full body or splits?

ORIGINAL: David1991

i think both of the types of routine have good benefits. i've gotten great results doing splits. but i'll admit ive been getting good results with full body routines during my cut.

I am not saying you can't get good results with split routines. Everything works (to a point). Some things just work better.

ORIGINAL: brihead301

A wonderful article that I've posted before, but I feel that this is the perfect place to post it again:

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/310/

im reading this article now and although it does have some good points, many are totally irrelevant.

the authors entire argument is "Benefits of Whole-Body Routines vs. Split Routines" past the part about the endocrine system is all about why compound movements are better than isolation. thats all. so are u telling me i could just do compound movements with a split routine? his entire argument is just repeating that heavy multi-joint movements are better. than at the end he says "dont train like a bodybuilder" and it would be better to be strong and functional than to be more muscular. well thats not why most of us lift.

"If one were to -- as many bodybuilders do -- train to the point of muscular failure several times in a workout -- and do that several times in a week -- even if you are training different muscle groups, you are still causing considerable systemic fatigue; “wiring up” the nervous system, for example, as well as draining the various energy systems, depleting the endocrine system, etc."  

so ur saying people who do split trainign with go to failure more often than those doing full body routines? if anything it would be worse with full body routines cause u might go to failure with a certain muscle group several times a week

ORIGINAL: David1991

ORIGINAL: brihead301

A wonderful article that I've posted before, but I feel that this is the perfect place to post it again:

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/310/

im reading this article now and although it does have some good points, many are totally irrelevant.

the authors entire argument is "Benefits of Whole-Body Routines vs. Split Routines" past the part about the endocrine system is all about why compound movements are better than isolation. thats all. so are u telling me i could just do compound movements with a split routine? his entire argument is just repeating that heavy multi-joint movements are better. than at the end he says "dont train like a bodybuilder" and it would be better to be strong and functional than to be more muscular. well thats not why most of us lift.

"If one were to -- as many bodybuilders do -- train to the point of muscular failure several times in a workout -- and do that several times in a week -- even if you are training different muscle groups, you are still causing considerable systemic fatigue; “wiring up” the nervous system, for example, as well as draining the various energy systems, depleting the endocrine system, etc."  

so ur saying people who do split trainign with go to failure more often than those doing full body routines? if anything it would be worse with full body routines cause u might go to failure with a certain muscle group several times a week

 
By saying, " don't train like a bodybuilder" I think the point of this statemement was.. A beginner or intermediate lifter will have much better strength and mass gains by doing basic compound exercises 3X's weekly.  Not to get into the entire arguement about frequency in training and how long a muscle needs to recouperate.. but once a person reaches their natural limits, and chooses to chemically enchance their training is when splits, better come into play and one can actually benifit from that type of training.  There is a huge difference in the way a routine works for you and i as to how it works for a pro bodybuilder that is aiding his developement with steroids.  I don't think anyone will argue that point. 
 
Although I have been training a long time, I was out of the gym for 18 months and lost tons of mass.  I dropped from about 220-225lbs down to my lowest of 172lbs.  Currently over the past 6-8 months have gained back up to 200lbs.. In the next year or so I will probably max out at about 220-225lbs with a BF level of around 10-12%.. for me, that's about as good as it gets naturally.. If I want to further develope my body, I would need to take sterioids.. and pound my muscles with a 5 day one muscle routine.   
 
For the average young lifter in this forum, they'll have much faster gains both strength and mass by frequently training thier muscles.. instead of trying to train like a pro bber and only hitting a muscle 1 X weekly.  It's easy for anyone to start thinking these splits are best.. that's all we hear about and it's highly promoted.. but it's simply not the best way to go.. As Coldire said.. no one is saying splits don't work.. they do.. Are they best for me or you..and 99% of the rest of this people here?..  I don't think so..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

well i'm not arguing that full body routines arent good, since hst and the routine im on now ive come around to full body routines and definately believe in their effectiveness. i was just pointing out how his article had a lot of irrelevant points. like i mentioned he said to train for functionality and not to train like a bodybuilder (and he meant the whole split thing but also the fact of just gaining muscle) and also he made it seem like doing full body routines gauranteed doing effective compound movements and that splits were basically all isolation exercises. ive had great results from both types of routines, thats all i can really say cause thats what ive experienced....

