Whey Protein vs Mass Gainer

Well im new into the body building so excuse me for my lack of knowledge.

For a thin person, is it better to take Mass Gainers to start off with, or go straight into Whey Protein?

We will need more info from you, I think.  I see from another post you're 18 and 130 lb I believe.  How tall?  Sounds like you have low fat.  Any muscle?  What's your training history?  What's your diet like?  You'll want to try to clean up your diet and make it good, nutritious food, and probably lots of it.  I take a protein shake before and after workouts and a big one before I go to bed.  I also take a gainer shake or two during the day.  But the guys would tell you that's probably too much, that I should get more of my calories from real food.  If you can provide some pictures, those are helpful.  In lieu of that, measurements (chest, waist, upper arms, thighs, calves) would be helpful.

I always say, as a general rule of thumb, that true beginners should avoid gainer shakes altogether until they have at least a good four to six months of hard diet and training under their belts.  Gainer shakes (as I'm learning from deconstructing their manufacturers' claims) are mostly hype and cynical money-making schemes.  If even one third of the people out there buying gainer shakes today stopped taking them until they had truly maximized their whole food intake to the point where using one was necessary, the gainer manufacturers would go bankrupt.

Browse through my profile and snoop around in my before & after photos.  I started under 145 lbs (actually under 135 if you go all the way back to when I joined DBB), and I packed on a significant amount of lean mass in a very short time without so much as one drop of gainer.  And I'm a freakin' VEGGIEHEAD!

That said, I definitely recommend some kind of post-workout whey protein/creatine/glutamine stack for anyone just getting started in bodybuilding, because these should form the foundation of any supplementation regimen for those trying to bulk up.  If you're eating every three to four hours, you'll find you get all the calories you need.  Use gainer shakes when you know you're putting away as much whole food as you can and still not meeting your caloric surplus requirements, but not a moment before.

My home away from DBB

Veg, you're right (as usual damnit).  ;)
But let me ask you:  How much time do you put into planning, preparing, and eating the natural food.  I'm finding it hard to muster up the patience to do that.  If someone (perhaps you) could give me some tips on how to eat clean without a lot of effort, I'm all ears.  I think a lot of people aren't as disciplined as you are at it.  I'm certainly not.  I respect you for it.  It pisses me off that you can do it and I can't.  I guess I'm just a lazy f***.  If I could cook and store a bunch of good food that I could just grab out of the fridge or freezer, I'd be golden.  How can I make that happen?

I would never recommend someone buying a whey gainer over pure whey.

Reasons:
1. They are extremely more expensive.
2. You could use the $ to buy more food to feed you up.
3. You could exactly match the level of calories of a whey gainer by using: 2 scoops of whey protein + 2 banana + milk (much better nutrition wise)
4. The protein in a whey gainer is not as good as whey (most of the time they mix it with other forms of protein).

5'8.1"
Age = 20 
started in February 16th 2007: 58kg (127.6lbs)
current : around 79-80kg (173.8lb-176lb)

FOOD

JMBS


Veg, you're right (as usual damnit).  ;)
But let me ask you:  How much time do you put into planning, preparing, and eating the natural food.  I'm finding it hard to muster up the patience to do that.  If someone (perhaps you) could give me some tips on how to eat clean without a lot of effort, I'm all ears.  I think a lot of people aren't as disciplined as you are at it.  I'm certainly not.  I respect you for it.  It pisses me off that you can do it and I can't.  I guess I'm just a lazy f***.  If I could cook and store a bunch of good food that I could just grab out of the fridge or freezer, I'd be golden.  How can I make that happen?

Don't be too hard on yourself, dude.  It's only rocket surgery and brain science if you make it so -and trust me, I know the temptation is very strong; I wasted a LOT of time trying to make things complicated with exact caloric ratio tracking and meal planning spreadsheets.  At the end of the day all the theories and high tech tools for tracking calories won't put an ounce of muscle on you if you can't make it flow with the rhythms of your daily existence.

