ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc

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thehardway

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ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Monday, August 18, 2008 2:18 PM ( #1 )
I would just post this in supplements, however, honestly your the one who knows what they are talking about.

I read the rules to you forum, and this is supposed to be about research papers, and journal articles, and this has nothing to do with that.

I'm gonna ask and you can choose to answer or not, no hard feelings, your a busy guy.

Ok, for the past several years, I have been exhausted, flat out, just all done.  I could and have slept the whole weekend through and woken up Monday morning, so tired I would almost cry. My concentration was lacking,  I had no desire to do anything, really. I would make plans with friends I hadn't seen in awhile (and ones I like and everything), and would cancel last minute, because I just didn't have the energy, or if I did go I wouldn't be particularly engaged or enjoy myself, just wanted to get home to go to bed. My joints ached, I was sore form working out all the time (I don't lift or train all that hard, and have been regular at working out 6 days a week for just about 3 years now). Depressed and moody, as well, but that was always a part of who I am.

Now I caulked it up to several things, I am displeased at work, I let my real work slide away (fine artist, working a stupid and more stressful than it was supposed to be day job), sometimes crazy hours, I smoke and smoke pot (I know that inhibits REM sleep), however I certainly go for extended periods with out the later, and my sleep never got any better.  Oh and I never dreamed, save a work stress dream maybe once every month or two.

Now during this period I had a cancer scare (like a year ago, I think), and I had a litney of tests done, they all came back, I am in great shape (minus the smoking), I mean just green lights on everything. Lyme's disease no,  (and that one was looming in the back of my head as well), all sorts of chronic, deadly and frightening diseases tested for... zip. I eat well, whole food, lean proteins, good fats, carbs in their  unrefined splendor,  I barley even drink.

So, anyway a couple weeks ago, after hearing how ZMA (yeah can you believe it is boiling down to this stupid question, sorry) can help people sleep just a little better (for a while I had been hearing that, understanding the incredible anabolic properties touted by the makers are basically lies, like most products), I thought to myself, yo know what, I'll give it a shot, what it's zinc Magnesium and some b-6 if it's nonsense, 1 I'll know soon enough and 2 I'll just pee out the excess, and there goes $30, worth a shot.

Weird since I only take a multi, glucosomine and chondrodin and some BCAA's and I am not even super regular with those.

Well let me tell you, it's like I found a magic pill, I really did. I dream every night, I wake up refreshed, I don't mind going to work. I have spent time with friends I have neglected. The bags under my eyes, which have been there for years, and have just gotten worse (I figured I am just aging really badly), are GONE, my joints don't hurt, I am not sore. Blackheads that I have had on my nose for 6 years are going away. I'm not depressed, my job is still crap, but I have been leaps and bounds more effective in the last few weeks. Dumb stuff easy dumb stuff  that I know I would have put off before , I just get done now.

SO, my question is  does that sound right to you. I looked up Zinc and magnesium deficiencies, and noticed that I do have a lot of the symptoms of both magnesium and zinc deficiencies, even down to the white spots on my nail, many of the things I listed previously.

if that is correct and this stupid little supplement is helping me how do I find the proper dosage although what I have been doing seems okey dokey by me. I am afraid to stop taking it at this point, I don't want to go a couple days with out to get a blood test done, I am assuming that is how I would find out if I truly was deficient.

Besides limiting copper absorbtion (if the zinc is taken in to high a quantity), is there anything else I should be worried about. And to not take it with calcium containing foods.

Everybody has noticed the difference, and I am not generally suggestible, I would find it highly improbably that I am dreaming because of a placebo factor. Especially since the first night I took it, I said" I CAN'T BELIEVE I SPENT GOOD MONEY ON THIS CRAP!!!". I felt better immediately upon waking up the next day.


So, what do yo think about that, I know it's long, but i figured I would give you all the info, about me and my ZMA experiance, so far.


<message edited by danmirage on Monday, August 18, 2008 3:15 PM>
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danmirage

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Re:Dan, I have a question, may I bother you a sec? - Monday, August 18, 2008 3:13 PM ( #2 )
- [This post was marked as helpful]
First, if you are getting the desired results...don't knock it.  At the same time, it would be nice to know exactly what was happening to target it specifically.

You might have had a deficiency in Zinc or Magnesium, magnesium seeming slightly more likely.

With those symptoms, and knowing what I know about your diet, etc...I would have considered a B-complex.  Perhaps 50 mg 3x a day.

