the individuals body. But that the more experience you gain and higher up you get the longer it takes to progress.

 
I think that's farily accurate to a certain degree... Problem being is bone structure, tendon strength and ligiment strength all play a role in determining how the body will recover.. and this is going to differ person to person.. one guy might be able to squat 500 2X's weekly while another guy is only able to recover enough to do it 1 X...

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

Marc David


I gather some of you might have comments on this split routine with huge volume by Mr. Tom Venuto?

You've heard the name I'm sure. But have you seen his bodybuilding workouts?

Insane Bodybuilding Split Routine by a Natural Bodybuilder

Let me point out my personal favs...

“The Quad Hobbler” (Leg training that will make you limp!)

Never saw the routine before Marc.. but I have heard of Tom Venuto and read about him and his nutrition advice is absolutely phenomenal.. I'll have a look at the routine.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

smoundzou

The amount of weight shouldnt matter as its all relative to the individuals body. But that the more experience you gain and higher up you get the longer it takes to progress.

 
I think that's farily accurate to a certain degree... Problem being is bone structure, tendon strength and ligiment strength all play a role in determining how the body will recover.. and this is going to differ person to person.. one guy might be able to squat 500 2X's weekly while another guy is only able to recover enough to do it 1 X...

Yep.. exactly.. which is why those factors in the equation to conclude whether the person would respond from a split routine requiring him to squat directly one time per week... then a full body that would allow him to squat twice per week..

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Nm0ney34


im under the impression the body doesnt care about weight, a guy who can challenge himself with a 350 squat is the same to the body as a guy who is challenging himself with a 200 squat...

It can be.. but you see the full body that allows you to do direct movements three times per week are mainly designed for beginners that can make that kind of progress.. once you're no longer capable of making that progress and taking advantage of it to it's full potential, using the same movement three times per week directly isn't as superior.

But a guy that squats three times per week using 405 pounds each session, his CNS will still need to recuperate, which is one of the reasons Louie Simmons has a lot of westside guys (powerlifters) not squatting as frequently as beginners..

Agreed that it takes a lot of time to fatigue someone's CNS and it doesn't happen over night...

My biggest moral so far, is you're never going 5-7 days without training a muscle group.

Shoulders are trained with chest, chest with shoulders = twice per week they're hit.
Back is trained with legs (rows and deadlifts), legs with back = twice per week they're hit.

That's just a few examples, you're still hitting the muscle group frequently as compound movements tend to do a great job of overloading multiple muscle groups.. but you're still hitting muscles hard twice per week with splits and not just once.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

But a guy that squats three times per week using 405 pounds each session, his CNS will still need to recuperate, which is one of the reasons Louie Simmons has a lot of westside guys (powerlifters) not squatting as frequently as beginners..

 
comparing a westside guy to most people who train is like comparing apples to oranges.. those guys at westside are squatting houses.. even the, "not so strong guys" and I say that sarcastically are squatting more than most people's combined 3 big lifts...
 
Once you start reaching bench numbers over 400'lbs, squats and deads in the 600 lb range.. it's different.. and puts  a tad bit more stress on the body... some will recover and some not so fast..
 
but for the average lifter who never reaches those numbers.. benching up to 225-300lbs 2-3 times  weekly or squatting and deading 300-400lbs weekly is completely doable for most.. but there are alwasy exceptions..
 
I don't think anyone has said anything here that is completely wrong..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

smoundzou

But a guy that squats three times per week using 405 pounds each session, his CNS will still need to recuperate, which is one of the reasons Louie Simmons has a lot of westside guys (powerlifters) not squatting as frequently as beginners..

 
comparing a westside guy to most people who train is like comparing apples to oranges.. those guys at westside are squatting houses.. even the, "not so strong guys" and I say that sarcastically are squatting more than most people's combined 3 big lifts...
 
Once you start reaching bench numbers over 400'lbs, squats and deads in the 600 lb range.. it's different.. and puts  a tad bit more stress on the body... some will recover and some not so fast..
 
but for the average lifter who never reaches those numbers.. benching up to 225-300lbs 2-3 times  weekly or squatting and deading 300-400lbs weekly is completely doable for most.. but there are alwasy exceptions..
 

