epistane

I didnt realize so many here were taking PHs...

Not that Im real against it, but I think a real good base should be built first...

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

how do you know wether or not they have or have not built a good base first before using such products :P

Thanks for the link on that sale. For 30 bucks im almost willing to try it but im still a little confused, lots of people say it gets rid of their gyno etc, some one mentioned it was the best pct they ever taken. I was thinking this was a PH? is this a PH or is it a PCT or is it a PH with PCT? maybe im just not reading things right... i see people say they lose their gyno and still gain like 6-8 lbs of muscle with one bottle.

I've never tried a steroid or prohormone, probably never will. I'm willing to bet when I reach my genetic limit I'll be satisfied with the results, but I'm not anti-steroid. I believe they can be a great tool when used properly.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

I've never taken anything hormonal either.  I've had a few friends on legit gear and others doing epi/havoc so I know quite a bit about everything.  I feel like if I ever did take anything I would definitely know what I was doing and that would help.  I just don't think I would ever take an oral PH if I did do them.

Doesn't injectable steroids eliminate the need for a cycle assist? Liver protector?

The way I've heard, with injections you have to insert in the right muscle or whatever each time, generally requiring more anatomy knowledge or whatever. Unsure if it's true or though.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

It wouldn't necessarily eliminate cycle assist.  For the liver...yes... but the rest is still important such as things to keep blood pressure in check, joint supps, etc.

I have the 9th edition anabolics book. Almost every steroid, injectable or oral, he recommends support supplements.

I knew at the gym and all around there were tons of people into steroids and PH's...

I knew a few on here were because I have asked about them...

But man its surprising how many people on here is pro or actually doing them.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

I'm pro about it to an extent.

Do I think a 5'9" guy at 135 pounds with a month or two of training under his belt should do it? No.

Do I think a 5'9" guy who is almost 200 pounds and been lifting for 3 years and starting to plateau use them? Yes.

Perrynaytor


I'm pro about it to an extent.

Do I think a 5'9" guy at 135 pounds with a month or two of training under his belt should do it? No.

Do I think a 5'9" guy who is almost 200 pounds and been lifting for 3 years and starting to plateau use them? Yes.

Exactly. Perfect example Perry.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

Yeah theres a big difference between each of those scenario's. IMO I think the guy training for 3 years could still wait longer, I dont think anyone is going to plateau at 3 years, theres to many ways to change things up and variables involved. I think 5-7 years would be the ultimate optimal range for people to get every single once they can out of them naturally. People tend to forget the longer they have been training, the longer its going to take them to progress. (periodization)

Thats not without saying Im against them either, it just surprises me on this site a little is all. Its one of those things where it seems more and more rare to find someone who is as serious about training as I am who is natural or is still natural.

I have certainly been tempted, and thought about it...and its hard to resist when you see everyone else getting a leg up on you. Its not cheating, its just "help" your still putting in the same amount of work if not more because of what your taking.

Its just especially hard for me because I get real hard on myself about "failure" and all that crap...when I see someone who is obviously taking something or has etc...whether its muscle size/definition or strength I have to just remind myself that im doing it without the "help" right now, and I shouldnt get so down on myself about things like that...

anyway...lol. I do find it funny that some people are saying so many bad things about Keto, but yet are or are going to run PH's/steroids. Its like your so quick to point out all the things wrong with the diet...but so many things can go wrong while gearing up too. IMO its much more dangerous, knowing what your doing when it comes to that stuff obviously helps...but its not a 100% guarantee things are going to go smoothly on the cycle.

Perrynaytor


I'm pro about it to an extent.

Do I think a 5'9" guy at 135 pounds with a month or two of training under his belt should do it? No.

Do I think a 5'9" guy who is almost 200 pounds and been lifting for 3 years and starting to plateau use them? Yes.

6'3"  @213

Squat 1x20x275

press:200, Deadlift:475, Bench:300, P.clean:235, Squat:385

"The only failure that is final is to stop trying to improve"

well let me air some dirty laundry. I have ran keto off and on for months. I know in my mind it isn't healthy but it works awesomely. I don't run it long term, but I'm not taking sides in a keto debate anymore.

as far as steroids/PHs go, I am sold on using them. I might even be slightly addicted. there really is nothing like the feeling off the "on" switch and going to the gym and setting PRs you couldn't imagine.

I have ran 3 bottles of tren in my life
1 havoc, 2 epistane
2 3-AD

and thats it so far. I am only 18, so I have made stupid decisions.

I'm not pro-steroid, nor am I anti-steroid.

I'm not pro-keto, I'm not anti-keto.

To me, there's nothing wrong with the keto diet. I am on it now and love the results. Could my insides be taking a beating whilst I enjoy my body-fat dropping like Britney Spears pants at a high school prom? Maybe so. Will I  be aware if this issue becomes significant? Yes.

Steroids, do I think a guy that's been training for a year should take them? No. I think you should bench your body-weight 20 reps, squat 1.5 your body-weight 20 reps, deadlift nearly 3 times your body-weight, etc. I furthermore believe that they are for not planning on to compete. Not just your average Joe too lazy to work for results.

