ZMA - Show me it does nothing

Well I've read posts about ZMA before and I know of a few people who claim it does nothing. People have even said "The studies they've done on people taking ZMA were zink deficient." Well... that may be true, but show me. Point me to the study. Prove to me the ZMA doesn't work.

I've used it and enjoyed it. I've recommended it to high-school kids looking to boost testosterone levels safely and some have called back to thank me.

One guy called one day and said "My sons football coach wants him to take 19-BetaDiol" (I think that's what he said). I then asked the guy "Do you know what that is and what the possible side effects are?" He replied that he did not and I told him. I told him to spend his $30 on a book about pro hormones and read about them first before giving them to his son. He then asked what I would recommend. I said "Try ZMA. It's cheaper then pro hormones and has 0 side effects." He ordered some that day.

Two weeks later he calls me back and thanked me probably 15 times. He said his son is a totally new person. He's nicer, has more energy, a new outlook on life... and he even took his little brother to the movies! He became a believer in ZMA.

Now I'm not saying this will happen to everyone. It probably won't happen to 99.9% of the people that take it , but that fact is it does work.

So, back to my main point. Show me the studies that prove the subjects were zink deficient. Show me the product doesn't work. In my experience, and with many of the people I have recommended ZMA to, they have been happy with the results.

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?

I told him to spend his $30 on a book about pro hormones and read about them first before giving them to his son.

Hummm...



Send him to this forum. It's free.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

Sorry Marc.. this was before the forum

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?

OH.. then I retract my previous rolling eyes gif.

But I'm still looking for those studies.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

Source: SupplementWatch.com

ZMA Study:

The most talked about (“hyped”) study among the body-builder crowd is a sports performance trial conducted in 27 football players at Western Washington University and presented at the 1999 American College of Sports Medicine meeting (Brilla and Conte, MSSE, vol 31, No 5, 1999). The study showed that ZMA supplements resulted in a significant increase in testosterone levels and muscle strength. The study was double-blind and randomized (good things) and compared 12 players consuming ZMA to 15 players taking a placebo. The study lasted 2 months, during which time the players continued their intensive training program. Those taking ZMA (30mg of zinc, 450mg of magnesium and 10,5mg of B6) had increased blood levels of the nutrients (6-29%) compared to decreases of 4-9% in the placebo group. The ZMA group also had a 33% increase in blood levels of testosterone compared to a 10% drop in the placebo group. Likewise, blood levels of IGF-1 (a growth factor) were maintained in the ZMA group, while placebo subjects showed a 21% drop in their IGF-1 levels (all comparisons were statistically significant). Finally, muscle strength measurements (quadriceps) on the players indicated that ZMA had a beneficial effect on muscle strength using some, but not all, measurements. An interesting note about this study is that the starting zinc and magnesium levels of these football players was already quite low – so low that they could have been classified as “borderline” deficient or at least with “marginal” zinc status. This is not an uncommon situation for competitive athletes, as exercise can increase both the body’s need for and loss of zinc, magnesium and other minerals. The initial mineral status of these athletes, does not invalidate the results of the study – it simply indicates to us that athletes with marginal zinc/magnesium status can benefit from a zinc/magnesium supplement. This study does NOT show that ZMA is any better than other forms of zinc, magnesium or vitamin B6 combinations. In fact, we know from dozens of other studies that: · Dietary intakes and blood levels of zinc and magnesium are often well below optimal levels in athletes across many types of sports · Exercise training can decrease blood levels of magnesium and zinc · Exercise capacity and muscle power suffer dramatically during zinc depletion · Muscle strength of magnesium-depleted athletes can be increased using magnesium supplements · Zinc supplements can help increase testosterone levels in zinc-deficient subjects So, the bottom-line is that other forms of zinc and magnesium, whether taken separately or in combination (such as in a multivitamin), are likely to have the same effect on testosterone levels and muscle strength via their correction of a sub-optimal mineral status. Because the ZMA formulation has some evidence to back up its claims, however, some consumers may feel more comfortable choosing this form of mineral combination.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

Good study. Thanks for the info... but I notice the following:

zinc and magnesium levels of these football players was already quite low – so low that they could have been classified as “borderline” deficient or at least with “marginal” zinc status. This is not an uncommon situation for competitive athletes, as exercise can increase both the body’s need for and loss of zinc, magnesium and other minerals.

If you are bodybuilding... you are most likely zink deficient. Multi-Vitamins will not make up for the deficiency... only ZMA or some other sort of zinc substitute. My point still stands though... that is: ZMA works.

Like creatine it may work for some and not others. Some swear by creatine and others say it's useless. Same goes for ZMA. I'm a believer, some are non-believers. My point is though, I do not agree with members telling other members its useless. It's not useless, it just might not be at the top of your list of recommended supplements.

I've recommended it to some people and they called me back saying they didn't like it and noticed no results. Others have been very happy with it and continue to order it monthly.

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?

Now I'm not saying this will happen to everyone. It probably won't happen to 99.9% of the people that take it , but that fact is it does work.

For those .1% that are Zinc deficient.

Show me the studies that prove the subjects were zink deficient.

Just did.

I know of a few people who claim it does nothing.

A few hundred is you search around the net.. other forums with numerous posts on the subject.

If you are bodybuilding... you are most likely zink deficient.

Because? Football players take a lot more out of them (running, working out, hard hitting) then bodybuilders do. What makes you think that bodybuilders in general are Zinc deficient?

You just said 99.9% of people will probably experience nothing? So I can only infer that you mean the .1% of bodybuilders.

Like creatine it may work for some and not others.

Creatine is proven to be in the areas of a 30% non-responder ratio. Much higher then your .1% that you infer in your first post.

My point is though, I do not agree with members telling other members its useless.

Maybe.. we are in this sport to try whatever we can to get big or tone, or fit. So if you are taking to the .1% who might benefit.. maybe a better alternative would be to ask them to try 1 month's supply and see if they notice anything different.

Blanket statements do not work.

I tell everybody to use Creatine, but yet, I'm taking to a potential 30% crowd that cannot respond to it..

I'm almost willing to try it myself for a month and really pay attention this time.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

You just said 99.9% of people will probably experience nothing? So I can only infer that you mean the .1% of bodybuilders.

Damn you. You didn't read my post... errr maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I said 99.9% of people will not "Change their life, become much happier, and take their little brother out to a movie." That's what I meant. My percentage had nothing to do those who responded to ZMA.

Soooo... now knowing that most of your post is garbage But I'll respond to what I can.

A few hundred is you search around the net.. other forums with numerous posts on the subject. <--- regarding ZMA not Working

True... and if I search around the net I can find forums with numerous posts on how water is bad for you. I can find articles that prove breathing in oxygen will kill you. This is the internet. For everything good people can find a bad. I do agree with you though.. I've been to other sites and read the same things I'm reading here... but how many people posting this stuff has actually researched this information? Think about it bro. Lets say our 300 or so members come here and hear 3 members say "ZMA is useless." What do you think they will say? Let me tell you. The next time they meet someone or see a post online asking about ZMA, that person will say "It's useless." Not because they researched it... but because that's what they were told. Again, this is the internet. I don't believe anything I read on the internet until I've researched it on my own.

Because? Football players take a lot more out of them (running, working out, hard hitting) then bodybuilders do. What makes you think that bodybuilders in general are Zinc deficient?

What makes you think they are not? Sure, football players work out longer and therefor are more prone to zinc deficency... but what makes you think that bodybuilders can not be zink deficient.

Now think about this! In the studies done on ZMA... they are almost all double blind studies. So how is it that pretty much every study shows an improvement in testosterone levels when no one could know if their zink deficient or not?

Other then that I can't respond to all your .1% comments because we mis-understood each other.

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?

Two weeks later he calls me back and thanked me probably 15 times. He said his son is a totally new person. He's nicer, has more energy, a new outlook on life... and he even took his little brother to the movies! He became a believer in ZMA.

Now I'm not saying this will happen to everyone. It probably won't happen to 99.9% of the people that take it , but that fact is it does work.

Oh okay.. true... I did mis-understand.

But what does this have to do with body building?

Nicer? More energy? New outlook on life? Babysitting?

I don't need ZMA.. I need Tony Robbins and a nanny.

I don't believe anything I read on the internet until I've researched it on my own.

Well I don't think our ~300 members are going to do this.. that's what we are for. So what can we do to make sure the ZMA rumors end here?

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

Well I don't think our ~300 members are going to do this.. that's what we are for. So what can we do to make sure the ZMA rumors end here?

Exactly... my point for starting this discussion. Lets get some other peoples opinions on this topic. Can't keep arguing with MDA or else it looks like we'll start arguing about nanny's

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?

ZMA: "Anabolic Rockets" or The Latest Supplement Scam?