That's why I don't bother with the details anymore -at least, not when I'm bulking.  I'm sure when it comes time to carve it all up and get shreddified, my tune will change significantly, but for right now, this house needs rough hewn timber and ten inch spikes, not crown molding and a brad nailer, if you catch my drift.

My dietary philosophy for bulking, as I explained it in an PM recently to someone else, is simple, and threefold (there's room for details, don't worry):

1.  Eat mostly clean, unprocessed, whole foods

2.  Try to get at least a pound of food at every meal

3.  Eat every 3 to 4 hours

That's it.  No fitday.com minute-by-minute tracking.  No BMR measurements and forecasting caloric surpluses.  Just EAT.

I believe this strategy is what we call, in the vernacular, a "dirty bulk".  Now don't get me wrong -I'm not advocating that anyone wishing to pack on mass should throw caution to the wind and IGNORE calroies.  That would be truly boneheaded.  That's where the details fit into item #1.

The beautiful thing about "meal planning" (if we have to call it that) is that you only have to do it once.  Sit down with your favorite foods and figure out how to hit the fat/carb/protein calorie ratios that suit your goals for bulking, and then eat a truckload of it.  It's that simple, really.  Example: organic peanut butter on whole grain bread with honey and bananas.  Calorically dense, satisfying, and compact.  Tweak the macronutrient ratios by adjusting the amount of each ingredient.  Not enough net calories in one?  Make two.  The point is, once the ratios are established, VOLUME takes care of the rest.

I try to make everything else an "intuitive" decision -you know, play it by ear.  For example, I know that the greatest release of growth hormone occurs within an hour or two of falling asleep, and I know that excessive carbohydrates interfere with growth hormone release.  Ergo, low to no carbs in my last meal of the day.  How to compensate for the lost calories?  Increase the fat and protein.

As to finding the time to prepare all this food, I won't lie to you.  I eat out a lot.  I have a handful of favorite restaurants that offer healthy vegetarian options, and I eat them constantly.  I know -one of the luxuries of being single.  But the concept is the same no matter who prepares the food: design ten to fifteen easy dishes and eat them until they come out your ears.  When you get good and sick of those dishes, THEN sit down and think up some new ones.

Stir-fry is your friend.  You can control exactly how much healthy fat, carbs and protein are getting into the mix, and the seemingly infinite variety of sauces and spices can multiply the options exponentially.  Whole wheat noodles, tofu, fresh veggies (zucchini, yellow squash, broccoli, ****ake mushrooms, red and yellow peppers), and peanut oil in a wok.  Throw in teryaki sauce, you have Japanese.  Black bean sauce, you have Chinese.  With the basic macronutrients in the right ratios, you can disguise it in any flavor you want.  And remember, you don't have to actually COOK everything in advance and portion it out for the week -I find that often leads to thrown-out leftovers, cause I usually overestimate how enthused I will be about eating the same thing three days in a row.  Instead, portion out the RAW INGREDIENTS for a week, and leave the final prep open to last-minute tweaks.

My home away from DBB

Veg,
   Awesome info!  Thanks for your time!  :)
Wow, a pound a meal!  I'm not likin' the sound of that.  But I guess the Hungry Man TV dinners I used to eat  (I'm covering my ears now!) were a pound of manly food and I used to snarf those down.  I'll work on the meal plan today.  I'll let you know what I come up with.
   Not to put you to more work, but I will anyway!  ;)  What are your recommendations for what to order when eating out, say at a Friday's and at a fast food joint.  I have a book, Men's Health Eat Right Guide that gives you one good meal to order at a lot of restaurants, but only one.  What sorts of things do you eat out?  I don't have any health food restaurants in my little suburban/rural area.  Thanks!  :)

I didn't read the responses because I'm tired and hungover, and I didn't feel like it, so I apologize if this has already been said.  But weight gainer shakes usually contain a lot of sugar and other useless crap that will definately cause you to gain weight, but not in a good way.  Whey protien is simply just protien, and only does one thing - allows you to get the necessary amount of protien for the day (which is a good thing).

