Theory of doing cardio only after an intense strength training session
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Theory of doing cardio only after an intense strength t... - 6/30/2006 10:38:14 PM
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gunshowkeough
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Nick Keough
Cardio and strength training: what order to perform them in.
6/31/06
Why you should do Cardio after Strength Training
Why should you always do intense strength training before cardio? There is a reason for this that involves in depth analysis of cellular respiration in the muscles.
Many athletes are not sure while their training if they should do their cardio workout first before strength training or after strength training. The answer to this issue is that Cardio should always be done after any type of strength training.
Before I go into the justifications of my claim, let me explain to you some of the mechanisms of cellular respiration in the muscle cells.
Within our muscle cells, there are membrane bound organelles called mitochondria. These organelles allow us to perform work with a molecule called ATP. The process of utilizing this molecule for energy to perform work is called cellular respiration. There are two different metabolic pathways in which ATP is generated and used for energy. There is Aerobic respiration and Anaerobic glycolysis. Aerobic literally means “with oxygen”. During Aerobic respiration, glucose is broken down completely into carbon dioxide and water. Some of this energy that is released as the bonds are broken is captured in the bonds of ATP molecules. (Marieb 166). Aerobic respiration provides a rich ATP harvest, ( 36 ATP molecules per one glucose unit to be exact). This process is slow and requires continuous supply of oxygen and nutrient fuels to keep the muscle active. (166).
What about the short burst interval training that requires 100 percent strength for short periods of time of muscle activity. There is a high powered molecule called Creatine Phosphate (CP) that donates a phosphate molecule to ADP to convert it into ATP so it can be used for energy. This process is called Anaerobic ( without oxygen) glycolysis. Although 5 times more CP is stored in our muscle cells compared to ATP, Creatine stores are depleted extremely quickly (within 20 seconds) (166).
Why is Anaerobic glycolysis run out so much faster then Aerobic respiration? The reason why is that Oxygen can replenish ATP molecules and no other element can keep the cellular respiration cycle going. The first steps in breaking down glucose molecules happen through a pathway called glycolysis, which does not utilize oxygen. During glycolysis, glucose is broken down into pyruvic acid while small amounts of energy are captured in ATP bonds. As long as Oxygen is part of this equation, the pyruvic acid then enters the aerobic pathway to produce ATP. (166). During an intense lift or exercise, Oxygen is too slow to meet the demands of the work being done. When this happens, pyruvic acid is then converted to lactic acid. Lactic acid contributes to muscle soreness and muscle fatigue. (166). Lactic acid creates an acidic environment in which muscle cells do not have the ability to work as efficiently with oxygen. The muscle fatigues because of lactic acid from oxygen debt.
What does all of this complex biology have to do with exercising? Well it has a lot to do with my theory that I proposed about not doing Cardiovascular activity before strength training. While someone is engaged in Cardiovascular activity, Aerobic respiration is occurring and the muscle cells are working efficiently. At some point in time during this activity, people can get short of breath. This is a sign that the muscle cells are not getting enough oxygen to perform the work of a cardiovascular activity. The time in which one becomes fatigued varies from certain people with different fitness levels. When someone is disengaged from cardiovascular activity, they become short of breath if they worked their muscle cells to exhaustion. Being short of breath means that the muscle cells require oxygen to restore the cellular respiration cycle. This also means that there is Lactic acid accumulation within the cells. The acidic environment that lactic acid produces a situation where muscles can not go through cellular respiration efficiently.
If one starts doing strength training right after cardio, they are obviously not going to perform well. During weight lifting of any kind, Cellular respiration only occurs through Anaerobic glycolysis. Through this pathway, the muscle cell is not able to get rid of the lactic acid due to the lack of oxygen.
I used to do cardio before lifting. I thought it was beneficial because it got the blood flowing and got the muscle cells active. I was completely wrong by thinking this. During my workouts after doing cardio, I would find myself feeling like I have no energy to do the lifts that I want to. I did not have the stamina because the lactic acid could not be transferred back into useful energy without oxygen. I was not getting adequate amount of oxygen because my lifts only last 20-30 seconds which in this case Anaerobic glycolysis occurs and oxygen can not keep up with the demands that I put on my muscles.
The process of these two pathways of cellular respiration truly support the theory of not doing cardio before performing any type of heavy strength training.
Reference
Marieb, Elaine. Essentials of Human Anatomy and Physiology. 5th. California: 1997.