I think it's one of those debates that anyone will never have a solid answer too.  Since you and so many others started out doing splits and had success, it's understandably easy to see why you or anyone else might feel that way. It's virtually impossible to prove that you might have had better results doing a fullbody? 
 

ORIGINAL: David1991

well i'm not arguing that full body routines arent good, since hst and the routine im on now ive come around to full body routines and definately believe in their effectiveness. i was just pointing out how his article had a lot of irrelevant points. like i mentioned he said to train for functionality and not to train like a bodybuilder (and he meant the whole split thing but also the fact of just gaining muscle) and also he made it seem like doing full body routines gauranteed doing effective compound movements and that splits were basically all isolation exercises. ive had great results from both types of routines, thats all i can really say cause thats what ive experienced....

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

I think it's one of those debates that anyone will never have a solid answer too.  Since you and so many others started out doing splits and had success, it's understandably easy to see why you or anyone else might feel that way. It's virtually impossible to prove that you might have had better results doing a fullbody? 

ORIGINAL: David1991

well i'm not arguing that full body routines arent good, since hst and the routine im on now ive come around to full body routines and definately believe in their effectiveness. i was just pointing out how his article had a lot of irrelevant points. like i mentioned he said to train for functionality and not to train like a bodybuilder (and he meant the whole split thing but also the fact of just gaining muscle) and also he made it seem like doing full body routines gauranteed doing effective compound movements and that splits were basically all isolation exercises. ive had great results from both types of routines, thats all i can really say cause thats what ive experienced....

yea it is somewhat impossible to tell, unless u used like twins who were new to bodybuilding with the exact same diet. but when i started i started with body-for-life doing an upper/lower split. that sucked but it was because i had no idea what i was doing as far as diet went

wouldnt a pro bb need less time to recover due to all the roids.  and wouldnt a natural guy in the advanced stages need more time to recover.   
 
im just curious as to what everyones thoughts are on what i wrote below.
 
beginner, intermediate >full body 2-3 days recovery- lifting lighter weights, less taxing on the body, quicker recovery
 
advanced intermediate, advanced >split 4-6 days recovery- lifting heavier weights, reaching limits of natural size, slower recovery
 
advanced on roids >full body 2-3 days recovery- also lifting heavy weights, but faster recovery do to roids  

well if they are on roids they can afford to push themselves alot harder/longer than if they werent but theoretically what ur saying makes sense however theres alot of different factors.

ORIGINAL: xmax126

wouldnt a pro bb need less time to recover due to all the roids. and wouldnt a natural guy in the advanced stages need more time to recover.

im just curious as to what everyones thoughts are on what i wrote below.

beginner, intermediate >full body 2-3 days recovery- lifting lighter weights, less taxing on the body, quicker recovery

advanced intermediate, advanced >split 4-6 days recovery- lifting heavier weights, reaching limits of natural size, slower recovery

advanced on roids >full body 2-3 days recovery- also lifting heavy weights, but faster recovery do to roids

The more advanced you are the more stress you need to make some progress. Splitting your routine instead of adding workout days (without a split), or at least some volume, actually makes you regress or stay where you are.

And you don't need to be fully recovered each workout. That's where periodization comes in.

I’m very interested in body building. Is the specified schedule really helps newbies like me. Waiting for your reply, Thanks in advance.

Shamus


I’m very interested in body building. Is the specified schedule really helps newbies like me. Waiting for your reply, Thanks in advance.