That being said, avoid weight gainer shakes at all costs, and use food to gain weight.  Protien shakes are fine, but whole foods are better.  But if you are unable to meet your daily protien requirements from whole foods, then supplementing with whey protien is fine.

"True genius, in many fields of human endeavor, is often revealed in elegant simplicity."

- A smart man

Journal: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=117358

JMBS

...What are your recommendations for what to order when eating out, say at a Friday's and at a fast food joint.  I have a book, Men's Health Eat Right Guide that gives you one good meal to order at a lot of restaurants, but only one.  What sorts of things do you eat out?  I don't have any health food restaurants in my little suburban/rural area.  Thanks!  :)

Well, let's see...

Breafasts should be easy; most diners have a vegetarian omelet option.  I skip the cheese, sometimes opt for egg beaters, or just egg whites, ask them to go easy on the butter, and get whole grain bagels, toast, or English muffins.  fresh fruit is a no-brainer.  One of my favorite Mexican restaurants offers breakfast burritos with and without meat, smothered with red chile sauce and refried beans on the side (refried beans and coffee in the morning ).  And of course, oatmeal.

Lunch and dinner:

SaladWorks is like Chipotle Mexican Grill, but for salads.  You design it, they toss it.  If you have one in your area, they tend to be pricey for a salad, but they give you a TON.

Mexican: veggie burritos and enchiladas -opt for black beans if available, and go easy on the cheese (too many Mexican outfits smother everything with cheddar and Monterrey Jack, 'cause Taco Hell has brainwashed Americans into thinking it's a signature of Mexican cuisine).  Most Mexican restaurants offer fajitas -always a favorite cause they leave the assembly up to you, and the components are obviously fresh.

Asian: Any kind of stir fry that uses noodles or brown rice as a base.  Finding good lo mein or stir-fried rice that isn't loaded with fat is tricky tho -don't be afraid to ask what kind of oil they use, and request that they make it fresh with less if necessary.  Come to think of it, vegetable spring rolls are probably the only deep-fried food left in my diet anymore (except Indian Samosas, perhaps).  And, of course, the Chinese invented tofu, so there's never any problem substituting the ubiquitous pork, chicken, or beef out of their dishes.

Italian: Sawzeech an Mee-BAWLS, Gabbagool, Pepperoni... oh.  Sorry -that's what I USED to eat.  Probably the only foods I had trouble giving up were the stuff my mother raised me on.  But then, like a lot of people with comfort food addictions I had to come to terms with the fact that it wasn't doing me any good, so good riddance.  Italian is a no-brainer for vegetarians, what with all the pasta options.  Marinara and (lite) alfredo are staples, as are pesto, olive oil & parmesan, and good, old fashioned tomato pomodoro.  Let's not forget the primavera, and ravioli, which you can find just about anywhere these days stuffed with things other than cheese (I had an unbelievable summer squash ravioli at Il Forniao a few weeks ago -a tad heavy on the pine nuts, but still quite tasty).  When I'm treating myself to a fish entree, Romano's Macaroni Grill makes a killer grilled Halibut that they serve on pesto risotto, and of course grilled salmon with asparagus and rice.

Indian: This is the cuisine that turned me veg, by the way, so watch your back.  If you're not careful, you just might be so impressed by the variety of flavors they can conjure without a scrap of meat that you get sucked in.  Anything with chick peas or lentils is a good bet, as they are both exploding with protein.  Korma made with cauliflower and almonds, Dum Aloo (potato dumplings), Dal, onion fritters, and of course samosas -you can eat pretty much anything in an Indian restaurant with impunity.  If you're looking for healthy meat options, they have lamb and tandoori chicken that blows the fast food rotisserie joints away.

