What is better - Casein or Whey Protein?
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What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 8/28/2006 7:28:04 AM
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danmirage
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Fast and Slow Protein which is "better" - that is the question!
I found it very interesting to look over comparisons of casein versus Whey protein and the effects on protein absorbtion, breakdown (catabolism), and synthesis (anabolism).
Boirie et al.(2) found that a 30 gram feeding of casein protein versus whey protein had different effects on post-prandial (Prandial: Of or relating to a meal) protein gain. Both whey and casein are proteins derived from milk. In essence, they showed that whey protein is absorbed very quickly producing peak levels of amino acids at approximately 60-90 minutes after ingestion and then returning to baseline levels at approximately 3-4 hours post-ingestion. Casein on the other produced a much slower and less dramatic rise in amino acid levels peaking at approximately 60-90 minutes but maintaining higher levels of amino acids (versus baseline) over the entire 7-hr time frame.
Evidently, the differences in digestion and absorption translate into differences in protein metabolism. For instance, they discovered that whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% by casein ingestion but not by whey. However, whey protein ingestion stimulated protein synthesis by 68% while casein stimulated protein synthesis to a lesser extent (+31%). However, when they looked at the ‘net leucine balance’ over the 7-hour time period after ingestion, casein ingestion resulted in a significantly higher net balance (i.e., post-feeding protein deposition was greater). Apparently, a fast absorbing protein such as whey stimulates protein synthesis tremendously but a large part of the protein is also oxidized (used as fuel). Thus, one might conclude from this single study that a single feeding of a ‘slow’ protein such as casein is superior for promoting protein accretion to a ‘fast’ protein such as whey when examined in healthy subjects over a 7-hr time frame.
However, this same laboratory followed this study with a more in-depth investigation.(3) They took four groups of 5 or 6 young men and had them consume a 30-gram protein meal. However, they were divided into four categories:
a) a single meal of slowly digested casein (CAS)
b) a single meal of free form amino acids that had the same composition as the casein (AA)
c) a single meal of rapidly digested whey protein (WP)
d) repeated small meals of whey protein mimicking the slow digestion rate seen in the casein (RPT-WP). The RPT-WP group had 13 small whey protein meals given every 20 minutes over four hours. All subjects were examined over a 7-hr period.
When they examined leucine balance (a measure of whole body anabolism), CAS was found to be superior to AA and the RPT-WP was superior to WP. And with regards to RPT-WP versus CAS, their preliminary data suggest that RPT-WP is better than CAS.
Clearly, these two studies show that the digestion rate of protein may be more important than other factors such as amino acid composition. Moreover, the amino acid composition of whey and casein are strikingly different even though both proteins contain all of the essential amino acids. For instance, in a serving of 100 grams (powder), casein contains 11.6 and 8.9 grams of glutamine and leucine, respectively. Whey contains 21.9 and 11.1 grams of glutamine and leucine, respectively. Both glutamine and leucine play critical roles in muscle protein metabolism. Thus, how amino acid composition ultimately affects muscle protein accretion is not clear (assuming that a dietary protein contains the entire complement of essential amino acids).
In addition, the second study suggests that repeated meals of whey protein may be the ‘ideal’ way to promote an anabolic state. It should be noted that the feeding pattern (13 meals every 20 minutes for four hours) is not a typical of ‘real-life’ eating. However, the evidence does suggest that multiple small feedings is superior to a single bolus feeding. This is likely due to the pattern of digestion. And lastly, casein and whey proteins are treated and metabolized differently with a single feeding of casein producing greater gains in protein accretion than the same sized feeding of whey.
On the other hand, a recent investigation showed no differences in the anabolic effects of whey or casein. Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. They discovered that the Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (approximately 10-15%). Thus, the acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.(1)
At least from this limited data, one can reasonably conclude that casein protein as a sole protein source (versus whey) is either more anabolic or not different. What this means in a practical sense is not entirely known. However, one could speculate that if you were to consume a single protein source for gaining muscle mass, casein may be preferable over whey.
One last note regarding dietary protein; it should be noted that there is no evidence that consuming a diet high in protein has any adverse effects. (4, 5)
1. S. M. Phillips et al., Resistance-training-induced adaptations in skeletal muscle protein turnover in the fed state. Can J Physiol Pharmacol 80, 1045-53 (Nov, 2002).
2. Y. Boirie et al., Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 94, 14930-5 (Dec 23, 1997).
3. M. Dangin et al., The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 280, E340-8 (Feb, 2001).
4. W. F. Martin, L. E. Armstrong, N. R. Rodriguez, Dietary protein intake and renal function. Nutr Metab (Lond) 2, 25 (Sep 20, 2005).
5. J. R. Poortmans, O. Dellalieux, Do regular high protein diets have potential health risks on kidney function in athletes? Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 10, 28-38 (Mar, 2000).
