What's the point of HST training??

ORIGINAL: coldfire
The point of "blanket routines" is to give you a reference point which might fit you and provide some progress, after which you should be able to apply the same principles, and what you learned, and to write your own routine which fits you.

That's why most blanket routines' targetted audience is beginners/low level intermediates. Some are good, some are not.

People with years of experience running the same type of routine, have no experience at all, or at least basic understanding of what they are doing.

 
IMO that's the biggest misconception with HST, HST is not a program, it's basically a set of principle rules.. that if applied will work...

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
It's the best way forward.

Everyone can draw conclusions relative to their own body by following these set routines, but the idea is to cherrypick the methods in these routines which are most beneficial, and of course, those that are not.
... etc. ...

I really wish more of your posts were more substantive, like this one. Almost all of your other posts on the forum break down to "This is all nonsense, I know better than everyone. All I say is gospel, but I can't be bothered to share my inspired, enlightened thoughts or the reasoning that went into my conclusions. But you can tell how big and smart and experienced I am by my haughty attitude. Gosh, taking care of the rabble is such a bother."

Like I said, this post is better. But I have to agree with smoundzou in wondering if you actually know much about HST. Where is this one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter routine that you are referring to? Which of the HST principles do you find lacking?

NROL is a beginners guide...

And the cover reads "Ten unique programs for FAT LOSS, MUSCLE GAIN and STRENGTH IMPROVEMENT for beginners and elite lifters".

theres no such thing as training specifically for hypertophy

Well then, let's go share your discovery and turn the whole bodybuilding world on its head!

ORIGINAL: jheft

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
It's the best way forward.

Everyone can draw conclusions relative to their own body by following these set routines, but the idea is to cherrypick the methods in these routines which are most beneficial, and of course, those that are not.
... etc. ...

I really wish more of your posts were more substantive, like this one. Almost all of your other posts on the forum break down to "This is all nonsense, I know better than everyone. All I say is gospel, but I can't be bothered to share my inspired, enlightened thoughts or the reasoning that went into my conclusions. But you can tell how big and smart and experienced I am by my haughty attitude. Gosh, taking care of the rabble is such a bother."

Like I said, this post is better. But I have to agree with smoundzou in wondering if you actually know much about HST. Where is this one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter routine that you are referring to? Which of the HST principles do you find lacking?

NROL is a beginners guide...

And the cover reads "Ten unique programs for FAT LOSS, MUSCLE GAIN and STRENGTH IMPROVEMENT for beginners and elite lifters".

theres no such thing as training specifically for hypertophy

Well then, let's go share your discovery and turn the whole bodybuilding world on its head!

Actually, he is right. No one really knows how to train for hypertrohpy. All people train for some performance level and hope it will bring hypertrohpy as a side effect.

And you know the cover can read anything you want. Maybe this book will clean your room for you too. Any advances/elite athelete is a special case and no one can write any routine for him without knowing his traininng history and many other details.

HST has good principles, but anyway you look at it, you will stall with it, and will need to apply something different. More stress, periodization, etc...

jheft..

I'm not sure why you suggest that I'm trying to break ground.

No-one said I know better than everyone else. I'm entitled to my opinion and I'll voice my opinion.  If you don't like it don't read it.  I'm not concerned of which comments you find substantive and which you don't. 

You can take it or leave it.

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

Bills Starrs 5x5 is a bare bones routine.  HST is not. NROL is a beginners guide and theres no such thing as training specifically for hypertophy, hence my reference to the name.  If you don't feel something deserves your time, then do something else.
quote]

Bill Starrs, NROL and HST all three employ basic principles of weight training.. that was my point.... regarding training specifically for hypertrophy.. As long as basic principles are met in a routine and a person is getting an adequate surplus of calories.. I guess we agree on this..

The fact the HST employs principles of progressive overload, compound movements and the like is totally irrelevant. 

The fact that HST does employ basic principals such as progressive load, compound movements and time under tension is totally relevant.. Those are basic principles that any good training program will have, regardless if cookie cutter or self made..

Re-read my post refferencing individual need.

I did read it, and I dont disagree.. but again, this goes back to basic principles of training.. the fact of the matter is, most of use to have the same needs as mentioned above.. I agree, not everyone can do deads or squat safely.. but most can, if properly taught..