I could go on for hours, but you get the point.  Look for things you haven't tried before.  Aim for the salad menu -most fern bars (like Bennigan's, TGI Friday's, American Cafe, Ruby Tuesdays, Red Robin, etc.) have huge entree salad menu options, and you can always have them throw some dead animals on your rabbit food if you feel it would give the greens more balls (one of my faves before kicking the habit was thinly-sliced, medium rare NY Strip on a bed of romaine.  Any steak house should have it on the menu).  I can even eat at Outback Craphouse -gimme the sauteed mushrooms, steamed veggies, a salad, and the baked sweet potato.

This is all making me quite hungry

My home away from DBB

Veg,
   Wow!   Thanks!  My printer's gonna run out of ink, thanks to you!  ;)  Lots of variety there!  All the vegetables you eat are very healthy, no doubt, but how do you get all that food down?   Vegetables don't seem calorie dense at all.  Thanks again for great information!  :)

If you are going to take weight gainer or want to use a shake I sugest making your own. You can get much better quaility protein and carbs. Most of the carbs in weight gainers come from dextrose. I would use some whey isolate and casein with ground oats, 1-2 cups, and some flax or olive oil. Not only is it healthier and more filling, it less than half the price of the pre mixed crap.

JMBS


Veg,
   Wow!   Thanks!  My printer's gonna run out of ink, thanks to you!  ;)  Lots of variety there!  All the vegetables you eat are very healthy, no doubt, but how do you get all that food down?   Vegetables don't seem calorie dense at all.  Thanks again for great information!  :)

They aren't.  And they go right through you  Believe me, I'm a human compost machine.  Again, the veggies themselves don't pack a lot of calories -that comes from preparation.  The carbs and fats that I pair them with can easily blow a veggie burrito up to an 800 calorie affair lickity split.  Those peanut butter sandwitches I mentioned are 600 calories apiece.  Cheese ravioli with marinara, 900 calories.  Etc, etc...

My home away from DBB

veggeep


They aren't.  And they go right through you  Believe me, I'm a human compost machine.  Again, the veggies themselves don't pack a lot of calories -that comes from preparation.  The carbs and fats that I pair them with can easily blow a veggie burrito up to an 800 calorie affair lickity split.  Those peanut butter sandwitches I mentioned are 600 calories apiece.  Cheese ravioli with marinara, 900 calories.  Etc, etc...

Pretty sure they sell Febreze by the case at Costco.  Personal space never an issue, I'm guessin'?

Baseball22


If you are going to take weight gainer or want to use a shake I sugest making your own. You can get much better quaility protein and carbs. Most of the carbs in weight gainers come from dextrose. I would use some whey isolate and casein with ground oats, 1-2 cups, and some flax or olive oil. Not only is it healthier and more filling, it less than half the price of the pre mixed crap.

You know, I was just about to point this out on my "Man Behind the Curtain" thread, but it really is highway robbery, what these jerks are doing.  Think about it.  I can get over 60 servings out of a $50 bucket of Optimum Nutrition whey isolate, but they charge the same amount for an inferior protein in a similar-sized bucket of gainer, and you get less than a third of the servings out of it!  I have only three words for that:

Doubleyoooo   Tee   EFF?!

I'm starting to really like Baseball22's idea.  Make your own.

My home away from DBB

BB22,
    So a svg of whey/protein powder (flavor?  vanilla?), 2 c oatmeal, cook in water, add flax oil?  That's it?  If so, I can handle that!

oh really?  Ever tasted it?

HA HA HA... just kidding.  I'm sure it's delish

My home away from DBB

veggeep


oh really?  Ever tasted it?

HA HA HA... just kidding.  I'm sure it's delish

I meant I can handle the preparation.  Consumption would be to be determined.  ;)
 
Seriously (what's the shorthand 'srsly"?), if anyone can come up with a palatable homemade brew that's not rocket science, let me know.