As mentioned, I've had a credit card out starring at an Epistane bottle before. I didn't buy it, I decided I'd rather lose without steroids than win with them. At least the point in my training right now, will I change my mind one day? I doubt it. I still believe I'm just trying to get somewhat big. I'm 5'9", so 17" arms at under 10% body-fat and an over 300lb bench press will have me looking good with my shirt off, that's all I'm looking for. Not to look like Arnold. But those are my goals, I'm not going to judge anyone elses goals off mine.

Very few people have reached their genetic limit on this forum, yet I believe more than that are capable of taking steroids. Veg has been training for a long time, he's well-aware of steroid risks and obviously knows what he's talking about. So his judgment is to take steroids, but it's not a big deal. He's already built a good physique, whilst doing that without the benefits of animal meats I admire even more.

There's quite a few people on the board that I believe are in the range of steroid consideration. There's nothing wrong with it though. The only way I'd consider you a hypocrite is if:

1) You take them before knowing what you're talking about.

2) You take them during an all-natural competition.

Beginners fall under category 1. Only a handful of them actually know what steroids do.

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

i just find it mind blowing such a tiny little pill can allow you to lift so much more weight, and once you feel that its hard to ever go back to not using them to be honest

YOU GOTTA EAT BIG, TO BE BIG!!

NASM certified trainer
NFPT certified trainer

Winter Bulk goal:245-250 by dec 31
Current weight: 235

The only problem I've experienced with the lovely stuff is that once you start taking it when you are on the off periods it's very hard to go to the gym just being on the protein if you know what I mean.

''If one is after quick results one never learns an art.''

Erich Fromm

I am seriously about to buy a bottle. I miss it so much.

Bottle of vodka lol

''If one is after quick results one never learns an art.''

Erich Fromm

I'm not doubting any of you blokes who say you break PR's left and right on the stuff, but the skeptic in me is just screaming for a double blind placebo trial.  Having never used Epi (the bottle is still on top of my fridge, sealed, waiting for me to get some proper PCT), I'm in a perfect position to volunteer myself for such an experiment, but I have no way to administer it myself.

My home away from DBB

veggeep


I'm not doubting any of you blokes who say you break PR's left and right on the stuff, but the skeptic in me is just screaming for a double blind placebo trial.  Having never used Epi (the bottle is still on top of my fridge, sealed, waiting for me to get some proper PCT), I'm in a perfect position to volunteer myself for such an experiment, but I have no way to administer it myself.

How bout I send you a bottle filled with either havoc or some of the finest sugar you can find and then you can let us know?  I guess that wouldn't be a double blind though.

Perrynaytor


well let me air some dirty laundry. I have ran keto off and on for months. I know in my mind it isn't healthy but it works awesomely. I don't run it long term, but I'm not taking sides in a keto debate anymore.

as far as steroids/PHs go, I am sold on using them. I might even be slightly addicted. there really is nothing like the feeling off the "on" switch and going to the gym and setting PRs you couldn't imagine.

I have ran 3 bottles of tren in my life
1 havoc, 2 epistane
2 3-AD

and thats it so far. I am only 18, so I have made stupid decisions.

jesus christ.

working on explosive phase
vertical: 35
weight: 206

Big 3: 300/440/515

Strength and growth come only through continuous effort and struggle.

Does this stuff do anything to your ability to have healthy kids?

Anything that throws your own natural production of testosterone out of whack will do that, J, if you abuse it.

My home away from DBB

veggeep


I'm not doubting any of you blokes who say you break PR's left and right on the stuff, but the skeptic in me is just screaming for a double blind placebo trial.  Having never used Epi (the bottle is still on top of my fridge, sealed, waiting for me to get some proper PCT), I'm in a perfect position to volunteer myself for such an experiment, but I have no way to administer it myself.

Veg....I've never done epi....BUT,my 1st cycle of HDROL (competitive edge labs) I got Crazy,Crazy,strength gains!!!!
I mean some lifts were going up 20-30 pounds a week.
I'm going to run another HDROL cycle as soon as I get Back from Dallas,the week of the 21st.
I'm really going to be strict with Diet,routine and rest this time.
 
But I'm telling ya....some of these PH's have incredible strength gains.

Current Stack: HDROL,Celltech,Superpump 250, Glutamine,Beta alanine,Whey protein.

Are you going to a Cowboys game bulking???

ACE-CPT, NASM-CPT, AFPA-Nutrition Consultant 

MVP


Are you going to a Cowboys game bulking???

Yeah....The home opener against the Giants...Can't Wait!!!

Current Stack: HDROL,Celltech,Superpump 250, Glutamine,Beta alanine,Whey protein.

it can def effect your sperm btw...But alot of problems can be solved simply with proper PCT and going and getting blood work done every 3-6 months incase something does go wrong it is quickly recognized. and can be taken care of

I had my bloodwork done before i started epi as i always do and all my levels were perfect, my dr even asked me "did it work"? hahaha i was like **** ya dude as he proceded to ask me to pull down my pants rofl.

YOU GOTTA EAT BIG, TO BE BIG!!

NASM certified trainer
NFPT certified trainer

Winter Bulk goal:245-250 by dec 31
Current weight: 235