I am not sure what your question is... If you have read through this very long and old thread (good job on using the search bar!!! seriously), you will see that there are no right or wrong answers necessarily.

However, new to bodybuilding, a 3 day full body will not steer you wrong.

this is a good thread to get you started.
http://www.discussbodyb...Y-FULL-BODY-m303404.aspx
lots of good routines in there, well suited to a beginner, and even more advanced trainees.

nutrition is just as import as proper training, quite frankly it is more important.
http://www.discussbodyb...ing.com/fb.ashx?m=111173 for mass
http://www.discussbodyb...ing.com/fb.ashx?m=111175 for fat loss

those links will get you well on your way.

old thread....lol its funny to see my old posts and how different they are for the most part compared to how I would answer now

LOL i thought this thread had blown up over night. Unil i checked the date 2007!

Just when I was thinking "maybe splits now.. [after 6 months of fullbody] " , went through this article for the 3rd time before starting and changed my mind again to full-body. 

Anbe Sivam. Period.

Don't let past arguments influence you ironman..

Splits vs. full body is a debate that is just completely unnecessary, what you have to accept is the fact that both work. I agree with full  body routines for beginners and splits for people who want to go into a bodybuilding type approach.

Training squats directly three times per week for a beginner and an advanced lifter is far different.. a beginner will respond phenomenally from squatting three times per week because it's usually not enough weight to load their central nervous system yet allows them to frequently practice the technique and make linear progression on the movement itself... having a guy that is capable of squatting 500 lbs squatting three times per week is going to lead to over training, most likely.. therefore the frequency of his squatting will naturally be cut down.. you'll find this is one of the reasons advanced lifters avoid the frequency in their training.

People tend to clown splits claiming there isn't enough focus on the compound movements and too much on isolation.. that is simply not true, I can draw out a good split right now with 90% compound exercises, still doing what bodybuilders love to do and that's hit each muscle at various angles... and while doing this, I can make it an effective program. Splits doesn't always refer to 10 movements per bodypart, they are what you make them, as with full body.

Pros of a full body is the frequency and intensity.. the cons are the movement variation (not needed for beginners, frequency and intensity are more important making it the suitable approach IMO for beginners) can be argued to not be enough for someone, like an advanced or intermediate lifter, that needs more movement variation.

Pros of a split is the  movement variation and volume.. the cons are the frequency and it sometimes can subtract the intensity, doing three variations of benching and an optional isolation to the chest can be argued to subtract intensity from the compounds..

Both have their place... both work.. and both have their pros and cons, the best way is to use both and see which one you like and/or respond to the best.

but to say "splits don't work"..it's where you leave science out of the equation and let results speak for themselves... because they speak loud and proud on both ends, not just one.

Try a split out and see how it works for you, I promise you'll like it.. if you don't like it as much as full body in a few months, then you can always come back to full body.

There are some of the most knowledgeable people I have ever met in my life on this board guys like - OldNavy, danmirage, Marc David, IBendBarbells, cpl, Lynx, smoundzou... the list can go on and on and not leaving anyone out on purpose but those guys are some of the most intelligent bodybuilding forum posters I've seen in my three year experience on the internet.. most of them will laugh at someone that says splits are ineffective because they have been around too long to believe otherwise...

There are three experts (Dan, Linda, Scott) on the forum that will tell you exactly what I'm telling you... both work and both have their place.

Let the results from splits speak, not the science, results speak much louder.

And on the contrary, the silly approach would be just picking one.. splits won't break up with you and accuse you of cheating on them if you try out a full body for a while and vice versa..

Why just pick one? Why not use both and reap the several benefits that both bring you? If someone uses full body for a few months, then splits for a few months, can you imagine what the frequency, volume, intensity, variation and other factors could do for them in the two hypertrophies? Phenomenal results..

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I see no reason to choose splits over a full body unless your juicing, you just dont need a full weeks worth of rest, or the massive amounts of isolations splits bring to the trainee.

It all comes down to frequency.

I want to make it clear that im not saying you wont see any results or progress on splits, but that full body does it better.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34


I see no reason to choose splits over a full body unless your juicing, you just dont need a full weeks worth of rest, or the massive amounts of isolations splits bring to the average trainee.

It all comes down to frequency for me.

You might not need 7 days rest, but to be fair, you never go seven days without training a muscle group.

As noted, the upper chest will be somewhat utilized again when you do overhead presses.

There a lot of factors in muscle recuperation, the most important of which being protein... A 200 lb man that gets 70g of protein per day and another who gets 200g of protein per day.. the amount of time it takes the body to recuperate would be different.

You train a muscle more directly with splits, therefore the rest time for recuperation would be slightly different.

Mike Menzer, a fan of full body routines, phenomenal bodybuilding physique.

Arnold (can't even begin to spell that), a fan of splits, phenomenal bodybuilding physique.

That explains that both works without scientific detail

For someone that needs more movement variation, a split routine would be great for them.. especially if they're on an advanced level of training where a lot of rest would be necessary... even in powerlifting, a lot of routines require you to squat once per week or sometimes even less frequent than that... just due to the effect it has on your central nervous system.. recovering from a 405 lb squat for 10 reps is much more difficult than recovering from a 185 lb squat for 10 reps

I just dont think they come close to being as effective as a fullbody, especially for the beginner-intermediate trainee. Not saying splits are a waist of time, I just dont think its as effect as full body.

Agreed.. beginners do usually respond better from full body seeing alternating movement variation is unnecessary, a simple bench press works wonders for a beginners chest without the incline and decline alternation... but as they become more advanced and their upper or lower or chest becomes more lagging.. then they essentially need to work those areas.

Some people gain better hypertrophy from a strength set up.. some people only gain strength from a strength set up... you'll find most of hypertrophy gain is in the nutrition and it's less in the routine, but for a person aiming towards bodybuilding, splits have always been the more relied on method. You can add in more frequency to a split if you feel it's necessary.

Then on another term, it's more depended upon what you need individually.. if you need movement variation and volume- go for the split, if you need frequency and intensity- go for the full body.. both have different and similar ways they can benefit you.

For example- a push/pull/legs routine is a split. Watch this...

Day 1- Heavy Push (Chest, Shoulders, Triceps)
Day 3- Light Pull (Back, Biceps)
Day 4- Light Push (Chest, Shoulders, Triceps)
Day 5- Heavy Pull & Legs (Squat, Back, Biceps)

Another example of a split with more frequency...

Day 1- Chest, Biceps
Day 2- Back, Triceps
Day 3- Legs, Shoulders
Day 4- Chest, Biceps
Day 5- Back, Triceps
Day 6- Legs, Shoulders

Both work, therefore it makes more sense to me to use both and reap the benefits from both rather than just using one, after all, they both benefit you more than help..

I'm not taking one side over the other, because I know from first hand experience they're both effective.. if I saw someone saying full body wouldn't work, I (as you can tell from my posts) have been known to take up for full body routines. I just know that both ways work and there's a lot of factors that are brought into an equation to decide which is more superior for an individual.

IMO: Beginners = full body; intermediate = listen to your body; Advanced = (depends on your goals) but splits and full body cycling does wonders.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I just want to add that people seem to think split needs to mean 7 days between the bodypart being trained again - which isn't the case. I will for example train shoulders on a monday, back tuesday, chest wed, legs thur and then start the split from the beginning on the saturday, meaning each bodypart infact has 5 days rest (although each is called into play on others parts days meaning they still effectively get lightly worked on those parts days too) and rather than hitting each part lighter 3 days a week, I'm hitting each part hard and more frequently than once a week. Just because you are doing a split doesn't mean you are restricted to MUST HAVE 7 DAYS REST.  And to be honest, I feel like after hitting each part on their given day hard with 16 sets, those 5 days are wholly justified and definetly needed.

