When to bulk and when to cut
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When to bulk and when to cut - 3/26/2007 6:48:56 PM
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danmac75
Posts: 267
Joined: 11/26/2006
From: Beantown
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How should decide whether to bulk or cut? I personally have a high BF% at 25% accurately measured just this evening. For my age and my height, there is information on the internet that suggests and ideal "weight" for me to be 165. At 201 lbs, I'm about 150lbs lean. I'm thinking of doing this...
Bulk for about 4 months and gain 1lb a week so that my LBM is the "ideal weight" for men my height and my age. Then just start cycling every 8 weeks between cutting and bulking. What do y'all think? It's very simplistic and just an intuitive idea, so I'm open to suggestion.
My long term goal is a BF% of 16% and to do that as fast as possible. I have a lot of research to do and am going to read DanMirage's Gaining Mass and Losing Fat articles again. I have to calculate a timetable for when I can reach my goal of 16%.
Fire away guys.
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RE: When to bulk and when to cut - 3/27/2007 12:04:04 AM
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fjord
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Joined: 12/20/2006
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why dont you just cut right down to your ideal body fat percentage then start your bulking phase and then cut after a few months of bulking?
(in reply to danmac75)
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RE: When to bulk and when to cut - 3/27/2007 2:26:10 AM
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vdk_au
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Joined: 2/13/2006
From: Australia
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There is no such thing as the "idea weight". The BMI is not very accurate as in it doesn't take effect into the body fat %, and thus you can be considered overweight if you have alot of muscles, or can be considered "within range" even with a high body fat %.
Personally, I would suggest to cut down before bulking as personally I believe 25% is a bit too high for bulking.
(in reply to fjord)
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RE: When to bulk and when to cut - 3/27/2007 6:50:02 AM
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danmac75
Posts: 267
Joined: 11/26/2006
From: Beantown
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I'll do it! I'm going to cut down.
(in reply to vdk_au)
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RE: When to bulk and when to cut - 3/27/2007 10:46:06 AM
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danmirage
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quote:
My long term goal is a BF% of 16% and to do that as fast as possible.
That seems to be your major focus. I would say that you should look at perhaps 4 weeks of bulking before embarking on any cut. You want to besure you have an understanding and control of your metabolism and your unique dietary needs.
That means...learn how to eat right for your unique chemistry, learn how to resistance train so you gain muscle, learn to balance rest, get control of your metabolism...
Once you understand how much you need to eat to maintain and how much to gain with just warm up and cool down cardio and proper resistance training...then you can modify diet and training and even gradually add in a progressive cardio component to accelerate the fat loss.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmac75)
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RE: When to bulk and when to cut - 3/27/2007 12:22:01 PM
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danmac75
Posts: 267
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From: Beantown
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Relevant and concise. Thanks Danmirage. I can definitely see "having a control of my metabolism" is crucial. I think I can do 4 weeks gain with no reserve. I will go for a slow, 1lb/week gain. With any luck, I'll actually improve my bf% anyways, not to mention pack on some muscle to help for the fat burn cycle.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: When to bulk and when to cut - 3/27/2007 1:56:27 PM
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danmac75
Posts: 267
Joined: 11/26/2006
From: Beantown
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Ok having taken a look at the numbers, and that I want to get down to about 16% as a first goal, I've figured out that it'll take about 5 1/2 months if I was to lose a pound of fat a week. I'm using advice taken from Danmirage's post that this is about what you can lose in fat without losing muscle, if done right.
In theory, if I were to cut for 5 months straight then I would stay at my current 150 lean and lose 20 pounds of fat. I think it's clear that I'm trying to lose body fat only, and am not concerned with my overall weight. Furthermore, I know that cutting for 6 months straight is unrealisticand probably counterproductive. That being said, I plan on developing a cycle that will help me reach my goal in about 6 months time. Is this doable? What would you reccommend as a general guidline, forgetting about personal changes that I'll have to stay in tune to and take into account when tweaking my training.
I'm going to assume that you'd reccommend something like a 4 week bulk, 8 week cut cycle. So I'd start off 4 weeks of a 1lb a week bulk, then 8 weeks of a 1lb/week cut, and repeat. Does that sound okay?
I like the principles of hypertrophy explained on www.hypertrophy-specific.com and think that it's simple enough and varied enough that I can't really screw it up. Now that is great for the bulking phase, as hypertrophy is designed for increasing muscle size. I have yet to choose and tweak a fat loss workout. I'll for sure be checking some reccommendations in Danmirage's Fat Loss primer.
So I'm thinking 4 week bulk, 8 week cut, 1 week targeted deconditioning, 4 week bulk, 8 week cut.
My foundation plan is to figure out my maxes at 10 reps for a bunch of different exercises, to include squats, deads, pull ups on the gravitron, standing military press, et cetera. It will take some time to figure them out so I'm not going to count that as the starting date of working towards my goal. I'll call it the ancillary start date. I also have to flesh out and get used to a fat loss weight training routine with cardio to see what I'm most comfortable with. I've got a lot of work ahead of me here in learning about fat loss workouts, nutrition however should be no problem.
