full body or splits?

ORIGINAL: coldfire

P.S .
Read the book before you start.

 
Definately.  I ordered it 3 days ago, and I can't friggin wait until it comes.  Hopefully it will show up today.  I heard nothing but good things about it. 
 
You said you recommend practical programming too?

Obviously the program build around basic compound exercises.. True, if a person is at an intermediate level and training on Starr's 5X5 for any period of time.. I agree with you and they may not get the desired results..
 
But if coming off a basic push pull, 5 day split or just about any other type of routine..  I could easily see anyone at an intermediate level seeing gains on this program, if, and only if they correctly follow the program and take the time to actually calculate out the lifts in advance, while keeping a good progressive overload on the lifts..  
 
I'm fairly sure Brithead is coming off a NROL routine but I'm not sure which one?  I guess this would determine how well Rippetoes program would work for him..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

Obviously the program build around basic compound exercises.. True, if a person is at an intermediate level and training on Starr's 5X5 for any period of time.. I agree with you and they may not get the desired results..

But if coming off a basic push pull, 5 day split or just about any other type of routine..  I could easily see anyone at an intermediate level seeing gains on this program, if, and only if they correctly follow the program and take the time to actually calculate out the lifts in advance, while keeping a good progressive overload on the lifts..  

I'm fairly sure Brithead is coming off a NROL routine but I'm not sure which one?  I guess this would determine how well Rippetoes program would work for him..

 
I did hypertrophy 1, hypertrophy 2, and I'm just about done strength 1.  It's a good start, but I think either Ripptoe or Bill Starr will both give me significant gains.

ORIGINAL: brihead301

ORIGINAL: coldfire

P.S .
Read the book before you start.

Definately. I ordered it 3 days ago, and I can't friggin wait until it comes. Hopefully it will show up today. I heard nothing but good things about it.

You said you recommend practical programming too?

Yes, practical programming is a good book. It has most of the things you need to know about training.

It starts with physiological background. Training and overtraining and goals. Recovery, food, vitamins, etc.

Then it has a section about training of the novice, which moves on to intermediate and then advanced with different method of periodization.

The novice part is some explanation about the program in starting strength. Progression, microloading and other stuff.

The intermediate section contains some models like the Texas Method model and Bill Starr's model, and how to progress from each. It has some info about speed training too.

Note, this section won't have programs for example, since it is left for the reader to experience with the general templates.

The advanced section is about many methods of periodization and dual factor training. Most people won't even need this.

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

Obviously the program build around basic compound exercises.. True, if a person is at an intermediate level and training on Starr's 5X5 for any period of time.. I agree with you and they may not get the desired results..

But if coming off a basic push pull, 5 day split or just about any other type of routine.. I could easily see anyone at an intermediate level seeing gains on this program, if, and only if they correctly follow the program and take the time to actually calculate out the lifts in advance, while keeping a good progressive overload on the lifts..

I'm fairly sure Brithead is coming off a NROL routine but I'm not sure which one? I guess this would determine how well Rippetoes program would work for him..

That's why I suggested to give Rippetoe's program a try first. Though, if he really is an intermediate he won't be able to make progress from workout to workout.

I wonder if the TS had any idea how big this thread was gonna become lol

Stack: ON 100% Whey, GNC Mega Men Sport Multi, Vit C, Vit B-12 (for energy), Fish Oil

Specs:
Age - 20
Height - 6'3"
Weight - 194 lb
BF - 16.9% (and dropping)

ORIGINAL: jtgriffi

I wonder if the TS had any idea how big this thread was gonna become lol

 
that's funny, this is a prime example as to why the search function on this site or any other for that matters is virutally useless.. almost all topics branch off into seperate topics.. That's the great thing about a forum..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

smondzou (or any1 else that knows) i think i read u said the muscle can be trained again after 36 hours (of course im sure theres variables involved). i just switched up my full body routine and did it tuesday morning, now i gotta workout again tonight cause i wont be here tomorow morning which is almost exactly 36 hours apart. so u think that would be fine? i mean im not really worried, ive done a fair amount of reading about this but it just feels wierd working out my legs again since they're sore whenever i walk and i just worked them 36 hours ago. 