< Message edited by danmirage -- 8/28/2006 7:33:11 AM >
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 8/28/2006 10:40:03 AM
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sied1922
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"when they looked at the ‘net leucine balance’ over the 7-hour time period after ingestion, casein ingestion resulted in a significantly higher net balance (i.e., post-feeding protein deposition was greater)."
i would think its much more difficult to get the amount of protien need to gain mass because casien is digested slower and would also make you want to eat less and that could effect your intake of overall nutrience throughout the day. i always thought it would be best to consume a form fo casien in your last meal beacuse it is digested slower.
what do you think?
also i couldn't understand was the pourpose of this study to find which protien is best to remain in an anabolic state or was it to specifically target how which type protien is used and stays in the body the longest?
"One last note regarding dietary protein; it should be noted that there is no evidence that consuming a diet high in protein has any adverse effects."
your so right about that, i hate it when i read, and hear people say that high protein diets can harm kidneys. i doubt most of the people who say that know that protien is an active trasport, which seems to be a logical bases for there argument but it gets very annoying. i think i read some where there when you consume more protein you body responds to it by actully proccsing the protein more effictly. i'll try to post a link when if find it.
< Message edited by sied1922 -- 8/28/2006 10:45:06 AM >
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 8/28/2006 11:24:10 AM
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danmirage
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quote:
i would think its much more difficult to get the amount of protien need to gain mass because casien is digested slower
-- differences in digestion and absorption translate into differences in protein metabolism
-- the digestion rate of protein may be more important than other factors
-- whole body protein breakdown was inhibited by 34% by casein ingestion but not by whey
-- whey protein ingestion stimulated protein synthesis by 68% while casein stimulated protein synthesis to a lesser extent (+31%)
-- yet 7-hour looking at post-feeding, overall protein deposition (muscle gain) was greater with casein
-- a fast absorbing protein such as whey stimulates protein synthesis tremendously but a large part of the protein is also oxidized
-- Reapeated smaller servings of Whey was thought to be the most effective
However, a mixture of whey and casein may be the best of both worlds...and of course selecting specific times as per our normal "casein before bed" thinking. Any time you are going to go a while without a good meal...casein.
Keep in mind that these were not compared to consuming whole food meals...which I would rate along side casein..except the whole food meals have a more complete nutrient/vitamin/mineral/antioxidant/ etc profile...
quote:
casien is digested slower and would also make you want to eat less and that could effect your intake of overall nutrience throughout the day.
I don't see that it would lead to me feeling like eating less. Its only a protein. Processed protein does not lead to high satiety.
quote:
also i couldn't understand was the pourpose of this study to find which protien is best to remain in an anabolic state
Yes. It is believed that nitrogen balance and timing play a huge roll in staying anabolic...these studies help us strategize better in relation to stimulating protein synthesis and avoiding protein breakdown.
2 keys to larger muscles!
We see this...
Whey stimulates greater protein synthesis ..but it does not prevent prolonged muscle breakdown
Casein prevents muscle breakdown and leads to greater overall protein deposition but does not cause as high an immediate protein synthesis as whey, though there is still immediate protein synthesis
Frequent smaller servings of whey causes a similar response to one time casein consumption
< Message edited by danmirage -- 8/28/2006 11:28:33 AM >
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(in reply to sied1922)
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 8/28/2006 11:39:48 AM
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sied1922
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"Keep in mind that these were not compared to consuming whole food meals...which I would rate along side casein..except the whole food meals have a more complete nutrient/vitamin/mineral/antioxidant/ etc profile... "
i see so foods such as meat would also render a high net leucine, or dose this only apply to foods such as milk and cheese ?
also do you think you would get a better result if you drank a shake which contained a high amount of casien or if you adds foods that contained casien to your last meal?
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 8/28/2006 1:57:41 PM
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danmirage
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You are a bit off the significance of these things...
Leucine balance is a measure of whole body anabolism.
Meaning if total luecine increases, we believe there is a net gain in muscle and an anabolic state.
This happens not simply because there was casein or leucine present or introduced to the system, but because the nutrients were made available to the body gradually...which is more in line with how the body might need them.
So, it is not the presence of high amounts of leucine or of casein..but nutrients being released slowly.
"Our data demonstrate that the rate of absorption of a high biological value dietary nitrogen source affects postprandial leucine deposition independently of amino acid composition."
A complete meal with whole foods would release nutrients slowly.
A protein shake consumed with fiber and fats would release nutrients slowly.
A protein shake containing casein would release nutrients more slowly than whey alone.
Frequent smaller servings of whey would mimic the slow release of nutrients.
We don't always necessrily want a slow release, such as pre, during and post workout, or first thing AM.
We have not compared the overall net muscle response to frequent smaller servings of whey very thouroughly. The effect of immediate high protein synthesis may lead to greater overall muscle mass.
This study was over a 7 hour period feeding only 30grams of protein!
Not a realistic application. A bodybuilder would likely have had 3 servings of 30-50 grams of protein in that time..including meals and shakes.
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(in reply to sied1922)
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 8/28/2006 3:39:42 PM
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sied1922
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i get it now, thanks for the clarification dan .