I wouldn't recommend cooking the oats.  I usually blend them up by themselves first into a fine powder, before blending the rest of the ingredients to make a shake.

If you cook the oats first you're gonna have sludge, hard-to-get-and-keep-down sludge.

"But a true champion, face to face with his darkest hour, will do whatever it takes to rise above. A man fights, and fights, and then fights some more. Because surrender is death, and death is for pussies."

What's the liquid in the shake, not just the flax oil?  Milk, water?

Someone please recommend a flax seed oil that doesn't taste like the underside of a lawn mower.

Last time I made a homemade shake and threw flax seed oil in it, it went right down the drain.

My home away from DBB

veggeep


Someone please recommend a flax seed oil that doesn't taste like the underside of a lawn mower.

Last time I made a homemade shake and threw flax seed oil in it, it went right down the drain.

I have Spectrum Essentials Organic Flax Oil.  I've actually enjoyed the taste.  The container I have is opened in the fridge and is about 6 months old probably.  I bet it tastes somthin' fierce right now.  Stuff's expensive.

Hmmmm... I shall have to investigate.  I don't remember what brand mine was, but I got it at Whole Paycheck -I mean Whole FOODS- Market.

My home away from DBB

How do you make a 600 cal PB sandwich?

Arnold 12-Grain Bread: 220 calories/2 slices
Harris Teeter Naturals Organic Peanut Butter: 180 calories/2 tbsp
Banana: 121 calories/1 Large
Honey: 64 Calories/1 tbsp

Total: 585 calories -a smidge more peanut butter puts it over the top.

[edit] Two of those bad boys, and you're stuffing 1,200 calories (84g complex carbs before you add in the simple sugars from the banana and honey, and 34g protein).  Sounds like a typical gainer shake

My home away from DBB

I'll admit this is an aquired taste, but I'm used to it.

I'll take about 20grams of whey and 20g of casein chocolate from allthewhey.com.

I grind 2 cups of oats in a coffee grinder. I don't grind real fine, kinda leave them chunky so its more filling like a meal. You can grind it down real fine into a shake based on your preference.

Then I throw in 1 tbs of either olive oil or mct oil.

Add 16oz of water, shake and chug. Probably need to add more water to finish it all off.

Dang, that's old school!  I LIKE it!!

On that note, I've found that if you put flax seeds in a coffee grinder and reduce them to powder, you can get a nice dose of MCTs without the nasty flavor, and it also acts as a thickener.  In fact, most vegan cookbooks recommend ground flax seeds as an emulsifier and alternative to eggs in baking recipes.  Works ridiculously well, actually.  However, I think the bulk from the flax seeds mixed with the oatmeal might be a bit too much.  At some point, it'll be like drinking concrete.

My home away from DBB

mmmm concrete..........

veggeep


Arnold 12-Grain Bread: 220 calories/2 slices
Harris Teeter Naturals Organic Peanut Butter: 180 calories/2 tbsp
Banana: 121 calories/1 Large
Honey: 64 Calories/1 tbsp

Total: 585 calories -a smidge more peanut butter puts it over the top.

[edit] Two of those bad boys, and you're stuffing 1,200 calories (84g complex carbs before you add in the simple sugars from the banana and honey, and 34g protein).  Sounds like a typical gainer shake

Lol, man. Looks too much carbs for me. I would drop the honey.

Also, add some high protein cheese in them to boost the calories and protein even more!

5'8.1"
Age = 20 
started in February 16th 2007: 58kg (127.6lbs)
current : around 79-80kg (173.8lb-176lb)

brihead301
 

  But weight gainer shakes usually contain a lot of sugar and other useless crap that will definately cause you to gain weight, but not in a good way. 

can you explain "not good way"??

"The More Stupid People Think You Are, The More Surprised They Will Get When You Kill Them"