There are health practitioners who do tests for deficiencies and this includes enzymes, neurotransmitters, etc.  these are done by practitioners who work with Metametrix labs.

Nutrition testing can cover these things:
Vitamin A, β-carotene
Vitamin E
Vitamin B Complex
Vitamin B1
Vitamin B2
Vitamin B3
Vitamin B5
Vitamin B6
Vitamin B12
Folate
Biotin
CoQ10
Alpha Lipoic Acid
Chromium
Cobalt
Copper
Iron
Magnesium
Manganese
Molybdenum
Potassium
Selenium
Vanadium
Zinc
Arginine
Asparagine
Aspartic Acid
Cysteine
Carnitine
GABA
Glutamate
Glutamine
Glycine
Histidine
Isoleucine
Leucine
Lysine
Methionine
Phenylalanine
Serine
Taurine
Threonine
Tryptophan
Tyrosine
Valine
ALA
EPA
DHA
LA
GLA
DGLA
Oleic

Condition Testing can cover these things:
Blood Formation
Anemia
Cardiovascular
Angina
Arrhythmia
Atherosclerosis
Cerebrovasc Insuff.
Hyperlipidemia
Hypertension
Thrombotic Disease
Venous Insufficiency
Childhood Development
ADD/ADHD
Autism (ASD)
Behavioral Disorders
Down's Syndrome
Dermatologic
Acne
Eczema
Psoriasis
Detoxification
Chemical Sensitivity
Toxic Exposure
Energy Regulation
Chronic Fatigue
Diabetes (I and II)
Dysglycemia
Obesity
Syndrome X
Gastrointestinal
Abdominal Pain
Irritable Bowel
Inflammatory Bowel
Candida
Constipation
Diarrhea
Gastroenteritis
Nausea/Vomiting
Genito-Urinary
Erectile Dysfunction
Interstitial Cystitis
Low Libido
Infertility
Prostatic Diseases


Plus they do more testing.  metametrix.com
You can also find practitioners in your area through their site.

Since we are in this forum...About the supplement:
A 1999 study was undertaken on NCAA Football players during an 8 week spring training program. The control group was told to cease taking any nutritional supplements. Those who took the ZMA tablets continued to take nutritional supplements and showed greater increases in muscle strength, free testosterone levels, and IGF-1 levels.  Surprised?

Because of the obviously poor design of the first study, which was funded by an interested party, another study in 2004 conducted jointly by the Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab of Baylor University, IMAGINutrition, and the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, found that ZMA has no effect on strength, hormone levels, or anaerobic capacity.

The second study was done in a double blind, placebo controlled environment by an excellent team of experienced and well respected researchers.

Effects of Zinc Magnesium Aspartate (ZMA) Supplementation on Training Adaptations and Markers of Anabolism and Catabolism.

Wilborn CD, Kerksick CM, Campbell BI, Taylor LW, Marcello BM, Rasmussen CJ, Greenwood MC, Almada A, Kreider RB.
Exercise & Sport Nutrition Lab, Baylor University, Waco, TX.
ABSTRACT: This study examined whether supplementing the diet with a commercialsupplement containing zinc magnesium aspartate (ZMA) during trainingaffects zinc and magnesium status, anabolic and catabolic hormoneprofiles, and/or training adaptations. Forty-two resistance trainedmales (27 +/- 9 yrs; 178 +/- 8 cm, 85 +/- 15 kg, 18.6 +/- 6% body fat)were matched according to fat free mass and randomly assigned to ingestin a double blind manner either a dextrose placebo (P) or ZMA 30-60minutes prior to going to sleep during 8-weeks of standardizedresistance-training. Subjects completed testing sessions at 0, 4, and 8weeks that included body composition assessment as determined by dualenergy X-ray absorptiometry, 1-RM and muscular endurance tests on thebench and leg press, a Wingate anaerobic power test, and blood analysisto assess anabolic/catabolic status as well as markers of health. Datawere analyzed using repeated measures ANOVA. Results indicated that ZMAsupplementation non-significantly increased serum zinc levels by 11 -17% (p = 0.12). However, no significant differences were observedbetween groups in anabolic or catabolic hormone status, bodycomposition, 1-RM bench press and leg press, upper or lower bodymuscular endurance, or cycling anaerobic capacity. Results indicatethat ZMA supplementation during training does not appear to enhancetraining adaptations in resistance trained populations.

thehardway

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Re:ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Monday, August 18, 2008 3:33 PM ( #3 )
Thank you Dan.