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 8/28/2006 4:51:22 PM
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sied1922
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so would it be better if you take in faster protine from an insul stand point? and by faster protien do you mean whey?
***i sound like such a nerd
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 8/28/2006 5:15:32 PM
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danmirage
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Well, post workout we usually get carbs...and they raise the insulin.
If we are cutting and we choose to only use whey protein...the insulin rise is not that great...and as noted...the effect of different absorption rates all have benefits...
The idea of any of this information is to apply certain principals over time and see their result.
There is still much we need to learn about muscle growth in a research setting..but you also have to find what works specifically for you! Genetics, etc all cause slight variations in response.
< Message edited by danmirage -- 8/28/2006 5:29:58 PM >
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(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 8/28/2006 6:02:56 PM
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sied1922
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ya i'm gona be adding some fore of casien in or after my dinner see if i get better results thanks dan
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 9/10/2006 9:23:50 AM
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danmirage
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I am posting this elsewhere..but I want to also put it here:
In another thread we were discussing casein.
Some references to cautionary findings in science came up and I realized that many people here use casein proteins and some people use it exclusively. Here is the quick and dirty and some guidelines.
In Dr. Campbell's research he...
"found that rats given a brief initial exposure to aflatoxin, a carcinogen produced by mold growth, tended to develop liver cancer when fed casein, the main protein to milk." this lead him to further research the effect of casein ingestion and cancer proliferation. He found that the threshold amount of casein required for switching on tumor growth averaged around 10 percent of the diet.
So there is a good guideline.
Dr. Campbell finds that the danger area is when casein reaches around 10% of the total diet.
For me, at 3000 calories that would be 300 calories or 75 grams of casein protein.
About 80% of the protein in milk is casein which is about 7 grams of casein per cup.
I am never likely to consume 75 grams in a day! However, I know that a lot of the BBs do use it exclusively and/or use it in excess of this!
It is important to note that this research was done on pre-infected rats.
However, what this does tell us is that the diet can have a profound effect on promotion of tumors.
You might ask yourself why we have so much cancer today...liver, colo-rectal, breast, prostate..etc and if you can avoid it.
Here is a link to the actual studies by Dr Campbell.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/cubby.fcgi?call=00Bq5Yjwhfo7We7qO2MUifjiDbiXEJ8BHGVhUBMDpRBh&callpath=0px7TgNZTgXrG1GSyRk1-AoN1aWeszbUcaFV
He also released a book called The China Study with plenty of cautionary comments on diet. (that is a link if you want to look it over.)
< Message edited by danmirage -- 9/10/2006 9:26:55 AM >
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(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 9/11/2006 8:11:08 AM
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Coop
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When they are talking about "Whey" do they specify what type of whey it is? Isolate, concentrate? IN which those two types have a significant amount of types, when speaking of different types can that have an impact of absorption and anabolic effects on the body? I know the type is more the prcess in which it is made, but things are lost during these process's or possibly condensed.
The same also goes for Caesin, as there are seveal types of caesin.
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(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 9/11/2006 12:40:33 PM
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danmirage
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quote:
isnt it quite possible that absorbtion rates of isolates may be better or worse than concentrates?
To my knowledge there is no significant difference in the absorption rate of isolate vs. concentrate.
The whey proteins used in sports nutrition usually contain protein in a range of 70 to 90 percent or more. Those that range from 70 to 89 percent are classified as whey protein concentrate. A concentration of 80 percent is usually the standard used in most WHEY CONCENTRATE supplement products. Whey with a protein content of 90 percent or higher is classified as whey protein isolate. The higher the concentration of protein, the lower the fat and lactose content, so WHEY ISOLATE obviously has a higher protein content with less fat and lactose than WHEY CONCENTRATE. This would imply that Concentrate would absorb at a slightly slower rate. however this difference is very minor.
Hydrosolate would be faster still than these but the difference is very minor compared to casein.
The caseins are slightly different as well but the difference in absorption rates of all of the caseins when compared is, again so very minor.
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(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 9/12/2006 9:36:43 AM
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Stillseeingreen
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Ok, so if I wanted to drink protein maybe once or twice throughout the day the slow digesting casein is better for that?
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RE: What is better - Casein or Whey Protein? - 9/12/2006 10:43:09 AM
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danmirage
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The question you have to ask yourself is, "what do I want to accomplish?"
If you are eating every three hours...then you will be getting what you need!
In this study the subjects were basically ONLY fed the protein (otherwise they ate nothing for the 7 hours!)...and what we learned was...
Whey stimulates greater protein synthesis (muscle growth) ..but it does not prevent prolonged muscle breakdown
Casein prevents muscle breakdown and leads to greater overall protein deposition (muscle growth) but does not cause as high an immediate protein synthesis as whey, though there is still immediate protein synthesis
Frequent smaller servings of whey causes a similar response to one time casein consumption
The faster protein (whey) intakes cause a rise in insulin...which the slower do not...insulin being anabolic.
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to Stillseeingreen)
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