Yeah, for someone that benches 225 3 times, they can still use progressive resistance and get stronger... most people tend to see their progress slowing down and believe their newbie gains are over but it's not true.. increasing calories and continuing to push and they can still increase...

For someone that can bench 315 3 times, it depends a lot on, as you've noted, their structure and bone frame and whether or not they can continue using movements frequently (for the frequent increases, without the use of anabolics)...

It's the advanced/intermediate guys, whether they be bodybuilders or someone that is just trying to gain hypertrophy, that I believe splits can suite... bodybuilders tend to not care about their squats, deadlifts and bench presses.. it's mainly powerlifter, which is mainly why you never see a powerlifting on a split, they train "movements" and not muscle groups.. bodybuilders tend train muscle groups directly for specific size (most uncaring of any strength compromise with the accompanying sacroplasmic hypertrophy).. so a lot of the split vs. full body can be goal oriented, I don't see a powerlifter personally, doing a split... I do see bodybuilders doing splits all the time though, because they're primarily training muscle groups for just specific hypertrophy and not movements or primary motions by the body.. 

I don't think anyone has said anything here that is completely wrong..

Me either.. I believe this is a great discussion and I know you're one of the more knowledgeable guys on this board smoundzou and I'm glad you've taken part in it.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

A very strong guy who can squat 600 for reps should not be having an issue with squatting 400 thrice a week. should he? Strength is a relative concept. But I guess if he is gonna squat 800 thrice a week assuming his 1RM is somewhere like 900/1000, he is gonna be in line for trouble.

Anbe Sivam. Period.

Ironman69


A very strong guy who can squat 600 for reps should not be having an issue with squatting 400 thrice a week. should he? Strength is a relative concept. But I guess if he is gonna squat 800 thrice a week assuming his 1RM is somewhere like 900/1000, he is gonna be in line for trouble.

Recovering from a 400 lb squat is tough, especially for someone's bone structure, joints, muscle and CNS..

It's not likely he can still make linear progression three times per week if he's squatting that much weight (full squat/below parallel), assuming he is training all natural... the part that makes full body superior is making progress more than just once per week.. if you're squatting that much weight, it's unlikely you'll progress much per week.. it's possible, but just not as likely..

He'll still get frequent leg training with a split - he'll do deadlifts on "back" day and then squats on "leg" day. Extension of the knee involves the quadriceps to be flexed, while explosive or slow pulling from the ground involves the posterior chain although there are alternate ways to utilize the hamstrings, reverse knee extension (like a hamstring curl) being one of them. The posterior chain is utilized to remain an isometric contraction during a barbell row, then it is hammered when you do a deadlift (all on the back day).. if you're doing power cleans on your leg day with squats.. assuming your lifts are heavy... twice per week like that is beneficial... sometimes the posterior chain is even worked three times per week with splits on shoulder day, assuming you are cleaning the bar yourself into the position of overhead pressing the weight.. giving that muscle frequent work, although the movements are not receiving frequent work (or as frequent), you wouldn't be able to make the beginner progress with that much weight anyway, although I do believe it's possible, just unlikely..

If you're a beginner that squats 185 for reps, squatting three times per week is suitable if your goal is to take advantage of the linear progression you can make with your squat.. but once again, as your weight progresses it gets harder.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Thats when periodization comes into play...

Making gains if your an advanced athlete on a fullbody or split is going to be longer then someone who is a beginner regardless.

When your that far along your aiming to make gains every couple of weeks to even months. Im not going to comment an further on this part because I myself am nowhere near advanced, I would rather others who are there or close to it speak about it.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

brihead301


I see.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I'm not sure if I'd be considered at the begginner or intermediate level.  That's why I'm still not sure if I should do Rippetoe's full body (begginer) routine or Bill Starr's full body (intermeddiate) routine.  They say you should start with Ripptoe before moving on to Bill Starr, but I'm not sure if doing 6 months of NROL would equate to replacing starting with the Rippetoe routine.  I'm going to be heavy squatting 3 times a week, so either way my ass is gonna be whopped!