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

Accidently quoted myself

V,
    You're the Clipart Photoshop GOD!

 

you guys do what you like and let others do what they like.
do both, never a bad thing to switch things up.

This topis is closed.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

Sweet it's open!!!! Nic you suck, and everyone else that thinks differently then me is a loser.

Bring it on b****es!!!!!

Just kidding.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

The thread has been re-opened?

Sweet it's open!!!! Nic you suck, and everyone else that thinks differently then me is a loser.

LOL

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

_Virtuoso_


I just want to add that people seem to think split needs to mean 7 days between the bodypart being trained again - which isn't the case. I will for example train shoulders on a monday, back tuesday, chest wed, legs thur and then start the split from the beginning on the saturday, meaning each bodypart infact has 5 days rest (although each is called into play on others parts days meaning they still effectively get lightly worked on those parts days too) and rather than hitting each part lighter 3 days a week, I'm hitting each part hard and more frequently than once a week. Just because you are doing a split doesn't mean you are restricted to MUST HAVE 7 DAYS REST.  And to be honest, I feel like after hitting each part on their given day hard with 16 sets, those 5 days are wholly justified and definetly needed.

Exactly.

Just to make a point, when you perform an exercise in dedication to "back" days.. you are using the dominant force for back stimulus, which is pull.

When you pull from the overhead or front the infront, the posterior deltoids will be antagonists, they receive a workout.

When you work a shoulders day, you usually do 1 movement for each of the deltoids (anterior, lateral, posterior), therefore the posterior deltoids (even being such a small muscle) will be worked with frequency.. 2 days per week.

When you work your "back".. your biceps are synergists, the biceps are worked again on a bicep directly day.

When you bench press, the anterior deltoids are antagonists, the anterior deltoids are hammered with overhead presses on shoulder days.

Legs, we all love to train them! The posterior chain is hammered on squat days (legs), then again on deadlift days (back)..

Starting strength, it's a full body program, I usually even recommend it for beginners with the exception of replacing the power cleans with barbell rows (ask if you want to know why)..

It has you squatting three per week, deadlift and power clean one per week.. that's three times you posterior chain gets hit directly..

Starting strength = 3 times, posterior chain is utilized

Split = 2 times, the posterior chain it utilized.

The lack of frequency, is insignificant, IMO.

Good thread.. thanks for opening again Marc.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Note:  Re-opened because it's valid to discuss this topic even if it goes to 20 pages.. assuming you can all be civil.  When I start seeing personal attacks, etc.. it will be closed.  Until then.. debate away.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

The point is your body doesnt need that amount of rest between workouts, 1 day between workouts is sufficient considering your not repeating the last workout exactly. (save for beginners and squats for example)

I would agree that seeing splits with less rest time is much better then the typical 7 days, but it is still not optimal.

Running a split routine also requires you to typically do an awful lot of isolations which I dont agree with for the average trainee not on juice.

_Virtuoso_


I just want to add that people seem to think split needs to mean 7 days between the bodypart being trained again - which isn't the case. I will for example train shoulders on a monday, back tuesday, chest wed, legs thur and then start the split from the beginning on the saturday, meaning each bodypart infact has 5 days rest (although each is called into play on others parts days meaning they still effectively get lightly worked on those parts days too) and rather than hitting each part lighter 3 days a week, I'm hitting each part hard and more frequently than once a week. Just because you are doing a split doesn't mean you are restricted to MUST HAVE 7 DAYS REST.  And to be honest, I feel like after hitting each part on their given day hard with 16 sets, those 5 days are wholly justified and definetly needed.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

Nm0ney34


Running a split routine also requires you to typically do an awful lot of isolations which I dont agree with for the average trainee not on juice.

This is the part where we agree..

I feel isolations are intended to assist compounds in bringing up lagging parts and should only be used when necessary.