I guess I will look into getting some sort of blood work, done and see if I can pin point the problem.

That would mean I have have to give up my night night medicine for a couple days to get an accurate test?

Do you think that a b-complex supplementation would be a good idea still?

I appreciate the thought,  info, and the study, results of the study not surprising at all.

Thanks a bunch, I hope you are well, I haven't talked to you in a good long while.


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danmirage

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Re:ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Monday, August 18, 2008 3:41 PM ( #4 )
Its good to hear from you.  I am not happy you were not feeling at your best, but I hope that time has passed!

The body is so very complex. 
Even Training is very demanding and sometimes we just need to recover from it!

Perhaps there was something else not in balance and you simply bumped back into its right relation!

It might be worth your while to stop the ZMA after the first bottle and see if you feel a regression.  You can always start again, knowing that the response is quite immediate.

You would know in the first few days.

B-Vits are very good for supporting the body for energy, stress, depressions, sleep, etc.

Some form of full spectrum test if you feel a regression would be worth while to consider.  These are not all blood tests!   (You can even order a test kit, take the samples and send them back!)

Be well!

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Re:ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Friday, August 22, 2008 10:08 PM ( #5 )
Thanks for the info Dan! I always thoroughly read through all of your posts.

Anyways, I've started taking ZMA too and I absolutely love it. The dreams are enough to keep me on it.

Charles Poliquin swears by ZMA. I read many articles where he mentions that after testing each one of his athletes, 99% have a zinc and magnesium deficiency.

xoxoxo
danmirage

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Re:ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Friday, August 22, 2008 10:31 PM ( #6 )
I did not endorse ZMA.

I do not recommend ZMA.  It is overpriced and overrated as a supplement.


Perhaps you missed this:
Results indicate that ZMA supplementation during training does not enhance training adaptations in resistance trained populations. 

The research the ZMA people claim in support of their product(essentially done by them) is not good.  The new research was done by excellent researchers in a very rigorous manner.

Also, I doubt that many of those athlete are zinc deficient, though magnesium is a common deficiency.  Most athletes eat plenty and get plenty of zinc making it more likely that they might consume an excess and run in to other problems.

Most of us who eat and supplement heavily for gains would likely end up with a zinc excess from taking ZMA, and that has undesirable consequences.

A simple multi is a better investment.

Add in some b-complex if you have stress and sleep issues.

Assess your diet and supplements one time to determine any deficiency and excess and adjust properly.

If you need to treat a specific condition, such as stress...then additional supplementation with safe doses of helpful nutrients is not unreasonable (that means not taking zinc in excess!)

Cheers!
<message edited by danmirage on Friday, August 22, 2008 10:36 PM>
SouLja

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Re:ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Saturday, August 23, 2008 10:19 AM ( #7 )
Haha, no Dan I read it all. I got my ZMA for really cheap and the dreams I have are crazy and really lucid, which I like. That's probably the only reason I like it so much. Oh and I bought it a long time ago, before you made this post. I'm going to stop taking it for a while and see how it goes (unless I can get it for cheap again).

And thanks for the info on the B-vitamins.
danmirage

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Re:ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Saturday, August 23, 2008 12:35 PM ( #8 )
Ha haaa!  Lucid dreams might be the real benefit!

Let me know how it goes when you stop.
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Re:ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:26 PM ( #9 )
I don't know that I would attribute that solely to Zinc-Magnesium-Aspartate...but I am glad you felt that way!
SEOINAGE

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Re:ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:20 PM ( #10 )
What are some problems from an excess of zinc?
danmirage

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Re:ZMA, deficiencies, energy...etc - Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:33 PM ( #11 )
The short simple answer....

Generally, When Zinc intake goes up, A intake needs to go up.
Also it can cause the need for copper to rise when intake exceeds 30mg.  That depends.

High dose Zinc can impair the immune system. 
High dose Zinc can also interfere with cell cycles.

Zinc can reach toxic levels at high intakes....and you can tell from the headache, weak muscle, nausea..etc...you are not likely get anywhere near that from supplementation.

Keep in mind a BB diet is high in food intake and thus higher in Vit./Min. intake as well.

It is best to look to a balance of these micro-nutrients for the most part..but then, we are always looking to tweak things...

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