< Message edited by gunshowkeough -- 1/2/2007 1:35:06 PM >
_____________________________
body weight: 207
Bench: 355
Squat: 375
Deadlift:475
power clean:225
push press:255
snatch: 160
squat clean and jerk: 215
pull ups: 16
dips:26
handstand push ups:11
overhead squat: 135 8 rep max
sumo dl high pulls: 205
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 7/2/2006 7:54:30 AM
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gunshowkeough
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Thanks for that correction. I was writing that late at night. i appreciate you reading over my writing.
_____________________________
body weight: 207
Bench: 355
Squat: 375
Deadlift:475
power clean:225
push press:255
snatch: 160
squat clean and jerk: 215
pull ups: 16
dips:26
handstand push ups:11
overhead squat: 135 8 rep max
sumo dl high pulls: 205
(in reply to Old Navy)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 7/2/2006 6:16:15 PM
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gunshowkeough
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Old navy,
I checked out your site and saw your accomplishments. Those are quite respectable. Your an inspiration for people to stay in shape for the rest of their lives. I am only 19 right now but I plan to lift for the rest of my life.
< Message edited by gunshowkeough -- 7/5/2006 9:25:55 AM >
_____________________________
body weight: 207
Bench: 355
Squat: 375
Deadlift:475
power clean:225
push press:255
snatch: 160
squat clean and jerk: 215
pull ups: 16
dips:26
handstand push ups:11
overhead squat: 135 8 rep max
sumo dl high pulls: 205
(in reply to Old Navy)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 11/20/2006 1:50:28 PM
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RomeoCiaffoneo
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i agree that if you lift directly after cardio, thats bad news. but if you do cardio in the morning and lift at night, with atleast 8-10 hrs between, thats also beneficial.
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(in reply to Old Navy)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 12/3/2006 11:59:46 PM
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gunshowkeough
Posts: 129
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Yea your right Romeo. If you have adequate recovery, thats fine. Most bodybuilders when their cutting do cardio in the morning. If you get enough recovery time for your muscle cells to rid themselves of lactic acid which is a good 4-5 hours, then your good to lift.
_____________________________
body weight: 207
Bench: 355
Squat: 375
Deadlift:475
power clean:225
push press:255
snatch: 160
squat clean and jerk: 215
pull ups: 16
dips:26
handstand push ups:11
overhead squat: 135 8 rep max
sumo dl high pulls: 205
(in reply to gunshowkeough)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 1/3/2007 10:21:09 AM
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Johnny_G
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Solid theory and great straight-forward science to back it up. I think many people could and should benefit from it. You're definitely on the right path and at only 19 years of age, that's miles ahead of the game! Keep it up!
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Difficult takes a day, impossible takes a week.
(in reply to gunshowkeough)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 1/5/2007 8:31:20 AM
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gunshowkeough
Posts: 129
Joined: 6/29/2006
From: Mass
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I appreciate everyone taking the time to read the article and to understand it.
_____________________________
body weight: 207
Bench: 355
Squat: 375
Deadlift:475
power clean:225
push press:255
snatch: 160
squat clean and jerk: 215
pull ups: 16
dips:26
handstand push ups:11
overhead squat: 135 8 rep max
sumo dl high pulls: 205
(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 1/5/2007 11:29:37 AM
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danmirage
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To clarify...when you do cardio you basically have 2 possible energy pathways your body can use:
Glycogen (Anaerobic Glycolysis) and/or Fat (Aerobic)
Because glycogen is easier and provides more energy, the the body will use it if it can.
So if you do cardio first, you can deplete glycogen stores.
Now, when lifting weights your body basically has only 1 energy source available...
Glycogen, due to the insufficiency of time/oxygen to power the aerobic pathway.
If all the glycogen has been depleted prior to lifting, the body must access a secondary source for producing its own glycogen...
It can do this by catabolizing (breaking down) muscle (gluconeogenesis.)
After stimulating this catabolic environment, which requires catabolic hormones to be released...the body does not immediately return to an anabolic state.
In fact training in the gym is also potentially catabolic, this combination will inevitably lead to a severe catabolic state...
This is undesirable if the goal is to maximize anabolism (muscle gains) and minimize catabolism (muscle destruction).
quote:
I used to do cardio before lifting. I thought it was beneficial because it got the blood flowing and got the muscle cells active. I was completely wrong by thinking this.
You were not completely wrong. 5-7 minutes of warm-up cardio to increase the heart rate, body temperature, and get fluids and nutrients to the extremities prior to engaging in intense training is very valuable.
It should be noted that all energy systems are working simultaneously almost all the time, to some degree. It is not just either/or with the energy systems...
P.S.
You didn't mention that CP-ADP-ATP-CP is a cycle and CP is recycled!
Another interesting thing to look at is the lactic acid cycle...