ORIGINAL: David1991

smondzou (or any1 else that knows) i think i read u said the muscle can be trained again after 36 hours (of course im sure theres variables involved). i just switched up my full body routine and did it tuesday morning, now i gotta workout again tonight cause i wont be here tomorow morning which is almost exactly 36 hours apart. so u think that would be fine? i mean im not really worried, ive done a fair amount of reading about this but it just feels wierd working out my legs again since they're sore whenever i walk and i just worked them 36 hours ago. 

 
I think you'll be fine.... the primary reason it's not advocated as much is due to the inconvenience and scheduleing.. Working out in the morning.. and then working out the next afternoon.. etc...

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

ORIGINAL: David1991

smondzou (or any1 else that knows) i think i read u said the muscle can be trained again after 36 hours (of course im sure theres variables involved). i just switched up my full body routine and did it tuesday morning, now i gotta workout again tonight cause i wont be here tomorow morning which is almost exactly 36 hours apart. so u think that would be fine? i mean im not really worried, ive done a fair amount of reading about this but it just feels wierd working out my legs again since they're sore whenever i walk and i just worked them 36 hours ago. 

I think you'll be fine.... the primary reason it's not advocated as much is due to the inconvenience and scheduleing.. Working out in the morning.. and then working out the next afternoon.. etc...

yea im not too worried i mean its only one time, my legs are just mad sore lol

ORIGINAL: David1991

smondzou (or any1 else that knows) i think i read u said the muscle can be trained again after 36 hours (of course im sure theres variables involved). i just switched up my full body routine and did it tuesday morning, now i gotta workout again tonight cause i wont be here tomorow morning which is almost exactly 36 hours apart. so u think that would be fine? i mean im not really worried, ive done a fair amount of reading about this but it just feels wierd working out my legs again since they're sore whenever i walk and i just worked them 36 hours ago. 

 
That's how I'm gonna feel once I start my full body routine where I will be squatting 3 days a week!  Talk about some scary stuff.

nah its not too bad at all man, much easier than a normal hypertrophy based leg routine. bill starrs routine was fun, the first 4 of the 5 sets are basically warm up and acclamation sets. 

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: MuscleMachine14

a 3 day full body routine is working the same exact things EVERYDAY, a 4-5 day training split is working one or two bodyparts ONE DAY and not working it again for 3-4 DAYS and resting in the mean time. had he said a 3 day training split, i would have suggested that, as long as he is working a different bodypart every workout.

he states he is interested in bulking, nobody does a full body routine to bulk. a full body routine will build a minimal amount of muscle on ones body, so why would you suggest he does it? This is what i meant when i commented on who usually does full-body routines, although i did not think it was that hard to comprehend.

most people gain weight the easiest, when training properly, when they begin. So, a basic four or five day split with a moderate number of sets and exercises that includes all of the essential compound lifts will bring great gains. Yes, you aren't working the muscle as hard in a full body routine, but if you make your best, or even quickest, gains when you BEGIN, why would you want to work the muscle with less intensity.

as for my last statement in the previous post, I was basically trying to state my credentials. I have been bodybuilding for three years, and for these three years (beginning in highschool and now in college) when i am not doing schoolwork, at class, or at the gym, i am reading about bodybuilding. I rarely go out during the week when all of my friends do, drink very little, and stay on a consistent diet, despite being in college. I plan on competing in the summer also, and have been told that i will do very well.

I also made workout splits for 3 people (all with different body types) i've met in college 3 weeks ago and trained them, and they have all made noticeable strength and mass increases in this time period, all on a 3-day SPLIT.

Do you even know how much it takes to fully recover from one weight training effort? You are never fully recovered before the next workout (unless you wait for WEEKS between workouts). The point is the body does not need to be fully recovered after each training effort.

This model of train, then wait for super-compensation, then train again is dead. No one in the world accepts it. ALL the atheletes train very frequently, without waiting for recovery.

Do you want to call the olympic weightlifters, or powerlifters and tell them they are overtraining?
Or maybe someone should have told Bill Starr he overtrained all his athletes?

Before you tell me they are not bodybuilders, most of them are bigger and more muscular than you. And bodybuilders trained this way until Dianabol became popular. See any connection?