Rest assured, the methods and combination of methods is not done by anyone, since it's suited to my own personal requirement, preferance and goal.  No-one is attempting to re-invent any wheel.  It's about fitting the wheel to the correct axle. 

All I can say is congratulation.. I'm glad the training methods you're using are working for you.. But I have to say, If it is working.. i'm more than confidant you're implementing the basic principles of training into your tailored program..

Maybe you missed my point....

No, you made your point very clear in your post.. and I addressed each individual comment with a response.. If you feel your training level is above doing a program with a set of basic, well established and proven fundamentals is above you, or you're at such an advanced level of training it's pointless.. so be it.. The training program i follow is as basic as it gets.. and I've had great results so far..

since we're on the topic.... you should post your training routine.. I'm sure some here might gain from it.

<message edited by smoundzou on Thursday, January 17, 2008 10:02 AM>

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

NROL is a beginners guide..
And the cover reads "Ten unique programs for FAT LOSS, MUSCLE GAIN and STRENGTH IMPROVEMENT for beginners and elite lifters".

I rest my case my impressionable friend.

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: jheft

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
It's the best way forward.

Everyone can draw conclusions relative to their own body by following these set routines, but the idea is to cherrypick the methods in these routines which are most beneficial, and of course, those that are not.
... etc. ...

I really wish more of your posts were more substantive, like this one. Almost all of your other posts on the forum break down to "This is all nonsense, I know better than everyone. All I say is gospel, but I can't be bothered to share my inspired, enlightened thoughts or the reasoning that went into my conclusions. But you can tell how big and smart and experienced I am by my haughty attitude. Gosh, taking care of the rabble is such a bother."

Like I said, this post is better. But I have to agree with smoundzou in wondering if you actually know much about HST. Where is this one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter routine that you are referring to? Which of the HST principles do you find lacking?

NROL is a beginners guide...

And the cover reads "Ten unique programs for FAT LOSS, MUSCLE GAIN and STRENGTH IMPROVEMENT for beginners and elite lifters".

theres no such thing as training specifically for hypertophy

Well then, let's go share your discovery and turn the whole bodybuilding world on its head!

Actually, he is right. No one really knows how to train for hypertrohpy. All people train for some performance level and hope it will bring hypertrohpy as a side effect.

And you know the cover can read anything you want. Maybe this book will clean your room for you too. Any advances/elite athelete is a special case and no one can write any routine for him without knowing his traininng history and many other details.

HST has good principles, but anyway you look at it, you will stall with it, and will need to apply something different. More stress, periodization, etc...

DIET..... any program, respected trainer, BBEr, Powerlifter.. what ever will emphasis this...

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

ORIGINAL: coldfire

ORIGINAL: jheft

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs
It's the best way forward.

Everyone can draw conclusions relative to their own body by following these set routines, but the idea is to cherrypick the methods in these routines which are most beneficial, and of course, those that are not.
... etc. ...

I really wish more of your posts were more substantive, like this one. Almost all of your other posts on the forum break down to "This is all nonsense, I know better than everyone. All I say is gospel, but I can't be bothered to share my inspired, enlightened thoughts or the reasoning that went into my conclusions. But you can tell how big and smart and experienced I am by my haughty attitude. Gosh, taking care of the rabble is such a bother."

Like I said, this post is better. But I have to agree with smoundzou in wondering if you actually know much about HST. Where is this one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter routine that you are referring to? Which of the HST principles do you find lacking?

NROL is a beginners guide...

And the cover reads "Ten unique programs for FAT LOSS, MUSCLE GAIN and STRENGTH IMPROVEMENT for beginners and elite lifters".

theres no such thing as training specifically for hypertophy

Well then, let's go share your discovery and turn the whole bodybuilding world on its head!

Actually, he is right. No one really knows how to train for hypertrohpy. All people train for some performance level and hope it will bring hypertrohpy as a side effect.

And you know the cover can read anything you want. Maybe this book will clean your room for you too. Any advances/elite athelete is a special case and no one can write any routine for him without knowing his traininng history and many other details.

HST has good principles, but anyway you look at it, you will stall with it, and will need to apply something different. More stress, periodization, etc...

DIET..... any program, respected trainer, BBEr, Powerlifter.. what ever will emphasis this...

We are discussing TRAINING here. Diet is assumed to be decent with any program.