< Message edited by danmirage -- 1/5/2007 11:31:56 AM >
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(in reply to Marc David)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 1/15/2007 6:58:19 PM
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danmac75
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Is it also true that for cardio, burning fat is much more efficient? A friend told me that the reason the first 20 minutes or so of cardio always sucks is because the body is burning glycogen, but when it starts to burn fat is when you get into the zone. I personally always find cardio much easier after lifting, and I usually do it to round out the hour at the gym.
However now I'm starting to do cardio on my off days. Does anyone have any objection to doing that? I am also curious as to what I should eat/drink pre/post cardio. I'm assuming, since cardio also burns glycogen, that I could have the same PWO meal I do after lifting, which is a .2g/lb body weight in simple carb (fruit high in fructose/glucose) and .1g protein/lb body weight with like 5g BCAAs.
(in reply to Italianangel)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 1/15/2007 8:56:55 PM
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danmirage
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quote:
A friend told me that the reason the first 20 minutes or so of cardio always sucks is because the body is burning glycogen, but when it starts to burn fat is when you get into the zone.
The body will burn carbs if it can. If they are depleted and you train aerobically, then you will burn a larger %fat.
Depends on the intensity of the cardio.
High intensity intervals burn a larger glucose% than fat% - looking at the total calories burned but more calories overall than low intensity and more fat overall per unit of time.
Low intensity cardio burns a larger fat% than glucose% - looking at the total calories burned but fewer calories overall than high intensity per unit of time.
quote:
I personally always find cardio much easier after lifting, and I usually do it to round out the hour at the gym
Probably because you are already warmed up and the energy systems are cranking!
quote:
I am also curious as to what I should eat/drink pre/post cardio. I'm assuming, since cardio also burns glycogen, that I could have the same PWO meal I do after lifting, which is a .2g/lb body weight in simple carb (fruit high in fructose/glucose) and .1g protein/lb body weight with like 5g BCAAs.
To spare muscle while doing a stand alone cardio session:
5g of BCAA immediatly before or .1g of whey protein per pound of bodyweight 30 min before and directly after.
Read more about cardio progression here:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/Progressing_your_cardio_for_ongoing_results/m_167907/tm.htm
_____________________________
My journal:
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_158705/mpage_2/tm.htm
Primers:
Gaining Mass
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111173/mpage_1/tm.htm
Losing Fat
http://www.discussbodybuilding.com/m_111175/mpage_1/tm.htm
(in reply to Italianangel)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 1/16/2007 4:16:22 AM
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danmac75
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Awesome reply. Thanks. I definitely want to spare muscle, actualy grow more muscle, so I'll definitely start drinking some whey before and after.
(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 1/16/2007 11:37:00 AM
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XtremeSki2001
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
High intensity intervals burn a larger glucose% than fat% - looking at the total calories burned but more calories overall than low intensity and more fat overall per unit of time.
Low intensity cardio burns a larger fat% than glucose% - looking at the total calories burned but fewer calories overall than high intensity per unit of time.
Hey Dan ... great link and post (you too Nick).
I found this forum via the max-ot program and I read what Marc David wrote ... I do the max-ot program to a "t" because I like short intense workouts over longer less intense workouts.
With that said, I'm curious what you and maybe Marc think of max-ot, but for cardio?
For example, in the link you provided it says:
Here's an example:
Week 1 — 3 x 30 minutes at level 5
Week 2 — 3 x 30 minutes at level 6
Week 3 — 3 x 30 minutes at level 7
Week 4 — 3 x 30 minutes at level 8
I just picked this example because I don't have a lot of time, so this fits me time contraint, but still delivers a good workout. But what if it was stepped to the next level, I guess it would still be HIIT or as some call it "max-ot cardio".
Rather then doing 30 minutes, you'd do 16 minutes and 1 minute balls-out and 1 minute rest ... for sixteen minutes. That's probably not the official plan, but similar to it. What do you think?
< Message edited by XtremeSki2001 -- 1/16/2007 11:57:33 AM >
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(in reply to danmirage)
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RE: Theory of doing cardio only after an intense streng... - 1/17/2007 4:55:59 AM
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danmac75
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danmirage
To spare muscle while doing a stand alone cardio session:
5g of BCAA immediatly before or .1g of whey protein per pound of bodyweight 30 min before and directly after.
Does anyone recommend a BCAA supplement to take here instead of protein? I planned out my meals for today and got almost exactly what I want in nutrients - 35% protein, nearly my body weight in grams, 45% Carbs, 20% Fats. As you can see, if I add 2 scoops of whey I'll add about 42g protein, which is about 45grams over my body weight in pounds. I've heard about supplements like Gakic, but I don't trust mustletech. What do you guys recommend?
(in reply to danmirage)
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