Your credentials of 3 years of bodybuilding mean nothing, just like my 8 years mean nothing.

 
ok well the consensus seems to be that a full body split is fine, but the other day when i worked out my biceps i couldnt even lift a gallon of milk or extend them fully for a week. im guessing i just did a little bit to much for my arms to handle right now. also what is dianabol?... steroids? and how does this effect the way body builders train? i am in no means interested in steriods, just a little curious. never hurts to learn.

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

ORIGINAL: jtgriffi

I wonder if the TS had any idea how big this thread was gonna become lol

that's funny, this is a prime example as to why the search function on this site or any other for that matters is virutally useless.. almost all topics branch off into seperate topics.. That's the great thing about a forum..

 
yea well im pretty blown away right now. i didnt think anything i could have said would be this controversial and such a topic of discussion. i mean for a noob to start a thread this large is a big deal... in my opinion anyway. im proud of myself
 
thanks for all your help guys... smoundzuo, coldfire, brihead... etc. i feel im a little in over my head here. there are so many more aspects to lifting that i never imagined. it seems like you are all speaking another language. but ill go ahead and take it one step at a time and see what happens.

ORIGINAL: perfect_pickle

 i feel im a little in over my head here. there are so many more aspects to lifting that i never imagined. it seems like you are all speaking another language. but ill go ahead and take it one step at a time and see what happens.

 
It's not complicated at all.  You just have to lift heavy weights, eat lots of food, and stick to it.  It's really very very simple!!!! 
 
 

COULD A MODERATOR STAR THIS THREAD, PLEASE??
 
It is full of excelent information, well explained theories, and it did not get nasty! Great starter information for the newbies!
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: brihead301

ORIGINAL: perfect_pickle

i feel im a little in over my head here. there are so many more aspects to lifting that i never imagined. it seems like you are all speaking another language. but ill go ahead and take it one step at a time and see what happens.

It's not complicated at all.  You just have to lift heavy weights, eat lots of food, and stick to it.  It's really very very simple!!!! 

It's funny you mention that.... 

I've known guys that were all natural and big as a house, and stronger than a horse but didn't know the difference between a simple or a complex carb... They think a macronutrient is some type of pasta and couldn't even come close to telling you how many cals they consume on an average day and hardly ever take sups...
They erratically workout with no method to the madness and yet these guys are big, strong and fit...
 
And then I've seen guys that analyze everything they eat, alwasy taking the best sups and meticulously count carbs fats and proteins.. They time and plan their routines to the tee and work each muscle in a scientific method but seem to always lag having progress...
 
Is it possible we sometimes make things more complicated than they really are?  Could Brithead be correct when he says, " Lift heavy weights and eat lots of food?" 
 
IMO.. that would be the perfect statement with the following added....
 
Lift heavy weights, eat lots of food and listen to what your body tells you..  

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

Good addition Smoundzou. 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

ORIGINAL: brihead301

ORIGINAL: perfect_pickle

i feel im a little in over my head here. there are so many more aspects to lifting that i never imagined. it seems like you are all speaking another language. but ill go ahead and take it one step at a time and see what happens.

It's not complicated at all.  You just have to lift heavy weights, eat lots of food, and stick to it.  It's really very very simple!!!! 

It's funny you mention that.... 

I've known guys that were all natural and big as a house, and stronger than a horse but didn't know the difference between a simple or a complex carb... They think a macronutrient is some type of pasta and couldn't even come close to telling you how many cals they consume on an average day and hardly ever take sups...
They erratically workout with no method to the madness and yet these guys are big, strong and fit...
 
And then I've seen guys that analyze everything they eat, alwasy taking the best sups and meticulously count carbs fats and proteins.. They time and plan their routines to the tee and work each muscle in a scientific method but seem to always lag having progress...
 
Is it possible we sometimes make things more complicated than they really are?  Could Brithead be correct when he says, " Lift heavy weights and eat lots of food?" 
 
IMO.. that would be the perfect statement with the following added....
 
Lift heavy weights, eat lots of food and listen to what your body tells you..  

yah I know guys like that who have no real strutcture yet are huge.... watever

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing." Friedrich Nietzsche

"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted" John Lennon

I don't mean have no structure.  It's definately important to have a set routine, but once you have a routine, just follow it and eat right and the gains will come. 