But splits do not require loads of isolation... check this,

Day 1- Chest
Flat Bench
Incline Bench
Dips

Day 2- Back
Deadlift
Row
Pullup

Day 3- Shoulders
OH Press
Side Lateral Raise
Posterior Deltoids

Day 4- Legs
Squat
Power Clean
Leg Press or Lunges

Day 5- Arms
DB Curls
Skull Crushers
Tricep Extensions

The only isolation exercises are arms, they're optional..

Working the lateral deltoids can improve the rotator cuff (I could be mistake, correct me if I am).

There's really nothing about the split that is unnecessary. The frequency of rest time is differential depended upon experience.

Having someone capable of benching 405, squatting 405 and deadlift 500 lbs.. having them squat, bench and deadlift three times per week is a fatigued CNS ready to happen.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I think they both have their place.But for me splits work the best.Full body routines play havoc on my joints.I guess i just need more recovery time than others.

jlp

I think they both have their place.

I could not agree more.

This is actually the optimal answer.. and will probably end up with what we all agree on

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP

Nm0ney34


Running a split routine also requires you to typically do an awful lot of isolations which I dont agree with for the average trainee not on juice.

This is the part where we agree..

I feel isolations are intended to assist compounds in bringing up lagging parts and should only be used when necessary.

But splits do not require loads of isolation... check this,

Day 1- Chest
Flat Bench
Incline Bench
Dips

Day 2- Back
Deadlift
Row
Pullup

Day 3- Shoulders
OH Press
Side Lateral Raise
Posterior Deltoids

Day 4- Legs
Squat
Power Clean
Leg Press or Lunges

Day 5- Arms
DB Curls
Skull Crushers
Tricep Extensions

The only isolation exercises are arms, they're optional..

Working the lateral deltoids can improve the rotator cuff (I could be mistake, correct me if I am).

There's really nothing about the split that is unnecessary. The frequency of rest time is differential depended upon experience.

Having someone capable of benching 405, squatting 405 and deadlift 500 lbs.. having them squat, bench and deadlift three times per week is a fatigued CNS ready to happen.

Is the routine a good split? yes, it's full of good functional compound exercises however, it lacks frequency.. As Nmoney previously said, the body doesn't need a full 5-7 days between workouts.  Now with that said, would a person grow and gain strength on a routine like that.. ?   Yes, if they have an appropriate caloric intake and fully utilize the routine by consistenly adding weight, reps, speed variance, etc.... 
 
Splits such as that were primarily desinged for BBer's who are using anabolic steroids.. The steroids give them the ability to push their bodies harder than a normal trainee, allow them to intake more food by increasing their appitite and allow their bodies to heal fro mthe massive amount of punishiment they are able to inflict on it... etc.....
 
Again, it's a good split, if everything is in line with diet who ever is doing it will increase strength and size.. but is it an optimal way for a natural trainee to train?  Probably not...
 
Another issue i have with various types of split is, they allow too much opportunity for people to do waaaay to many isolations... IMO isolations for a person who has only been training a short period of time is nothing more than an invitation for injury... Isolations cause imbalances in muscle groups, often cause tendon and ligiment injuries and should just be avoided for at least the first year or until the trainee has a good understadning of his body and how it works and how it repsonds...
 
I can think of maybe 2 or 3 isolation exercises that are acceptable to do for beginners... Other than that.. they're best bet would be to do an upper / lower or fullbody workout..
 
If you're primary goal is to be a pro BBer and you plan on injecting then M-F chest/back/shoulders/legs/arms will probably serve you better once you start gearing up..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

While you guys are discussing this, I just took in smoundzou's 3 day splits with a few isolations. I squatted 294 today. Planning to incorporate the texas method in this so that I get to have a light day for better recovery.

@ Marc, thanks for that Interview clip with Hugo, I really enjoyed it. Sorry I cant afford to buy any of the books. I'm gonna start university soon and hence I'm saving up a bit and taking more loans.

Anbe Sivam. Period.