As far as my hypertrophy specific bulking phases in the weight room, what I'll do is take my max on 10 reps for those exercises, assign them to the last day of the 4 week phase. I'll subtract small amounts of weight from each day moving backwards, so that at the beginning of the month I'll be well below my max, but at the end I'll be hitting my max. This prescribes to the Progressive Load principle. I also have heard that beginners tend to have success with 3 day a week full body workouts. I'll do put the most sets on my back, probably about 12 a week. Next is Chest, Legs and Shoulders, with 9 per week, then Bis Tris Calves and Abs at 6 sets per week. I plan on keeping the iso exercises (bis tris calves and abs) towards the end of the workout, because if I can't keep it under an hour I want to get my compound exercises in.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_II.html
Should I just try to follow that week's worth of training and doing it over a month? If it's during my bulking phase, I'll be sure to eat enough, and having had my BF tested with hydrostatic weighin, I can accurately assign the appropriate amount of calories. Since I'd be eating right, would that make doing squats 3x a week safr? I'm thinking of doing this, now, just because it's laid out for me and seems like a good starting point. I've just been told that doing 3xweek squats is crazy so I'm kind of apprehensive.
Basically, am I right in assuming that your cautions would be to eat enough during the bulking phase, and to not eat too little during the cutting phase?
< Message edited by danmac75 -- 3/27/2007 2:06:40 PM >
(in reply to danmac75)
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RE: When to bulk and when to cut - 3/27/2007 3:52:00 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6023
Joined: 11/20/2005
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You can do the HST, no problem. Just start out easy and get conditioned.
quote:
Should I just try to follow that week's worth of training and doing it over a month?
Sure but be sure to read the whole article as it talks about PROGRESSION in more than just load. you can keep with it for the whole 12 weeks...just vary the stimuli as recommended.
quote:
Basically, am I right in assuming that your cautions would be to eat enough during the bulking phase, and to not eat too little during the cutting phase
That is true but waaay to general boardering on wrong.
You need to keep the resistance training as close to 40 minutes to a max of 60 minutes (not counting warm up and cool down) to optimaize fat burn and muscle growth..from a hormonal stance.
Dial in a meal plan including pre and post workout nutrition.
quote:
So I'm thinking 4 week bulk, 8 week cut, 1 week targeted deconditioning, 4 week bulk, 8 week cut
After you get the understandings from the first 12 weekd, you can just follow a cutting plan for the next 12 weeks.
1/2 to 2 pounds a week of fat loss. Adjust your training and diet to your results.
quote:
I plan on developing a cycle that will help me reach my goal in about 6 months time. Is this doable?
Yup.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmac75)
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RE: When to bulk and when to cut - 3/27/2007 7:55:47 PM
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danmirage
Posts: 6023
Joined: 11/20/2005
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quote:
I don't want to buy anything
No need. The multi page article you linked, from page one...has all the details!
Give a it one slow close read, copying out the details...it talks about varying movements, varying set ranges, pace of movements...how to plan the progression, etc..
quote:
I've heard for fat loss, go high reps and low weight. Is this correct?
No. And yes.
Mainly no.
People say this because there are many muscle fiber types and higher reps, 20-50, stimulate the oxidative muscle (Type I, Type IIA)...oxidative muscle has less hypertrophy potential and less overall metabolic advantage..however oxidative means that FAT (and/or glucose) is the fuel source for this muscle, while Glycolytic muscle (Type II) does not burn fat for energy.
So Including some training in the higher rep range in your hypertrophy plan has the advantage of building up the amount of oxidative muscle you have and increasing your fat burning potenntial...more than if you had neglected it!
However, you do not want to train this way exclusively because you will lose the larger glycolytic muscle and slow your metabolism overall.
So, as per the HST plan...vary the rep ranges and include some higher rep days!
You can also work it this way....
Monday could be 10 reps, Wednesday 20 reps. Friday 5 reps.
Get it?
Unlimited possibility!
Sorry for the mini-physiology lesson! Now you know.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to danmac75)
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RE: When to bulk and when to cut - 3/27/2007 8:07:42 PM
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danmac75
Posts: 267
Joined: 11/26/2006
From: Beantown
Status: offline
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No need to apologize. I've done some study on physiology and have a text book called Health & Fitness. I am fascinated by the topic. Haven't cracked that book in a while. Maybe once I settle in to the new place.
And yes, that's what I love about that web site is it's based on principles, not just "Do this plan because it works". I think the reason that I am all for that because it leaves room for more flexibility, like throwing in some high rep workouts to stimulate that type of muscle fiber.
How am I supposed to keep track of all of that though? It's easy to say "I'm gonna keep a log" but honestly, wouldn't you have to keep a record of your maxes on different rep ranges for each exercise?
(in reply to danmirage)
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. I'm sure I can look it up on this board even. 