A wonderful article that I've posted before, but I feel that this is the perfect place to post it again:
 
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/310/

Great article.. I've read it before.. it may have been from the last time you posted it..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

Full Body vs. Split Training
Is One Really Better Than the Other?

A nice list of things to think about in regards to full body vs. split training.  And as usual, in the T-Nation style.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

That really shed a lot of light on somthing I was pretty comfused about thanks form the article marc 

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing." Friedrich Nietzsche

"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted" John Lennon

the reason i dont like a full body split is because sometimes ill skip a day.  things come up and ill have to put my workout aside.  or maybe i just dont feel like going.  i would rather go when im into it fully.  and with a split routine in can make up a missed workout pretty easily.
 
my current split
monday legs
tuesday chest
wednesday back
thursday shoulders
friday tris/bis
 
A
if i skip chest on tuesday i could just to it on wednesday and move everything a day later.  and then the next week just return to normal. 
B or if i skip chest on tuesday i could just do chest and back together on wednesday.  or do an a.m. chest and p.m. back. 
 
sometimes ill skip 2 workouts during a week. but ill always make up for it during that week so that the next week im back to normal.
 
with a full body split i could never double up workouts. and i could never skip 2 workouts and make up for it. 
 

yea that is kind of annoying. like right now i have to workout tuesday,thurday,saturday cause its full body. with a split i could change it around sometimes

Very good article Marc.  I've actually been looking for some good articles comparing the two, but I've been unable to find any until this one.
 
I've been training with splits for years and years.  Finally when I gave NROL a shot, which is primarily an upper/lower split (something I've never tried), I experienced growth like I've never seen before.  Now, the more I read about the subject, the majority of things are saying that the most overall strength and growth can be obtained by using full-body routines (something that I have not yet tried, but I will be starting next week, since I'm done exactly 1/2 of the NROL program).  A lot of what I've been reading also says that if you're going to do a split of some sort, make it an upper/lower.  Hell, it's been working wonders for me.
 
Although I haven't tried any full body routines consisting of just 3 or 4 big lifts, it makes the most logical sense to me that they would be the most efficient.  That's just my opinion though.  I'll see what happens.
 
This is one of the most interesting topics in the sport of weightlifting, IMO.

When I first started training.. a full body was the only routine I knew.. then I noticed that most of the big guys in the gym were doing upper/lower splits.. Then for some reason or another.. the fad of doing 5day splits came around.. all the pro's were doing them, all the big guys in the gyms started doing them and it just seemed like the thing to do... Until about 12 weeks ago, I had not done a fullbody routine in at least 15-20 years...For some reason I assoicated a fullbody as being a beginner workout.. I guess because that's the type of routine I started off doing..  I was pretty much stuck in the mind set of 5 day, one muscle per day routine.... For me, I think fullbody routines are the way to go..you're body gets plenty of rest.. the workout is only about an hour at most.. and instead of attacking a muscle with 12-14 sets in one day.. it's spread out over 3 days..... If you miss a day... so what.. make it up.. it's not the end of the world.. Regardless of what anyone say.. it won't kill you or wreck your training if you perform a 2 workout within 36 hours... I promise..
 
Edit: Read the article and it has some interesting info.. I don't agree with everything said but it does point out some advantages to both training methods.. It did seem the author was struggling to find benefits to do a split over a fullbody.. the #3 was pretty lame.. Less likely to overtrain.. maybe if you're just running into the gym and doing a random non-planned routine.. but that could just as easily happen spending an 1 1/2 hours in the gym 5 days per week killing on muscle.. anyway good info
 
 

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: Marc David

Full Body vs. Split Training
Is One Really Better Than the Other?

A nice list of things to think about in regards to full body vs. split training. And as usual, in the T-Nation style.

This article has zero real points for split training.

- Less general fatigue? Even if it is an issue, it is the result of much greater stress which he says is better for growth in the beginning. Besides, your body adapts to this fatigue and the workload capcity increases with time.

- Greater attention per muscle group? What does that mean? It means you can destroy your muscle in one workout instead of stimulating it 3-4 times a week which he admits to be better in the benefits of full body workouts.

- Less apt to overtrain? That is so stupid I won't even bother commenting about it.

i think both of the types of routine have good benefits. i've gotten great results doing splits. but i'll admit ive been getting  good results with full body routines during my cut.