By Tom Venuto, CSCS


Remember the supplement Boron a few years ago? For a short while, it was big news in the bodybuilding world. A single study was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal showing that the mineral Boron increased testosterone levels. When this information hit the muscle magazines, Boron became all the rage, but its brief stay in the limelight didn’t last long. It turns out that all the hype was based on the results of that one study, which was taken completely out of context to bilk unsuspecting consumers. What the advertisers didn't reveal is that the study in question was done on postmenopausal women and had nothing to do with building muscle in bodybuilders! By the time everyone found out, some shady supplement companies had already made a tidy bundle of cash and they were busy hunting for their next "miracle supplement."

Well, it looks like the marketing mavens are at it again. The latest rage: ZMA. ZMA, a combination of Zinc and Magnesium, is being hyped as the "newest breakthrough" in sports nutrition. Claims are being made that it increases testosterone, increases strength and improves performance. What makes these claims sound even more impressive is the fact that some of the research was conducted on professional football players. Impressive advertising ammunition.

I've looked at the study from Western Washington University that is frequently quoted in the magazines and I’m not convinced. ("L.R. Brilla, Conte V., A novel zinc and magnesium formulation (ZMA) increases anabolic hormones and strength in athletes. Med. Sci. Sports Exer. 31(5 Supp) pp.S123, 1999).

I believe the study was flawed and/or that a supplement company was in some way involved. Besides, one study means nothing. Look in the library hard enough and you can find a study to back up nearly any theory you want. Or, as in the case of the Boron fiasco, you can take the findings of a study completely out of context.

Keep in mind that ZMA and all similar products are basically just Zinc (with magnesium), nothing more, nothing less. Minerals are inorganic substances that your body needs in minute quantities for various functions in the human body. If you are deficient in a mineral, there may be a negative effect on your health or your performance. By bringing deficient mineral status up to "normal" levels, you may see an increase in health or performance. However, if you are NOT deficient, taking additional quantities of any mineral or vitamin probably won't do anything except produce expensive urine.

I don't want to start a war, so I'm not going to reveal the sources of the following two quotes, but let's just say that one is from a supplement company's website that sells a Zinc supplement and the other is from a supplement company's website that does not. From this information, I'll let you draw your own well-reasoned conclusions:

Quote A:

"ZMA is a special blend of zinc and magnesium that has proven anabolic properties. It's amazing that just two common minerals, when "tweaked" a bit, can turn into ergogenic rockets."

Quote B:

"I have to admit that sometimes being part of the sports supplement industry embarrasses me. I cannot hide from this one...ZMA is an embarrassment to our industry. Why would I say that? I know that the name "ZMA" sounds really cool...like it is some hyper technical formula that will have great effects on your body. Furthermore, every magazine is hyping this supplement and making it look like some miracle potion. Unfortunately, ZMA is nothing more than the minerals zinc and magnesium. At most, ZMA might have an effect on someone who is vastly deficient in these minerals but for the average person or fitness fanatic, it is basically worthless. ZMA is a basically nothing more than a scam! Mark my words that ZMA will be a forgotten supplement by the beginning of next year because people will realize that it doesn't work."

Quote B reminds me of something strength coach Ian King wrote in his (outstanding) book "Get Buffed:"

"As a coach, I like to see a supplement on the market for about three years before coming to too many conclusions. The power of marketing can have a great placebo effect. But after a few years, any supplements that could be described as 'unclear' get sorted out by the consumer demand and supply. If you analyzed the 'rage' supplements as per marketing dollar each year for the last 10 years, you would be stunned by how many 'almost drug-like' supplements have come and gone."

I suggest you listen to Ian: his straightforward, common sense advice will help you make better decisions on what supplements you should spend your hard-earned money on.

Marc C. David - NGA CPT
Author of NoBull Bodybuilding
www.nobullbodybuilding.com

As you said to me before... it boils down to if you are zink deficient or not. If you are, it's a good supplement to take. I must be because I liked the results. It's nothing like prohormones... not even close, but it does work and you can tell it's working (for me anyways).

Now you need to determine if you are zink deficient. I'm not sure of any tests on the market but maybe your doctor would be able to tell. Or you could just spend the $12 for a 30 day supply of ZMA. If you are looking for a safe alternative to increasing testosterone naturally, I would recommend ZMA. You can not be guaranteed any results... but even if the supplement doesn't work you can tell people "Hey, I spent my $12 on a test to determine if I was zink deficiant... and it looks like I am not."

Kris Anderson
Have you ordered from Supplements101.com yet?