What the? I thought you did Rippetoe's beginner program for ages, before you started to do Texa's method and then NROL now. I'm sure you're an intermediate or above, as I recall you saying you were like deadlifting with 4 x 45lbs on each side of a barbell? :)

Well it's re-opened...not that I wanted it to...but it seems you guys have the right to debate after all...till you start being mean.

You guys all know I am more of a split person than a fullbody person.
I've done both, I've switch from one to another. I've changed things up in both routines. I've tried a lot of routines, MAX-OT, Optimum Anabolic, good old splits, Starr 5 X 5 and the lists goes...

I've never felt the same pleasure working out than with a split routine. I am more of a fragile person, my body can generate a lot of strenght but my tendons havea tendency not to like that very much. That's why I ended up doind only splits.

Even if my body would be superman's like...I would not switch, I love doing splits, I love targetting that precise area in my back or that rear delt more...which I couldn't do with a fullbody.

I see no meaning in being strong, very strong, I see no meaning in being stronger than this or this member,  I doni't give a crap about numbers. I just stick to one and only on principle. Do what you like, because this is the only way you'll stick to bodybuilding.

There is only one exit to this conversation and it's that you have to listen to what your body and mind say.
5 X 5 lovers....keep doing it but don't tell newbs that this is the only way.
split lovers ...do what you like but give 5 X 5 a try twice a year at least to mix things up.

MVP-----> I enjoy reading you posts so much...we think the same 99% of the time....except I love women and you don't (just kidding bro....it's 7 in the morning and I had too much beer yesterday)

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

vdk_au

brihead301


I see.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I'm not sure if I'd be considered at the begginner or intermediate level.  That's why I'm still not sure if I should do Rippetoe's full body (begginer) routine or Bill Starr's full body (intermeddiate) routine.  They say you should start with Ripptoe before moving on to Bill Starr, but I'm not sure if doing 6 months of NROL would equate to replacing starting with the Rippetoe routine.  I'm going to be heavy squatting 3 times a week, so either way my ass is gonna be whopped!

What the? I thought you did Rippetoe's beginner program for ages, before you started to do Texa's method and then NROL now. I'm sure you're an intermediate or above, as I recall you saying you were like deadlifting with 4 x 45lbs on each side of a barbell? :)

This was from a very long time ago Vdk.  Before I ever did SS.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

The way I look at this now, (since this thread is about 2 years old) is that 5-day bodypart splits put way too much emphasis on the upperbody and not even nearly enough on the lower body. 

The majority of the average gym population has the mentalitly "I don't care how my legs look.  I only care how my upper body looks."

So that being said, you then have 2 types of people:

1.) Those who neglect legs altogether, and just do upperbody.  So they have a "chest" day, an "arm" day, a "shoulder" day, a "back" day..... and probably another "arm" day.....

2.) Those who heard that "doing legs helps your upper body get bigger" (which is a really stupid statement, and I'll explain why in a minute).  So they do their 5-day splits, and one of those days is a "Leg" day.  They most likely hate leg day, and they don't put nearly as much effort into thier leg day as they do for their chest or their arm day.  If a day is to be skipped, leg day would be the first to go......Because after all, "legs" are just another muscle group.....right?

I see it all the time with the people at my gym and in my MMA class.  They all have the "one muscle group per day" mentality, and the one out of the 5 days that they do legs, they always bi**h about it.  I guess they fall into group #2 as listed above.  For some reason they all hate leg day.

Now, I think that the whole mantra about "Legs helping you build you upper body" is a s***ty way of thinking.  Yes, the statement is true to an extent....but not in the way that a lot of people think.  The reason that "doing legs" is so effective for total body growth is because not only do the exercises work your legs, which are the biggest muscles in your body, but they also work all the biggest muscles in your upper body just as much.  They are "core" exercises, and "core" in this case does not mean abs, it means the center of your body.....The place where all the power comes from.....The place that has hundreds and hundreds of muscles in it.
 