In response to your comment:

Actually, he is right. No one really knows how to train for hypertrohpy. All people train for some performance level and hope it will bring hypertrohpy as a side effect.

 
My point being... Hypertrophy is directly linked to diet..and following basic principles of training... without diet, hypertrophy will not occur regardless of how good or bad the routine is..

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

It serves as a prime base of viral marketing to promote HSN Supplements.

This is your typical attitude - you don't feel like addressing the issue substantively, so you just throw out an ad hominem.

I rest my case my impressionable friend.

Now you're just being obtuse. What principles in the book stop applying when you become experienced? What specifically is wrong with the NROL routines for an intermediate or experienced lifter who is looking for something new?

Actually, he is right. No one really knows how to train for hypertrohpy. All people train for some performance level and hope it will bring hypertrohpy as a side effect.

It's not as if nobody has any idea. There is some research which is at least suggestive of what techniques produce greater hypertrophy and what produces more stregnth. There's a lot of gaps and fuzzy edges around the knowledge, but if nobody had any idea, we wouldn't see such a big difference between bodybuilders and strength athletes.

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

Strategic Deconditioning:
Is something all athletes us regardless of what they call it. Strategic Deconditioning is what allows a lifter to continue to make forward progress as opposed to stalling and possibly over-reaching.

Just a small note. Strategic decondition is not used by athletes. Athletes have deloading phases, which are actually the opposite. During these phases the fatigue decreases and the fitness increases.

Strategic decondioning is used for decreasing the fitness level. This allows further hypertrophy according to the author.

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

In response to your comment:

Actually, he is right. No one really knows how to train for hypertrohpy. All people train for some performance level and hope it will bring hypertrohpy as a side effect.

My point being... Hypertrophy is directly linked to diet..and following basic principles of training... without diet, hypertrophy will not occur regardless of how good or bad the routine is..

Agreed.

ORIGINAL: jheft

Actually, he is right. No one really knows how to train for hypertrohpy. All people train for some performance level and hope it will bring hypertrohpy as a side effect.

It's not as if nobody has any idea. There is some research which is at least suggestive of what techniques produce greater hypertrophy and what produces more stregnth. There's a lot of gaps and fuzzy edges around the knowledge, but if nobody had any idea, we wouldn't see such a big difference between bodybuilders and strength athletes.

Bodybuilders and strength athletes are not a good comparison. Strength athletes need to stay in a certain weight category, while bodybuilders always try to increase their weight.

You can compare two amateurs. One will "train for hypetrophy" and the other for strength (Both with a good diet), and check the results.

If you feel your training level is above doing a program with a set of basic, well established and proven fundamentals is above you, or you're at such an advanced level of training it's pointless.. so be it.. The training program i follow is as basic as it gets.. and I've had great results so far..

I'm not sure why you continue to run with the assumption that the training principles I follow are any different from anyone elses. "Method" is inclusive of many factors, including combination of movements, style of movement, grip right down to the time I may choose to workout.  Who else is likely to be running with the same program bearing in mind all of these factors? No-one.

Of course I use barbell, dumbbell compound movements following progressional overload to name a few, in the same way I've taken principles from powerlifting and strongman training.  I picked the barbell / dumbbell factors (or "bodybuilding" factors as some might call it)  from set blanket routines I followed when I was a beginner. 

Why are you assuming that I jumped into training with some mystical ground breaking routine?

I made it clear from the outset that people should make a conscious effort to absorb what is happening to enable them to cherrypick methods that work:

Everyone can draw conclusions relative to their own body by following these set routines, but the idea is to cherrypick the methods in these routines which are most beneficial, and of course,  those that are not.

The only point I was making is, if you're training succesfully, you're employing basic priciples into your routine..
 
FYI.. you never answered the questions.. Which training methods of HST do you dislike and why.. I responsed with several other questions you never answered.. regarding the principles HST follows.. I curious to your repsonse..
 

I don't like the training methods.  The majority of people who use HST are beginners who would grow from walking up a flight of stairs, evident by the fact they are following a "one workout suits all" routine, blind to their own individual need. The name of the routine itself is void.

In the case of the original poster, this may be applicable, but overall from the wider perspective it's not better than every other blanket routine out there regardless of how many undertrained people boast of thier outlandish gains.

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing