What's the point of HST training??

Well, it's difficult to say... but I'll try to give you a good estimatell

15's:   first week usally about 30 seconds rest, by the second week of 15's, I need a good minute

10's:
first week: same, 30seconds
Second week, anywhere from a 1 to 1.5 minutes

5's..
first week 1 minute:
Second week: never more than 2 minutes..
 
I just try to keep the rest to a minimum.. long enough to complete the next set.. and it also depends on how many sets I'm doing.. normally I'll do 2X15, 3X10 and 5X5

On the second week of any cycle.. 15/10/5.. if I stall I always stop before going to failure.. rest how ever long it takes and finish out the set.. the first cycle I went to failure on the 5's due to miscalculating and neglecting cluster and it really effected the cycle..

ORIGINAL: jheft

@smoundzou: What sort of rest times between sets and exercises do you think are effective with HST? In the past, I've been fairly lax about my rest times, but I think I could improve my results if I got a little religion on that... Then again, maybe it's not an important thing. After squats or deadlifts I feel like I really need to rest a long time so my heart doesn't explode on me, but maybe I can improve on that.

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

just wondering fox, what kind of workouts did you do to get that 305 max bench.  Thats currently what im going after is big numbers in the bench, squat, deadlift, and clean.  Ive been doin a 5x5 routine and was jus wondering what you did to get up that high.

18 yo
6'0" 208 lbs.
bulking

ORIGINAL: RollingStone

just wondering fox, what kind of workouts did you do to get that 305 max bench.  Thats currently what im going after is big numbers in the bench, squat, deadlift, and clean.  Ive been doin a 5x5 routine and was jus wondering what you did to get up that high.

My chest routine is pretty hardcore.  I work chest twice a week.

Usually i'll start my week (sunday) with chest.

Flatbench - warmup with a weight that is light obviously.  Then I pick a weight I can press up 10 times with perfect form.
Then I put more weight on and press it 8 to 6 times.
Then add more weight and my goal on the last set is to press it 6 times (the heaviest set)

^ On the heaviest set,  if i am hitting 6 reps, i make a mental note and add 5 lbs (2.5 lbs to each side) the following week on my heaviest set.  Even if I am unable to get 6 reps... that is ok.  4 is fine.  I just keep working week after week until my muscles have gotten used to the weight and I am able to do 6 reps with the heavy weight.. and then i raise the weight again another 5 lbs.

Currently though.. i'm somewhat stuck at 255 which I can lift about 4 or 5 times until the spotter must assist just a bit.

Following flatbench is 2 or 3 sets of decline with heavy weight of course.

Then I move onto incline with dumbells - 2 to 3 sets. heavy weight, for me it's anywhere between 85 and 100 lb dumbells

Then dumbell flys, but on the fly's when i bring the weights up... my arms are curved like i'm hugging a tree, and i twist my wrists so my pinky's are right against eachother and squeeze my chest together.

following this is a nice set of pushups, and i'm done.

that's my bench routine, and every month and a half or so.. I max out just for fun.



Also wanted to mention that the second time I work chest in the week, it's with medium to light weight for more reps.  I try to keep the muscles guessing. 

My name is FOX.... and I approve this message.

What's the point of HST training??

It serves as a prime base of viral marketing to promote HSN Supplements.

Regardless, the website is free, the board is very informative and HST is proven training method for hypertrophy.. If they market protein on the side and it keeps their website up and running who cares.. ..
 
I'm fairly sure you knew that wasn't the question he was asking....  If you don't like the program, just say so and participate in the thread by stating your reasoning for not liking it..
 
 

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

What's the point of HST training??

It serves as a prime base of viral marketing to promote HSN Supplements.

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: smoundzou

HST is hypertrophy specific training. Meaning it is a mass based program and is meant for growth.  Although some do experience strength gains the object of the program is hypertrophy..

Surely the last phase where each set has only five reps is effectively strength training?

Commitment is doing what you said you would do after the feeling you said it in has past.

There isn't a hard and fast line between rep ranges for strength and hypertrophy; its a spectrum. The point of lower reps toward the end of an HST cycle is to accommodate ever increasing weights, and that continual progression in weight is part of what stimulates hypertrophy.

I don't like the training methods.  The majority of people who use HST are beginners who would grow from walking up a flight of stairs, evident by the fact they are following a "one workout suits all" routine, blind to their own individual need. The name of the routine itself is void.

In the case of the original poster, this may be applicable, but overall from the wider perspective it's not better than every other blanket routine out there regardless of how many undertrained people boast of thier outlandish gains.

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

I don't like the training methods.  The majority of people who use HST are beginners who would grow from walking up a flight of stairs, evident by the fact they are following a "one workout suits all" routine, blind to their own individual need. The name of the routine itself is void.

In the case of the original poster, this may be applicable, but overall from the wider perspective it's not better than every other blanket routine out there regardless of how many undertrained people boast of thier outlandish gains.

 
I agree with you about the "blanket routine" statement.  I've actually been trying to work on designing my own hypertrophy routine based on what I've learned in the past year. For example, I respond well to higher reps on squats, but with the occasional low rep days; low rep deads all the time; varying reps for bench press and overhead press; low reps for rowing; pull-ups and chin-ups I do high reps, high reps for lunges; etc...
 
Do you have any pointers about how to go about making your own routine designed to suit the individual needs?

72

ORIGINAL: brihead301

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

I don't like the training methods.  The majority of people who use HST are beginners who would grow from walking up a flight of stairs, evident by the fact they are following a "one workout suits all" routine, blind to their own individual need. The name of the routine itself is void.

In the case of the original poster, this may be applicable, but overall from the wider perspective it's not better than every other blanket routine out there regardless of how many undertrained people boast of thier outlandish gains.

I agree with you about the "blanket routine" statement.  I've actually been trying to work on designing my own hypertrophy routine based on what I've learned in the past year. For example, I respond well to higher reps on squats, but with the occasional low rep days; low rep deads all the time; varying reps for bench press and overhead press; low reps for rowing; pull-ups and chin-ups I do high reps, high reps for lunges; etc...

Do you have any pointers about how to go about making your own routine designed to suit the individual needs?

It's the best way forward.

Everyone can draw conclusions relative to their own body by following these set routines, but the idea is to cherrypick the methods in these routines which are most beneficial, and of course,  those that are not. 

If you note response from a particular method or change, ask yourself if the same principles / factors can be applied elsewhere. i.e Instead of relishing in the fact that you may have found that higher reps make your chest grow, start thinking about applying this method to another movement / muscle which is not too indifferent in size and function from the chest. i.e Would your shoulders also benefit from the same approach?

Individual need and response is obviously going to vary from each person to the next, so theres no concrete advice I can give with regards to setting up a routine as there are too many factors involved which will determine the structure of the persons training.

These factors might include:

Response, inclusive of growth, strength and overtraining (CNS response).

Imbalance; muscular and or skeletal. The persons posture / spine may be innapropriate if not dangerous to hold a heavy load on the back.  Their shoulders may be protracted emphasising this problem and limiting the flexibility required to perform other movements safely and efficiently, though underdeveloped muscle or improper bone growth.  The person may have to work for years before they can perform a deadlift safely.  Some may never be in a state to deadlift......etc

It really depends upon the individuals need.

It's quite laughable when you you consider how many different possibilities of factors there are, yet so many people follow a set "one size fits all" protocol.  Reffering to the initial point of response and overtraining, people have varying lifestyles.  Some people might work on a building site lifting loads day in day out, whilst the next person sits at a computer all day.  The construction worker may overtrain after only a few weeks training 1-2 times per week, whilst the office worker can thrash out 5 days per week with the same intensity....but with a bent upper back...

Ranting further...

How many blanket routines offer an alternative less / more intensive versions of the program based upon daily, rate of non-training physical activity, sectioning into "inactive" / "moderately active" / "very active"? (which is all it takes for a more effective solution).  Answer: none.

As mentioned I consider routines such as HST as nothing more than a starting point, for the reasons mentioned above and more.  There shouldn't ever be an excuse for an experienced person to resort to such routines. After the initial growth spurt of "beginners gains" people should switch on and start absoring methods enabling them to peice together the beneficial principles into a whole bigger picture; an effective, individual tailoried routine, (without using the rule as an excuse to slack off).

There's too many people who have years of experience under their belts still running with this type of routine.  It's ignorance at it's best and quite typical of us as a race.  We question nothing and just roll on with the program eating whatever is held to our face.

I hope I answered your question someone in there.

Nice post.  I think that's exactly the reason why many people, including myself, follow pre-made routines.  It's just simply not a simple task trying to figure out what works best.  I know that I feel like I got a great workout by doing higher rep squats, but do lower rep squats make me grow more or less then higher rep squats?  I have no idea what caused the growth, but I know something did.  High reps just make me feel sore due to the lactic acid build-up, so it makes me feel like I got a great workout.  Yes, the volume was higher, but the intensity (weight used) was lower during the high rep workout.  So after a few months of trying both high and low reps, my legs grew, but what exactly made them grow more? I dunno.
 
This is the reason why "blanket routines" that use varying rep ranges such as NROL and HST are basically good for most people.  I still have a lot to learn though about exactly what my body responds to the best so I can develop my own personalized routine.  I still don't think I know enough yet to make those assumptions, which is why I'm sticking to the premade routine, NROL, until I can figure it out. 
 
But I like your guidelines.  They're very useful, although it still doesn't let me determine exactly what will work the best for me.  I still don't know my own body well enough yet.

72

I'll try to address your reply...
 
You don't like the training methods?
 
Which training methods are you referring to because most of the methods used by HST are principle methods that have been utilized by almost every type of training program conceived.
 
Progressive Load:
Many studies have concluded that using a progressive load technique is without a doubt key to hypertrophy and strength. This point isn't even up for debate..
 
Strategic Deconditioning: 
Is something all athletes us regardless of what they call it.  Strategic Deconditioning is what allows a lifter to continue to make forward progress as opposed to stalling and possibly over-reaching. 
 
Compound Exercises:
Anyone who lifts already knows the importance of compound exercises.. I'll say no more.
 
Progressively Adjusting reps to accommodate Progressive Load:
without a doubt, the absolute best way a trainee can continue training without over-reaching or making no progress and stalling. It's a very simple way to keep moving forward with progress with minimal zigzagging.
 
Frequency in training:  A muscle doesn't need 5-7 days of rehab in order to trained again. A muscle can be trained in some cases with as little as 36 hours rest.  One of the biggest misconceptions in weight training today.. 90% due to the supplement magazine and steroid using pro's...
 
Replies to your statements:
 
The majority of people who use HST are beginners who would grow from walking up a flight of stairs, evident by the fact they are following a "one workout suits all" routine, blind to their own individual need...
 
I'm not sure how you've reached this conclusion.. I'm assuming because most people on HST utilize a full body?  If that's your reasoning for thinking it's a beginners program, that only demonstrates you've been reading too many issues of Muscle & fitness.  
 
In regards to the routine being, "one workouts suits all, blind to their own individual needs".....
That just proves you have very little understanding of HST.  HST can be implemented into any type of routine.  It's not limited to full body.  
 
The name of the routine itself is void?
 
How does the name of a program have anything to do with the results that can be gained from it?   This statement doesn't even deserve the time I've spent typing this paragraph.. 
 
In the case of the original poster, this may be applicable, but overall from the wider perspective it's not better than every other blanket routine out there regardless of how many undertrained people boast of thier outlandish gains.
 
No one ever said it was better than any program.  the only thing said was if you follow the program, meaning apply the principals of the program to your routine, eat above maintainace calories, the program will work for 99% of most trainees.. beginner, intermediate and advanced. 
 
There's absolutely nothing wrong with following a " cookie cutter program" if it works. Bill Starr, Mark Ripptoe, NROL, just to name a few... work very well.. If it's been successfull for others, chances are it will be successful for you..
 
What ever you're doing at the moment, I'm sure it's been done in the past, meaning you haven't re-invented any wheel.

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

I don't like the training methods.  The majority of people who use HST are beginners who would grow from walking up a flight of stairs, evident by the fact they are following a "one workout suits all" routine, blind to their own individual need. The name of the routine itself is void.

In the case of the original poster, this may be applicable, but overall from the wider perspective it's not better than every other blanket routine out there regardless of how many undertrained people boast of thier outlandish gains.

There is never enough time to do everything, but there is always enough time to do the most important thing

 

ORIGINAL: brihead301

Nice post.  I think that's exactly the reason why many people, including myself, follow pre-made routines.  It's just simply not a simple task trying to figure out what works best.  I know that I feel like I got a great workout by doing higher rep squats, but do lower rep squats make me grow more or less then higher rep squats?  I have no idea what caused the growth, but I know something did.  High reps just make me feel sore due to the lactic acid build-up, so it makes me feel like I got a great workout.  Yes, the volume was higher, but the intensity (weight used) was lower during the high rep workout.  So after a few months of trying both high and low reps, my legs grew, but what exactly made them grow more? I dunno.

This is the reason why "blanket routines" that use varying rep ranges such as NROL and HST are basically good for most people.  I still have a lot to learn though about exactly what my body responds to the best so I can develop my own personalized routine.  I still don't think I know enough yet to make those assumptions, which is why I'm sticking to the premade routine, NROL, until I can figure it out. 

But I like your guidelines.  They're very useful, although it still doesn't let me determine exactly what will work the best for me.  I still don't know my own body well enough yet.

An excellant response.

I think often times the reason progress stalls after the beginner gains, is because people think they figured "training" out, after the imitail growth sprut. And then go on to formulate their own routines that are not based on anything other than they want big X, and the grew by doing Y. Oh and don't forget to throw in 2 more bicept exercises, because I want big arms and it seems as though the bicep has already adapted to doing just 3 bicep exerises.

They are not ging to explore the possibilites that are out their. More than likely they will hold on to various rules they learned their first 3 months of training. I want mass so that means rep range 8-12 and the like.

Blanket routines (if they are good ones) are usefull, and dare I say necessary until one is a true intermedate or experianced lifter.

Blanket routines teach methods like progressive overload, and how to impliment it. You learn by the doing. You track your progress and see what works. Sometimes one routine will cause your strength to shoot up, other ones will make your body blow up. That might be the exact oppiosite response of your training partner.

Blanket routines also teach different methods for spreading out your work load with in aceptable peramiters. No too much not to little.

Otherwise, how can you ever figure out what really works for you.

But Kingkebabs, I do agree with what you are saying and your post was a good one, I just think slightly missleading for the beginner.

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

ORIGINAL: brihead301

ORIGINAL: kingkebabs

I don't like the training methods. The majority of people who use HST are beginners who would grow from walking up a flight of stairs, evident by the fact they are following a "one workout suits all" routine, blind to their own individual need. The name of the routine itself is void.

In the case of the original poster, this may be applicable, but overall from the wider perspective it's not better than every other blanket routine out there regardless of how many undertrained people boast of thier outlandish gains.

I agree with you about the "blanket routine" statement. I've actually been trying to work on designing my own hypertrophy routine based on what I've learned in the past year. For example, I respond well to higher reps on squats, but with the occasional low rep days; low rep deads all the time; varying reps for bench press and overhead press; low reps for rowing; pull-ups and chin-ups I do high reps, high reps for lunges; etc...

Do you have any pointers about how to go about making your own routine designed to suit the individual needs?

It's the best way forward.

Everyone can draw conclusions relative to their own body by following these set routines, but the idea is to cherrypick the methods in these routines which are most beneficial, and of course, those that are not.

If you note response from a particular method or change, ask yourself if the same principles / factors can be applied elsewhere. i.e Instead of relishing in the fact that you may have found that higher reps make your chest grow, start thinking about applying this method to another movement / muscle which is not too indifferent in size and function from the chest. i.e Would your shoulders also benefit from the same approach?

Individual need and response is obviously going to vary from each person to the next, so theres no concrete advice I can give with regards to setting up a routine as there are too many factors involved which will determine the structure of the persons training.

These factors might include:

Response, inclusive of growth, strength and overtraining (CNS response).

Imbalance; muscular and or skeletal. The persons posture / spine may be innapropriate if not dangerous to hold a heavy load on the back. Their shoulders may be protracted emphasising this problem and limiting the flexibility required to perform other movements safely and efficiently, though underdeveloped muscle or improper bone growth. The person may have to work for years before they can perform a deadlift safely. Some may never be in a state to deadlift......etc

It really depends upon the individuals need.

It's quite laughable when you you consider how many different possibilities of factors there are, yet so many people follow a set "one size fits all" protocol. Reffering to the initial point of response and overtraining, people have varying lifestyles. Some people might work on a building site lifting loads day in day out, whilst the next person sits at a computer all day. The construction worker may overtrain after only a few weeks training 1-2 times per week, whilst the office worker can thrash out 5 days per week with the same intensity....but with a bent upper back...

Ranting further...

How many blanket routines offer an alternative less / more intensive versions of the program based upon daily, rate of non-training physical activity, sectioning into "inactive" / "moderately active" / "very active"? (which is all it takes for a more effective solution). Answer: none.

As mentioned I consider routines such as HST as nothing more than a starting point, for the reasons mentioned above and more. There shouldn't ever be an excuse for an experienced person to resort to such routines. After the initial growth spurt of "beginners gains" people should switch on and start absoring methods enabling them to peice together the beneficial principles into a whole bigger picture; an effective, individual tailoried routine, (without using the rule as an excuse to slack off).

There's too many people who have years of experience under their belts still running with this type of routine. It's ignorance at it's best and quite typical of us as a race. We question nothing and just roll on with the program eating whatever is held to our face.

I hope I answered your question someone in there.

The point of "blanket routines" is to give you a reference point which might fit you and provide some progress, after which you should be able to apply the same principles, and what you learned, and to write your own routine which fits you.

That's why most blanket routines' targetted audience is beginners/low level intermediates. Some are good, some are not.

People with years of experience running the same type of routine, have no experience at all, or at least basic understanding of what they are doing.

smoundzou....


Bills Starrs 5x5 is a bare bones routine.  HST is not. NROL is a beginners guide and theres no such thing as training specifically for hypertophy, hence my reference to the name.  If you don't feel something deserves your time, then do something else.

The fact the HST employs principles of progressive overload, compound movements and the like is totally irrelevant. 

Re-read my post refferencing individual need.

Rest assured, the methods and combination of methods is not done by anyone, since it's suited to my own personal requirement, preferance and goal.  No-one is attempting to re-invent any wheel.  It's about fitting the wheel to the correct axle. 

Maybe you missed my point....