Also, by "doing legs" I'm not talking about leg curls, leg extensions, and calf raises.....I'm talking heavy squats, heavy deads, and variations of the two.  Squats and deads are "full body" exercises.  This is actually why I kinda get p***ed off when guys at my gym always ask me the question "You really like working your legs, don't you?"  Or jokingly, "Let me guess.  Today is leg day for you, isn't it?"

Now since WE all know that squats and deads are the #1 mass builders, because we are more educated then the average gym rat who know nothing more then simply what they have heard from other uneducated gym rats, it then doesn't make sense to me why anyone would think that doing a 5-day bodypart split would be more beneficial then doing a full-body routine or a squat/dead/bench split or even an upper/lower split....

It makes sense that you train movements, and don't think "muscle groups".  Because when you start thinking muscle groups you get:

- chest
- arms
- shoulders
- back
- legs

If you're only spending one day a week on legs, and 4 days on upper body stuff......well you see what I'm saying???? 4 days on the upper part of your body, but only 1 day on the lower part of your body???? Makes no sense.

Why not do a 5 day split like this:

- quads
- hamstrings
- abductors and adductors
- calves
- Upper body

It looks silly doesn't it????

That's why I don't understand why people think that doing a typical 5-day bodypart split is a good thing.  It is essentially considering the lower body to be not that important, and just another (pain in the a**) muscle group to work.

IMO routines should be built around squats and deadlifts.  When designing a routine one should ask themselves "Am I squatting and deadlifting enough?" Everything else should be secondary to that.  Of course the other lifts are just as important - OH presses, pull-ups, bench press, rows, etc.... But they still are not as good as the full body, ultimate strength and mass building squats and deadlifts.

MVP was on the right track in saying that by putting deadlifts on "back day" then you're at least getting 2-days a week of "Legs".  Now, if you put power cleans on "shoulder day" too then you would then have a decent 5-day split, because then 3/5 of the days would be not totally neglecting the lower body.

Unfortunately to the average gym goer that see squats as strictly a "leg exercise" and deadlifts as "an exercise that looks dangerous for  your back", and power cleans as "ummm...no I don't think so", they would have a split that looks like this:

5-day bodypart split #1

chest day:

flat bench
incline bench
decline bench
flies
cable crossovers

arm day:

barbell curls
preacher curls
hammer curls
dips
tricep extensions
skull crushers

Leg day:

squats
leg presses
hamstring curls
leg extensions
calve raises

back day:

pullups
seated cable rows
lat pull downs
rows
some other back machine

shoulders:

presses
side raises
front raises
bent over raises

First off, no deadlifts at all, and look how little emphasis a split like that gives to squats .  And that is certainly not a rare thing to see at all.  In fact, I see people training like that all the time in my gym (oh, and most of them don't even do squats either).

Now if you make a 5-day split that looks something like:

5-day bodypart split #2

Legs:

Squats
front squats
SLDL's
calve raises

Chest:

flat bench
incline bench
decline bench
dips

Back:

Deadlift
Rows
Pull-ups
Cable rows

Arms:

whatever arm exercises you feel are necessary

Shoulders:

Power Cleans
Overhead presses
Side raises
front raises

This split would be a lot better the the previous split I mentioned.  In fact, since it has 3-days that have a great "full body" exercise in it, It's not even that bad at all (however it's not my thing).   But most uneducated people in gyms won't do that, and they will have a split which looks much closer to what #1 looks like.

So to conclude my rant, "Legs" should not just be considered another muscle group that get worked once a week like "chest" or "arms".  "Legs" should not even be placed in the same category as "arms" or "shoulders".  If you're gonna do a 5-day bodypart split, that's fine.  I can't argue with results, and I know people get results with it.  But please don't give 1/5 of your effort to the most important strength and mass building exercises, and 4/5 effort to all the "beach muscles". 

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Brihead splits doesn't always have to contain isolation movements, it's all depended upon experience and how you need to progress.

Nic, thanks a lot man!

I love splits personally.. I love full body, too. When I plateau with splits, I normally go for about 2-3 more weeks then switch to full body, when I go to full body if I plateau with bench press for example, I bench press twice per week and end up busting my plateau. When I switch to splits, I notice that I usually get a little bit bigger because I'm able to switch up the exercises, add in more variations (not isolation).

if I train with splits and no full body, then I wouldn't be as strong as I am today... if I train with full body and no splits.. I would have to say I wouldn't be as big because I wouldn't be able to focus as much on my lagging parts.

Brihead, as noted above... you can still work your legs 2-3 times per week on a split, just not with direct movements. I'll elaborate....

Legs are worked on back day (deadlifts, rows)
Legs are worked on leg day
Legs are worked on shoulder day (usually, most people do a clean & press)

That's two or three times per week and if you blast the muscle hard enough.. it should be all the work necessary.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Yes, I was just showing that the average guy that hasn't done his/her research, will do a bodypart split like the (bad) one I described above.  Most people don't understand that compound lifts should make up 90% of a routine, and that "leg exercises" should be the staples of the whole training regimine.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

Yep.. I agree... as smoundzou and I agree on earlier, adding in isolations is way down the road for a beginner that trains all natural. It should be when he can only increase the intensity (weight) on his exercises for 1-2 months and needs abide by progressive overload (since he can no longer use progressive resistance) and has to make better to better workouts.

So if he's doing 315 pounds on his bench press for 3 x 8, he'll need something new to grow from, unless he's not planning on growing, he'll need to add a fly in or something that gives his muscle a new reason to grow, working out with the same weight with no increase in - reps, sets, rep speed, rest between sets, technique used, etc.. then he's going to need to add in another exercise to continue to overload the muscle. But then again, that's a pretty long way down the road for your beginner and it's not even really necessary that you express that to them, because their first plateau they'll be doing crossovers, flys, etc.

I've seen and been on some terrible splits in my days, terrble full bodys, terrible cardio routines and diets.. it's really what you make it. You can make a fantastic split with enough frequency, movement variation, volume or intensity (I say "or" because it's difficult to do both at the same time)... you can make a great full body with frequency, volume or intensity, etc. It's really how you design it.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

twistedlink

  most of the time i tried my best in the past to mix corresponding muscle groups

chest/tris
back/bis
shoulders/legs

Twisted even I don't like that split. I like this one..

Chest/Biceps
Back/Triceps
Shoulders/Legs

And if you feel you need more frequency, you could always do this.

Chest/Biceps
Back/Triceps
Legs/Shoulders
Chest/Biceps
Back/Triceps
Legs/Shoulders

The problem is shoulders are worked near chest and tris and legs are a killer after back day from deadlifts.

Exactly, which is why you have to re-arrange the workouts according to how you feel the next day.. if my shoulders ache after a chest session, it makes more sense for me to work the back and triceps 1-2 days later instead of the shoulders, anterior deltoids are an antagonist during the bench press.

7 days for a muscle to recover is also overkill personally.

You never rest seven days between workouts.. shoulders are worked on chest, back and shoulders day.. shoulders are even worked to a certain extent with with power cleans and squats.. not necessarily overloaded, but still worked.

The problem is once i started full body i had the best gains in my entire life, splits got me a 5-10lbs muscle gain in a year, full body got me 45lbs in a year, plus from meager 200's in deadlift to mid 400's.

We've all already agreed that full body allows a beginner to progress in lifts much more than a split would and splits are for those who wish to gain hypertrophy uncaring of strength and/or who can't make progress three times per week on their lifts.

I was always training sore muscles on splits, because the body isnt split, the body complements each and every muscle with another muscle,

You know soreness isn't a valid indicator of anything and you should work through soreness to increase your athletic tolerance.

And that's another reason why muscles work together during compound movements put on a split.. not one isolates their muscles on a split giving it isolation... if they do, they're training wrong for their experience level, unless their goal is hypertrophy and they do not care about gaining optimal strength. If someone just wants to get big, uncaring of how strong they get, progressing each week isn't as important to them as someone whom strength trains and therefore adding in movement variations and etc. would be optimal. And likewise, it's hard to argue with the results from a split seeing so many people on this forum and in the bodybuilding world and/or in real life respond so phenomenally from them. I'm not taking anything away from full body here, I'm one of those guys like Marc and Nic that say - they both work, try them out.

IMO, you'd gain better results using both than just one. Not to mention, as I commented in the previous post, it's really how you design them. If I'm not mistaken, brihead and smoundzou are both on splits.. brihead felt he needed more work to his lower body and therefore designed his split to work the lower body more optimally.. smoundzou felt he needed more frequency so added more days into his split - which backs up my statement, it's how you design it and what your goals are.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

You know, I just realized that I was thinking that this thread was about full-body vs. one-muscle-per-day splits.  I didn't even think about the push/pull/legs, etc....stuff....Duh

Anyway, my post above explains why I don't like that particular type (one muscle per day, bodypart) type of split. 

And Twisted:

"I was always training sore muscles on splits, because the body isnt split, the body complements each and every muscle with another muscle, connected as one, the human body isn't designed to be isolated, it is designed to work as one fluid system all working together, this is why squats and deadlifts work so well, because the entire body has to be used, which requires CNS workings and nearly every muscle in the body to be used, the GH release from this and testosterone increases are amazing compared to any other exercise, and if youre squatting and deadlifting and wait a day or two, youre gonna definitely be sore, and can say goodbye to any exercise given its a full body movement."

This paragraph right here is money!!!

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

I still dont see a valid frequency argument for splits. Your still not squatting 3 times a week. The muscle still only needs a minimum of 36 hours of recovery before training again. Its all about frequency and the amount of stress it takes your individual body to grow.

Beginners is much more simple, they progress linearly and make jumps from workout to workout. As you get more advanced, periodization comes into play and you typically make jumps every week. Later on it takes several weeks to a month(s) for progress, but you dont recover as fast as you did before. Deloading becomes even more important.

Ill leave it at that, I still think full body is more optimal. I mean, splits started becoming popular when steroids started making their way into the Bodybuilding scene. It was a way to push the muscle harder because they could because of the juice. I really dont think thats a coincidence.

But to comment on your example above, the guy benching 315 does not need to add anything to his work out. He can add in an isolation, it is an option but its not the only one. In fact he may see much better results if he changes his tempo, rest time, reps/sets. There are many ways to change the intensity of your workout to induce hypertrophy/strength.

Weight is all relative to the body, Its true once you start getting into the Elite levels things will change and it will take longer to recover and especially longer to make jumps and new PR's.several weeks, to months.

But the fact is very few people reach that level, especially naturally. If it takes him 3x8x315 to induce enough stress its all relative to the body. same as the guy next to him benching 3x8x225. It may take the advanced guy a little longer to progress and reach new PR, and maybe a little longer to recover after progress is made, but it comes with the territory.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

brihead301


You know, I just realized that I was thinking that this thread was about full-body vs. one-muscle-per-day splits.  I didn't even think about the push/pull/legs, etc....stuff....Duh

Anyway, my post above explains why I don't like that particular type (one muscle per day, bodypart) type of split. 

There's many different splits and choosing one is mainly goal/experience oriented.

But excellent point.. let's take a closer look at what you pointed out.

Push (Chest, Shoulders, Triceps)

Pull (Back, Biceps)

Legs (legs)

Lets compare it to a regular split

Chest (Chest< direct muscle targeted... Shoulders < antagonist... Triceps < Synergist).. this in turn becomes chest, shoulders, triceps
Shoulders (Shoulders < direct muscle targeted... chest < antagonist... triceps < synergist)... this in turn becomes chest, shoulders triceps (two days later.. not much different from the full body). We have concluded that those muscle groups are worked 2-3 times per week regardless. We can also say that using the same movement three times per week is only beneficial if you are progressing three times per week, difficult for an advanced person to do... that muscle can be worked three times per week, but doing so through other movements is doing that.

And Twisted:

"I was always training sore muscles on splits, because the body isnt split, the body complements each and every muscle with another muscle, connected as one, the human body isn't designed to be isolated, it is designed to work as one fluid system all working together, this is why squats and deadlifts work so well, because the entire body has to be used, which requires CNS workings and nearly every muscle in the body to be used, the GH release from this and testosterone increases are amazing compared to any other exercise, and if youre squatting and deadlifting and wait a day or two, youre gonna definitely be sore, and can say goodbye to any exercise given its a full body movement."

This paragraph right here is money!!!

Soreness means nothing. Likewise, the body does compliment each other which is why we work with compound exercises that involve so many of those muscles, that statement is geared more towards movements than training routine methods, IMO.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

chest/tri's back/bi's legs/shoulders is a great split IMO. Not a big fan of the splits, but I did that for a couple months and thought it was pretty good. I did monday-wed on Thursday rest friday-sunday on repeat. So each muscle got hit twice a week. Pretty good tbh, just not my thing.

Goals by end of 2009:
Bench 205
Squat 255 ATG
Squat Clean 185

"There is no elevator to success, you must take the stairs."

Nm0ney34


I still dont see a valid frequency argument for splits. Your still not squatting 3 times a week. The muscle still only needs a minimum of 36 hours of recovery before training again. Its all about frequency and the amount of stress it takes your individual body to grow.

Squatting three times per week isn't the only way to get big legs. Have you seen Marc Davids legs? They're huge.. yet he only works them one or two times per week and I've never known him to squat three times per week in that movement.. squatting three times per week is only really useful when you can progress three times per week which we have concluded is difficult for an intermediate to do, so working the legs every 48 hours or so via other movements is suitable and they are still getting worked.. it's more goal oriented, for a powerlifter or strength trainee - yes, squatting three times per week is beneficial. But I would never tell a bodybuilder, all natural or on steroids, he's training wrong. With the steroids being brought up, who says the powerlifter guys that squat three times per week are all natural?

Beginners is much more simple, they progress linearly and make jumps from workout to workout. As you get more advanced, periodization comes into play and you typically make jumps every week. Later on it takes several weeks to a month(s) for progress, but you dont recover as fast as you did before. Deloading becomes even more important.

Not everyone wants to add weight each chance they get - sure it can benefit them. But if their goal is bodybuilding/hypertrophy, it's more for the look than for the amount of force they can generate. Bodybuilders and powerlifters are not only different in terms of diet.. their training is usually completely different. Powerlifting is about trying to do three things - increase the squat, deadlift and bench press. Bodybuilding is about one thing - hitting muscle groups hard with both volume and intensity in seperate workouts in an attempt to get each muscle as large as possible. In bodybuilding, biceps are just as important as legs. A bodybuilder with huge legs and small biceps wouldn't get anywhere.

Ill leave it at that, I still think full body is more optimal. I mean, splits started becoming popular when steroids started making their way into the Bodybuilding scene. It was a way to push the muscle harder because they could because of the juice. I really dont think thats a coincidence.

There are plenty of guys who have gain phenomenal results from splits without the use of steroids. IMO, a person on steroids would benefit better from a full body routine because it would allow them to make more frequent progression. Steroids speed up recovery, so training every seven days wouln't be nearly as helpful as training every 2-3.

But to comment on your example above, the guy benching 315 does not need to add anything to his work out. He can add in an isolation, it is an option but its not the only one. In fact he may see much better results if he changes his tempo, rest time, reps/sets. There are many ways to change the intensity of your workout to induce hypertrophy/strength.

That's what I said - as long as something is increasing each workout.. he's still using progressive overload.

Weight is all relative to the body, Its true once you start getting into the Elite levels things will change and it will take longer to recover and especially longer to make jumps and new PR's.several weeks, to months.

Right.

But the fact is very few people reach that level, especially naturally. If it takes him 3x8x315 to induce enough stress its all relative to the body. same as the guy next to him benching 3x8x225. It may take the advanced guy a little longer to progress and reach new PR, and maybe a little longer to recover after progress is made, but it comes with the territory.

But progressing week to week more benefits those who train for strength.. strength doesn't mean size. I have seen tons of people smaller than me that can rep my maxes.. and with that, I've seen some big guys that are not as strong as me.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant